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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
91
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Posted - 2015.03.01 03:37:14 -
[61] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:Mag's why do you think it's more balanced that way? Everyone is in the same boat and it doesn't rely upon special rules. Well true, but what about new'ish pirates wannabes? Also gate guns become kind of absolutely useless.
Gate gun mechanics could remain the same, just remove the sec hit on aggression in lowsec and i'll be alright with that. Keep the pod sec hit is okay too. I usually do my best to shoot pods because the initial sec hit.
As far as receiving command green light for shooting suspicious civilians... I could show you raw footage too that will give good reason to both sides. @Bright Noa, Why do you draw examples from RL combat scenarios? I thinhk you are being naive if you think war is manners, protocol, and command. I know a few vets that would envy the luxury of delays or responsive aggression.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23530
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Posted - 2015.03.01 04:26:56 -
[62] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Sibyyl wrote: If you want aggressors to pick up Criminal flag, then you should be a miner. Sounds like farming is something you're into.
What methods of ISK generation do you not consider farming then? .01 station games? We all have to pay for our pvp somehow, unless you can consistently solo pimpfit faction ships or you buy PLEX every month. Get off your high horse about farming, everyone had to do it. As long as he's doing it in a combat ship and not a quad-stabbed merlin I see no problem.
Look. You are in lowsec. The reason why you want to open fire on the other person is because you think the other person doesn't care about their sec status and will preemptively open fire you anyway.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Both of you risk a sec status hit by aggressing first. Joining Factional Warfare is not some kind of safe haven for getting shot in lowsec.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
230
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Posted - 2015.03.01 05:22:48 -
[63] - Quote
On the surface, this almost sounds reasonable. But then you restrict it to non-FW people.
Frankly, if CONCORD cares about flagging anyone, then they should simply flag EVERYONE who enters it as suspect, FW pilots included.
Otherwise, the current system, as far as not flagging people, is perfectly fine.
edit to add: or.. hehe... CONCORD flags everyone and anyone who enters Low Sec as suspect. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
91
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Posted - 2015.03.01 06:24:09 -
[64] - Quote
Petrified wrote:On the surface, this almost sounds reasonable. But then you restrict it to non-FW people. Frankly, if CONCORD cares about flagging anyone, then they should simply flag EVERYONE who enters it as suspect, FW pilots included. Otherwise, the current system, as far as not flagging people, is perfectly fine. edit to add: or.. hehe... CONCORD flags everyone and anyone who enters Low Sec as suspect. And the flag does not go away until 15 minutes after you have left Low Sec.
This is a discussion about FW objectives, not low sec. Incidentally, this takes place in lowsec. Low sec is not entirely comprised of FW systems and FW does not always take place in low sec, with hostilities in null and high sec as well. As a neutral, you are entering, by choice, into militia compound. Being a neutral, you think you should keep some kind of anonymity while entering or wandering around military infrastructure? Now you are just being silly. You guys really want to make RL examples that are inconsistent to RL procedures within a CZ.
Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.
There is no grey area when the light of reason directs wisdom
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
80
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Posted - 2015.03.01 06:53:59 -
[65] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:
This is a discussion about FW objectives, not low sec. Incidentally, this takes place in lowsec. Low sec is not entirely comprised of FW systems and FW does not always take place in low sec, with hostilities in null and high sec as well. As a neutral, you are entering, by choice, into militia compound. Being a neutral, you think you should keep some kind of anonymity while entering or wandering around military infrastructure? Now you are just being silly. You guys really want to make RL examples that are inconsistent to RL procedures within a CZ.
Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.
oreb, you were part of AIDER before (and my senior) so i have high regards for you. the thing is, most of the time we try to compare things to rl is because it's the logical explanation.
with this suggestion, neutral venturing to plexes will be lessen, which means lesser targets for me. now, i joined FW to pewpew and NOT to do "things" in high sec.
so imho, more targets > high sec status. i would gladly sacrifice my sec. status for more targets.
now, my issue is gate/station gun aggro in aggressing neutrals, that is what needs to be changed.
Just Add Water
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
583
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Posted - 2015.03.01 09:08:59 -
[66] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then?
That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
583
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Posted - 2015.03.01 09:09:44 -
[67] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I only have one account so ganking for profit would be unworkable. You have heard of friends right? This gets trotted out every time someone is defending their alt-dependent gameplay. The reason people use alts is to fulfill a task so boring that no human player wants to do it full time.
macro-botter detected.
signature
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
583
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Posted - 2015.03.01 09:13:09 -
[68] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:..More on topic: If you want to orbit a button with the intention of getting fights why would you worry about a minuscule sec status hit that can be easily fixed with cheap sec status tags or a few minutes of ratting?
Paranoid, dear, you know you get paid for collecting those tags in the very space you they are active in.
Revelation for faction warfare people of the day:
Those tags are hidden in cargohold of ships you get paid to shoot down but they hide in a place called asteroid belt.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
149
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Posted - 2015.03.01 12:37:10 -
[69] - Quote
Just make fighting inside plexes sec hit free, neither the attacker nor the defender gets a sec hit (except for criminal acts, like killing pods). The mechanic exists today with attacking other player's properties.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
985
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Posted - 2015.03.01 12:39:19 -
[70] - Quote
Just make FW plexes little pockets of nullsec. CONCORD shouldn't be interested if no faction can claim sovereignty |
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
107
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Posted - 2015.03.01 14:04:50 -
[71] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then? That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight. And just as you pointed out, it is in the name "null-sec" grants null secuity status hits... so like I had suggested, shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits?
The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all. |
Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.03.01 14:44:10 -
[72] - Quote
Quote:Just make fighting inside plexes sec hit free, neither the attacker nor the defender gets a sec hit (except for criminal acts, like killing pods). The mechanic exists today with attacking other player's properties.
This is raw combat footage of Americans engaging Extremist forces. Note, they can see these guys have a rocket launcher. You know what they use to shoot down our choppers? Rocket launchers. If they're spotted before engaging, and fired upon, their lives could end. But they still wait for the green light from command before firing at them.
WARNING: People die in this video. Don't watch if you aren't prepared for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUl8FSupa-g
This is how real war works. If you want to play soldier, that's fine. But just because you don't like how war works, don't muck it up for people who enjoy playing war.
At around the 6:00 mark, they find an anti-air truck, which appears to be engaging friendly air craft. Someone a little earlier mentions that they engaged a truck that that had actually shot at them. The guys watching this truck wait until they have the green light before they shoot it, even though they can see it firing at someone, presumably allies.
It's an excellent example of why what you want is a bad idea. What if that person isn't hostile? What if they'e actually an ally? Maybe they're just exploring, or lost, or running from a pirate. It's likely they're a pirate themselves, but at that point, let them take the security status hit, and be prepared to return fire.
In real life, when armies begin indiscriminately attacking anything they don't immediately recognize as friendly, the world responds very negatively. Remember, you're there as a representative of a nation, not just as yourself. |
Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.03.01 14:46:05 -
[73] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:elitatwo wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then? That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight. And just as you pointed out, it is in the name "null-sec" grants null secuity status hits... so like I had suggested, shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits? The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all.
I dunno, dude, when I'm in down town St.Louis or in the wrong part of Chicago, do the cops punish me less severely if I attack someone because it wasn't a safer part of town? |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4095
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Posted - 2015.03.01 16:22:44 -
[74] - Quote
Would the suspect timer only begin countdown once you left a FW complex then?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23574
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Posted - 2015.03.01 16:33:32 -
[75] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote: Once again, OP is not suggesting neutrals be prohibited from entering plexes, only that they be flagged accordingly so there is no penalty to what is obviously hostile intent.
Everyone else who aggresses somebody in lowsec takes the same sec status hit that FW people do. OP is suggesting preferential sec status hit formula since he happens to be in FW. "Obviously hostile intent" isn't so obvious since you are complaining about taking a sec status hit for aggressing in the first place.
Did you have a suggestion for sec status calculations for all of lowsec in general instead of FW? People would be more receptive to that. But then again, it might make it even more likely that people will be piling into your plexes trying to shoot you.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23574
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Posted - 2015.03.01 16:35:02 -
[76] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits?
The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all.
Not a bad idea, this one.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
109
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Posted - 2015.03.01 16:43:50 -
[77] - Quote
Bright Noa wrote:Dangeresque Too wrote:elitatwo wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:Wouldn't it be easier (and more fun) just to remove the standing hits from low-sec entirely, then? That place is called nullsec. You get null security status hit for starting a fight. And just as you pointed out, it is in the name "null-sec" grants null secuity status hits... so like I had suggested, shouldn't "low-sec" then grant lower security status hits from "hi-sec" with the highest security status hits? The system should step down, from hi, to low, to null. Currently hi and low are the same, and then null has none at all. I dunno, dude, when I'm in down town St.Louis or in the wrong part of Chicago, do the cops punish me less severely if I attack someone because it wasn't a safer part of town? No, police should still punish you to the full extent, because they are there... or are you saying their are zones publicly declared by the police/govt that they don't enter or work in and therefore won't take any action against anything that was done there?
If there were actual place where police were not allowed to go or arrest people or pursue justice then yeah, you would have a point. But there isn't as pertains to this discussion. The police aren't in low-sec, but they are in chicago and st louis.
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Ben Ishikela
19
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:44:18 -
[78] - Quote
Bright Noa wrote:(...)(video)(...) interesting. I watched it and i still dont want EVE to reflect the real world or in any way come close to it just to be closer to it. Also there is some problem with the comparison: amongst other things there is: there are no reporters or civilians inside a plex inside this game. if there would be, they would be cloaked. impossible in real life atm. ....
I still go with that until another better fix is implemented and realised into the game, there should be suspect flag on activating ANY acceleration gate. => incursion more fun & lvl4 mission more fun & highsec less safe => more content and population in other areas of space. That is a uniform rule.
But on the long run i would not like it, as it does not push people out of highsec vicinity. If there would be a market mechanic involved in the availability of highsec/any missions and therefor everyone has to speedrun them against each other, that would be nicer. competition spreads population, right? (then we can rate truesec on the number of security missions/anomalies run there for more flexible and interesting map) and then id like to scale sec hits with truesec. (1.0 same as now. 0.8 only 80% and 0.3 only 30% and so on.) but until then: suspect as quickfix.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
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Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:56:52 -
[79] - Quote
Ben Ishikela wrote:Bright Noa wrote:(...)(video)(...) interesting. I watched it and i still dont want EVE to reflect the real world or in any way come close to it just to be closer to it. Also there is some problem with the comparison: amongst other things there is: there are no reporters or civilians inside a plex inside this game. if there would be, they would be cloaked. impossible in real life atm. .... I still go with that until another better fix is implemented and realised into the game, there should be suspect flag on activating ANY acceleration gate. => incursion more fun & lvl4 mission more fun & highsec less safe => more content and population in other areas of space. That is a uniform rule. But on the long run i would not like it, as it does not push people out of highsec vicinity. If there would be a market mechanic involved in the availability of highsec/any missions and therefor everyone has to speedrun them against each other, that would be nicer. competition spreads population, right? (then we can rate truesec on the number of security missions/anomalies run there for more flexible and interesting map) and then id like to scale sec hits with truesec. (1.0 same as now. 0.8 only 80% and 0.3 only 30% and so on.) but until then: suspect as quickfix.
In the video provided, they were worried that they'd be shooting allies. There, friendly fighters working on a budget look like the same terrorists they're fighting. In a plex, one capsuleer looks the same as the other. You don't know if they're friendly or not.
If you don't want a game about warfare and ships to reflect how warfare and ships are, go play a game that isn't about warfare and ships, is my general response. People who LIKE ships have really no where to go for ship gaming. There's Navy Field, STO, vaguely star wars, and EVE. TOR doesn't allow cap ships. Navy Field is dated. STO is arcadey and doesn't reflect realistic combat at all. I know it's a sci-fi and an MMO but what you're asking is for the game theme to be thrown out the window for your convenience. |
Ben Ishikela
20
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Posted - 2015.03.02 05:02:41 -
[80] - Quote
Bright Noa wrote: In the video provided, they were worried that they'd be shooting allies. There, friendly fighters working on a budget look like the same terrorists they're fighting. In a plex, one capsuleer looks the same as the other. You don't know if they're friendly or not.
In EVE however its simple: Unfuck your overview . and set those standings. also better shoot if unsure, its no permadeath and noone is watching, that can fire me. with advanced aliance diplomacy it might get interesting, but we are talking about basic FW here, right?
Bright Noa wrote:If you don't want a game about warfare and ships to reflect how warfare and ships are....... doesnt apply. isnt a consequence of my last statement. You push this discussion somewhat offtopic. offtopic = tell someone to not play if he not like it. i want to improve what is good and has potential to be even greater. my credo: gameplay and fun is more important then realism. (i.e. physix of spaceflight in eve) => what mechanic gets us the most out of it? i believe its getting more players to come to lowsec and be shootable. by suspect flags or by making highsec bad etc. But realy: let players take the sec hit! let them grow up!. Suspect flag in plexes will be a bad change in the long future and only good immediatly, although id like it. especialy if there would be lesser incentive to leave highsec forever.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
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Ben Ishikela
21
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Posted - 2015.03.02 05:06:15 -
[81] - Quote
+1 for suspect flag on activating ANY acceleration gate.
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
119
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Posted - 2015.03.07 13:39:05 -
[82] - Quote
I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... |
Iain Cariaba
1107
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Posted - 2015.03.07 16:16:13 -
[83] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
180
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Posted - 2015.03.07 16:42:48 -
[84] - Quote
I've not read this thread.
It has been proposed before (once by me). At the end of the discussion I agreed suspect flagging is not reasonable.
What is reasonable is no pilot receives a suspect flag or a sec status penalty when aggressing first inside a plex.
They should just be considered no mans land and therefore "enter at your own risk". Then militia pilots are not penalised for defending themselves whilst doing there job.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Bright Noa
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2015.03.07 18:19:05 -
[85] - Quote
I don't know if we're going to be able to agree if you think stuff which makes no sense from any perspective outside of making it much easier to avoid penalties, and strongly destroys realism and immersion in to the environment, is the preferable choice.
Your actions have consequences. You're playing an aspect of the game meant to allow people to participate in the lore wars. There's other ways to go play war if you don't like how war works and don't want to play realistically then go somewhere else. Join an alliance and fight their wars for them by their rules. EVE's a sandbox, they keep saying. You're trying to force conformity here on a very specific part of EVE, because how this stuff actually works doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to others who might like this system and find it makes sense. |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
141
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Posted - 2015.03.07 18:26:22 -
[86] - Quote
conscientious objectors to factional warfare and opportunist violent protesters have sandbox rights too you know.
Real eyes Realize Real Lies
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
120
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Posted - 2015.03.08 20:28:17 -
[87] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Dangeresque Too wrote:I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are. Yeah, but try being some random civilian and entering and just hanging around inside an active military base... which is kinda what these plexes are right?
Maybe they give you a countdown to leave and if you are still present then you have been warned and now will be fired upon.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
142
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Posted - 2015.03.08 20:32:05 -
[88] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Dangeresque Too wrote:I had just done some pvp in lowsec and the FW plexes were pretty much the only places we found people or got found by people.
We sat in some of those things for a while and the NPCs never cared to target any of us. Might be more interesting if the NPCs shot everyone that wasn't in their militia... The NPCs are part of a military, not a militia. Most militaries of civilized nations have rules against shooting civilians, which we capsuleers not in militias are. Yeah, but try being some random civilian and entering and just hanging around inside an active military base... which is kinda what these plexes are right? Maybe they give you a countdown to leave and if you are still present then you have been warned and now will be fired upon. They can do this now, in local. Just have someone willing to take one for the team by following through with the threat, chip in and buy her/him their sec back.
Real eyes Realize Real Lies
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
120
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Posted - 2015.03.08 23:43:35 -
[89] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:They can do this now, in local. Just have someone willing to take one for the team by following through with the threat, chip in and buy her/him their sec back. I'm confused... why would you have to buy someone's sec status back up in order for FW NPC's to give a warning to any 'civilians' that entered their restricted site? Its a military facility where civilians have no purpose to be there. I understand that the navy is honorable and can't just go blasting away at civilians, but it is a military site so have the NPCs give them a warning that they should leave and if they don't then the NPCs start re-securing their military installation.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
143
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Posted - 2015.03.09 00:08:04 -
[90] - Quote
Oh sorry, wasn't clear. Was sayin players should blow up civilians and take the sec hit.
Real eyes Realize Real Lies
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