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Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:31:03 -
[1] - Quote
Guys, I had a pretty crazy idea, that I'm not necessarily advocating, just bringing up for discussion.
This idea is based on the desire to encourage more solo PVP, and to encourage pilots to fly bigger ships. For example, I've read a lot of threads and posts complaining about the current state of Battleships, and how they're underused.
What if all ships did not have the same base warp strength? (Why is the warp core of a tiny T1 frig just as strong as the warp core of a T2 Blops BS?) What if warp strength went up as your ship got bigger and shinier?
Let's imagine an EVE where warp strength is as follows:
T1 Frigs, T1 Destroyers: +1 (same as now) T2 Frigs, T2 Destroyers, T1 Cruisers: +2 T2 Cruisers, BCs: +3 T1 Battleships, T2 BCs: +4 T2 Battleships, Carriers, Dreads: +5 Supers: No change
Now... to make it so that warp disruption still works at all, my idea was to make warp disruptors/scramblers have a warp disruption strength of X(ship base)
So a T1 frig with a disruptor still has -1 point of disruption, and -2 points with a scram. A T2 cruiser has a -3 disruptor, and a -6 scrambler ...And so on This makes it so that a BS can point a BS, and BC can point a BC, etc, etc.
However... now a cruiser would need a scram to point a BS, or a disruptor and friend with another disruptor to point a BC.
This could greatly encourage people to fly larger ships in solo/small gang combat, by significatly reducing risk of destruction. You can still easily be tackled by a gang with scrams/disruptors, but it would make taking your 300+ mil T2 HAC out solo much more appealing, knowing that you can get away from some things you can't kill.
Some examples:
1. A solo HAC/Recon can tackle any of the ship classes equal to or "less" than itself, but if a single, fast frigate engages, you have a good chance of your expensive (supposedly more advanced) ship escaping. Any class equal to or smaller than you needs at least a scram, and a T1 frigate can't tackle a T2 cruiser on it's own.
2. A small gate camp would really benefit from having a BS in gang, due to it having a potential -4 disruptor, giving it the ability to tackle any of the other ship classes. (still has to lock it)
Note: Only scrams would turn of MWD still, not disruptors. And all scrams on all ships still turn off MWD, even if it isn't preventing warp.
This could be the most interesting change in EVE mechanics since warp to 0, or the worst idea ever.
Just interested in hearing discussion about this, or anything like this.
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
300
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:39:16 -
[2] - Quote
I like this idea.
Battleship don't care about your point. Battleship don't give a ****. Battleship goes where it wants. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1426
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:48:37 -
[3] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:I like this idea.
Battleship don't care about your point. Battleship don't give a ****. Battleship goes where it wants. Agreed. Battleships would become ideal "heavy tacklers" and would be less vulnerable to a single frigate while still remaining vulnerable to a frigate gang.
If this were to go through though, I'd propose that 'Ceptors and their T1 counterparts get a +1 base warp disruption strength (not warp core strength) role bonus.
I'm not sold yet, but it's an interesting idea.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:50:58 -
[4] - Quote
Forgot to touch on:
Specialty ships like Blockade Runners....
Let's say they would get a warp strength of +8, so T1 Battleships could become BR hunters, with enough dedication and specialization. With my stats it would require a scram, very fast locking, and to be in that short scram range. So BRs would still be slippery, but this could give a whole new meaning to the words "Pirate Battleship"
With a system like this you might see solo Battleships (T1, pirate, faction, anything!) running around looking for gudfights.
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Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:51:51 -
[5] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:I like this idea.
Battleship don't care about your point. Battleship don't give a ****. Battleship goes where it wants. Agreed. Battleships would become ideal "heavy tacklers" and would be less vulnerable to a single frigate while still remaining vulnerable to a frigate gang. If this were to go through though, I'd propose that 'Ceptors and their T1 counterparts get a +1 base warp disruption strength (not warp core strength) role bonus. I'm not sold yet, but it's an interesting idea.
Didn't think of ceptors, definitely agree with this. |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
300
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:59:12 -
[6] - Quote
You also need to maintain the distinction between Scram and Point:
Scram should still have the ability to turn off MJD and MWD. If you don't have enough "points" applied, then the modules are less effective (less speed bonus, longer spool time).
No amount of Point points (heh) should ever affect either module. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1426
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:00:19 -
[7] - Quote
Reina Xyaer wrote:Forgot to touch on:
Specialty ships like Blockade Runners....
Let's say they would get a warp strength of +8, so T1 Battleships could become BR hunters, with enough dedication and specialization. With my stats it would require a scram, very fast locking, and to be in that short scram range. So BRs would still be slippery, but this could give a whole new meaning to the words "Pirate Battleship"
With a system like this you might see solo Battleships (T1, pirate, faction, anything!) running around looking for gudfights.
+8 seems a bit much, and I think you mean DSTs since Blockade Runners don't get a warp core strength bonus.
Also, where would T1 haulers fall on this spectrum? (EDIT: And freighters, and ORE ships.)
For any existing ship with +2 warp core strength, I would just take the new base strength and add +2. So a Venture, for example, would get 3, requiring a T2 cruiser or BC to solo long-point one. Assuming T1 Industrials were to have a strength of 2, Blockade Runners would get a strength of 3, and DSTs would get a strength of 5.
Again, I'm not sold on this. It's a pretty radical change and I can see a lot of room for abuse. But I do find it interesting and I think it's worth discussing. I particularly like that it would help make Battleships more relevant.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Kabark
Caliburn Company Violent Declaration
25
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:07:30 -
[8] - Quote
I really like this idea. However I would rather T2 hulls have the warp strength of their T1 counterparts save for specific T2 ships like ceptors. But AF, EF and those kind of T2 frogs should stay at 1. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
238
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:23:21 -
[9] - Quote
As long as covert frigates would have -1, they're already a bunch of slippery bastards without that cloak... |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15190
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:31:17 -
[10] - Quote
And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Iain Cariaba
1084
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:43:04 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. This. Congratulations OP for proposing an idea that totally removes the only real contribution a week old newbie can make to a PvP fleet.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
"This reminds me - I must complain to my local butcher about him not catering to vegitarians." - admiral root responding to someone whining about too much PvP in Eve Online.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
799
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:49:35 -
[12] - Quote
Problem is larger ships are meant to be vulnerable to smaller ones its one of the great things about eve that some one who just started playing can fk over the day of someone in a capital
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Kabark
Caliburn Company Violent Declaration
25
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:54:45 -
[13] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. This. Congratulations OP for proposing an idea that totally removes the only real contribution a week old newbie can make to a PvP fleet. I don't think you even read the OP. A cruiser would have a warp strength of 2 which incase you don't know, it what a scram does. So yes, a month old new bro can still hero tackle cruisers and smaller. BCs and BSs would have a 3 and 4 strength so it would promote more frig gangs to tackle. This is a great idea to bring battleships back into low and null. However one thing he didn't cover was how bubbles would still affect ships. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
799
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Posted - 2015.02.25 22:58:53 -
[14] - Quote
Kabark wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. This. Congratulations OP for proposing an idea that totally removes the only real contribution a week old newbie can make to a PvP fleet. I don't think you even read the OP. A cruiser would have a warp strength of 2 which incase you don't know, it what a scram does. So yes, a month old new bro can still hero tackle cruisers and smaller. BCs and BSs would have a 3 and 4 strength so it would promote more frig gangs to tackle. This is a great idea to bring battleships back into low and null. However one thing he didn't cover was how bubbles would still affect ships.
yes a frig can still tackle a cruiser but what this does is put those disco battleships farming a gate at even less risk.
you can already add more points and stabs to a larger ship than a frigate
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3228
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:00:58 -
[15] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. This. Congratulations OP for proposing an idea that totally removes the only real contribution a week old newbie can make to a PvP fleet.
Nerf Newbies!!111 |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
303
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:04:11 -
[16] - Quote
That is very interesting. It looks like a nice way of making bigger ships more willing to be used. Instead of just one T1 frigate to tackle a whole battleship, you would need 5 of them with disruptors, or 3 with scramblers. Or 3 T2 frigs with disruptors or 2 of them with scramblers. The battleship would still be vulnerable to them because it has big issues hitting them. This could encourage the use of small frigate fleets. I like it! |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
300
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:16:10 -
[17] - Quote
I've given this a lot of thought, and I think the following proposal is a better place to start:
Frigate Class has 1 Warp Strength Cruiser Class (Including BC) has 2 Warp Strength Battleship Class has 3 Warp Strength All current modifiers to base warp strength remain unchanged. Warp Disruptors still have 1 strength and Scramblers still have two regardless of the ship using them.
One change to mechanics: Now, in order to stop the MWD or MJD of a Strength 3 or higher warp ship, it must be pointed with enough scram+disrupt to prevent warp. Any less, and the MWD/MJD module effect is lessened, but not disabled.
This change is still very disruptive to current gameplay, and a significant buff to large hulls, but it is less dramatic than the OP. It would also give a slight boost to Non-Attack BCs, who will hopefully die to frigates less. |
Paranoid Loyd
3961
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:19:30 -
[18] - Quote
Slow aligning BS can be bumped tackled fairly easily, this idea complicates a lot of things and doesn't actually change anything.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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God's Apples
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
558
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:23:38 -
[19] - Quote
Are you ******** how does this improve solo pvp? I don't see too many solo pvp ships with 3 ******* points fit to them so how do you realistically expect to kill anyone who isn't asleep in their chair or mentally inept?
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
300
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:27:23 -
[20] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:Are you ******** how does this improve solo pvp? I don't see too many solo pvp ships with 3 ******* points fit to them so how do you realistically expect to kill anyone who isn't asleep in their chair or mentally inept? The point is that frigates shouldn't be killing Battleships. Chase off, sure. Destroy with a small gang, yep. Kill solo? Easily? No.
But they do. A lot. One of the myriad of reasons that Battleships are nearly obsolete in their current form. |
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
300
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:30:33 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. Fit multiple Scram/Point.
The Hero Tackle Frigate Newbie lives. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
836
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:33:36 -
[22] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate.
This is why the OP's idea is not good.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
836
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:35:46 -
[23] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. Fit multiple Scram/Point. The Hero Tackle Frigate Newbie lives.
So, T1 frigates will now get 8 mids? The idea is bad and undermines some fundamental parts of Eve:
1. That everyone can contribute to the sandbox from the very beginning. 2. That having a bigger ship does not guarantee victory.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1817
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:42:30 -
[24] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:God's Apples wrote:Are you ******** how does this improve solo pvp? I don't see too many solo pvp ships with 3 ******* points fit to them so how do you realistically expect to kill anyone who isn't asleep in their chair or mentally inept? The point is that frigates shouldn't be killing Battleships. Chase off, sure. Destroy with a small gang, yep. Kill solo? Easily? No. But they do. A lot. One of the myriad of reasons that Battleships are nearly obsolete in their current form. frigates kill battleships because the battleship pilot was a moron
Ive known MANY battleship pilots, mostly on the other end of the fight, whove killed or chased off entire gangs of frigates
heck, I remember this one time, was fighting a Hyperion, I was flying a full neut racked Sentinel, with support from 2 interceptors, and 2 assault frigs, we were chasing that dude in circles for 15 minutes before he got soem lucky shots off and left most of us in armor or hull (so we bugged). couldnt do alot of damage to him due to local reps and ALOT of boosters and resists. dude was skilled, we made some ballsy/foolish calls, end of the day battleship still won that fight. |
Kabark
Caliburn Company Violent Declaration
25
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Posted - 2015.02.25 23:48:33 -
[25] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Kabark wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. This. Congratulations OP for proposing an idea that totally removes the only real contribution a week old newbie can make to a PvP fleet. I don't think you even read the OP. A cruiser would have a warp strength of 2 which incase you don't know, it what a scram does. So yes, a month old new bro can still hero tackle cruisers and smaller. BCs and BSs would have a 3 and 4 strength so it would promote more frig gangs to tackle. This is a great idea to bring battleships back into low and null. However one thing he didn't cover was how bubbles would still affect ships. yes a frig can still tackle a cruiser but what this does is put those disco battleships farming a gate at even less risk. you can already add more points and stabs to a larger ship than a frigate Lol sounds like you got trolled by someone in a battleship. Seriously though, how many battleships do you see flying around low and null? And if you say "oh I see them all the time," you must not go to low/null very often or you are using your corp with sov as a comparison which in both cases negates any arguement you have. Battleships are expensive, slow, and can barely hit cruisers. That is why no one flies them outside of highsec. But if you think battleships are fine the way they "disco camp," come to Teshkat in any battleship you want and prove me wrong. |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
300
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Posted - 2015.02.26 00:03:02 -
[26] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:baltec1 wrote:And just like that you kill the hero tackle frigate. Fit multiple Scram/Point. The Hero Tackle Frigate Newbie lives. So, T1 frigates will now get 8 mids? The idea is bad and undermines some fundamental parts of Eve: 1. That everyone can contribute to the sandbox from the very beginning. 2. That having a bigger ship does not guarantee victory. 2-3 mids and you can still contribute. Or you can scout. Or add some DPS. Web.
This does nothing but require an extra low slot to serve the exact same purpose against battleships or higher. One mid is still all that's required to stop a BC or a Cruiser (in my modified version of the OP's idea, anyway). |
Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2015.02.26 00:31:31 -
[27] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:Are you ******** how does this improve solo pvp? I don't see too many solo pvp ships with 3 ******* points fit to them so how do you realistically expect to kill anyone who isn't asleep in their chair or mentally inept?
I considered that obviously, that's why I did the X(ship base) for disruptors.
A solo ship in this system could tackle anything in it's own class or lower, with just one of either type of point. Anything bigger than it, needs either a scram, or a friend. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
800
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Posted - 2015.02.26 00:42:46 -
[28] - Quote
they were slowed down so that smaller ships could catch them and that they couldn't catch smaller ships that was the point of the warp speed change this undermines that
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2015.02.26 00:53:25 -
[29] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:I've given this a lot of thought, and I think the following proposal is a better place to start:
Frigate Class has 1 Warp Strength Cruiser Class (Including BC) has 2 Warp Strength Battleship Class has 3 Warp Strength All current modifiers to base warp strength remain unchanged. Warp Disruptors still have 1 strength and Scramblers still have 2 regardless of the ship using them.
One change to mechanics: Now, in order to stop the MWD or MJD of a Strength 3 or higher warp ship, it must be pointed with enough scram+disrupt to prevent warp. Any less, and the MWD/MJD module effect is lessened, but not disabled.
This change is still very disruptive to current gameplay, and a significant buff to large hulls, but it is less dramatic than the OP. It would also give a slight boost to Non-Attack BCs, who will hopefully die to frigates less.
Wait am I missing something? In this system, no single pilot could tackle a BS yes? Except in specialized tackle ships with a bonus to Point points, or a HIC.
At first I liked this, I saw it as a simpler, maybe less radical version of mine, but now that I realized this, I don't like it.
A solo BS would not be able to point another solo BS, I think it should.
Edit: except a solo ship with two scrams, which is not something I want to see happening |
Lugh Crow-Slave
800
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Posted - 2015.02.26 01:01:21 -
[30] - Quote
Reina Xyaer wrote:
Wait am I missing something? In this system, no single pilot could tackle a BS yes? Except in specialized tackle ships with a bonus to Point points, or a HIC.
At first I liked this, I saw it as a simpler, maybe less radical version of mine, but now that I realized this, I don't like it.
A solo BS would not be able to point another solo BS, I think it should.
Edit: except a solo ship with two scrams, which is not something I want to see happening
I think i have found the flaw in your thinking.
A battle ship should not be solo it is a fleet ship it is there to add extra support/firepower to a fleet not run around on its own.
this is why larger ships are made so vulnerable to small ones when on their own
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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