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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1102
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:05:20 -
[211] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Don't have much to say about this except this question: Why is it this company (that is known for heavy handed nerfing of everything in sight on the slightest whim) spending all this time (soon to be measured in YEARS) tip-toeing around Ishtars and Sentry Drones?
cos they have stopped heavy nerfing these days, its more tiny nerfs over many patches at best or the odd little nerf and move on to something else and leave it neglected .
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1102
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:12:30 -
[212] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cut sentry drone range by half.
not sure by half, gardes might be a little too short range at that point, but certainly reducing optimal range by a good 20% would make sense, gardes might need a little more falloff though, kind of what there doing too bouncers but all round.
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1611
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:20:00 -
[213] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cut sentry drone range by half. not sure by half, gardes might be a little too short range at that point, but certainly reducing optimal range by a good 20% would make sense, gardes might need a little more falloff though, kind of what there doing too bouncers but all round.
People use blasters and you are telling me a base opti of 15KM at all V for a garde II would not be enough? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
794
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Posted - 2015.03.02 21:14:41 -
[214] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Harvey James wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cut sentry drone range by half. not sure by half, gardes might be a little too short range at that point, but certainly reducing optimal range by a good 20% would make sense, gardes might need a little more falloff though, kind of what there doing too bouncers but all round. People use blasters and you are telling me a base opti of 15KM at all V for a garde II would not be enough?
To be fair, those ranges are heavy drone territory. |
Heinrich Rotwang
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
61
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Posted - 2015.03.02 22:29:51 -
[215] - Quote
How to balance sentries in a nutshell:
- one-size-fits-all sentries + small sentries + medium sentries + heavy sentries
Problem solved.
You are trying to achieve the same result by fiddling with the ship boni.
PS: and btw, the answer to the question, whether the problem of the Ishtar is in the ship or in the sentries, is: both. It's two unrelated problems that happen to be combined in the Ishtar when fielding sentries. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2804
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Posted - 2015.03.03 00:49:56 -
[216] - Quote
afkalt wrote:To be fair, those ranges are heavy drone territory. Apparently Gardes are for POS bashes, not mobile PvP.
JUSTK is recruiting.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
177
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Posted - 2015.03.03 03:01:26 -
[217] - Quote
Tineoidea Asanari wrote:Both of these thoughts tell me you never fought with Ishtar something bigger than a rat. Drones in fleets - or PvP in general - are passive, as you want to control who is attacked. And with the limitation of 25 drones per bunny, the usage of dronebunnys has mostly stopped at all. So 2 points you want to "remove" are points, that would have no effect at all. And you would be wrong. I not only fly the Ishtar as PvE but I have another character that flies logi in a PvP low sec corp and we NEVER have the troubles you all are talking about. Granted that we never face the fleet sizes that may show up in nul but we have still easily defeated fleets of up to 30 Ishtar plus support ships, and that does give me a solid base for understanding the Ishtar and it's uses.
All of that set aside if you would carefully read my post I did not say that my changes in combination with those recently announced "would" solve the problem I stated that it was "the next logical step." Because at the end of the day PvP and PvE pilots all share a common pool of ships and modules, and the needs of those PvE players MUST be considered in any changes that are made. The reductions to control range, damage output, tracking and the rest if implemented would have a significantly larger impact on the Ishtar's use as a PvE ship than it would in the PvP environment.
In the end IF the more radical changes being proposed are required to achieve balance then so be it we will go down that path. But for now small and incremental changes that have as little impact as possible on the legitimate PvE uses of the Ishtar / sentry drones need to be tried first and removing assist and aggressive mode are two of those low PvE impact possibilities. |
Crynsos Cealion
Matari Munitions The Obsidian Front
24
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Posted - 2015.03.03 03:06:50 -
[218] - Quote
Perhaps the real fixing of Ishtars needs to be something more drastic, like changing their role entirely.
The previous fix was something you could feel in both PvE and PvP, but obviously not enough to balance out the many advantages of sentries with enough drawbacks to make them not quite as powerful.
The main issue lies probably not with the damage Ishtars are able to deal, but with their ability to apply too much of said damage at far too long ranges with far too much precision, while being almost entirely able to decide damage type, being largely EWAR immune and having the unique ability among T2/T3s to project damage from a position without actually having to be at said position.
Short of a remote ECM Burst-like EWAR type to have a chance based ability to randomly disconnect drones (and keep them disconnected for a while), not much will change that.
So how about cutting the most problematic bonus completely out of the Ishtar, the sentry range and tracking bonus?
Ishtars can be still plenty powerful via using heavy drones, though in this case the damage is generally harder to apply, delayed and easier to kill off than in the case of sentries. They would still have a lot of DPS for a HAC out to a good range, but this type of damage application is much more limited and has a good amount of drawbacks, while being more faithful to the "Drones everywhere" instead of "Drones turned turrets everywhere" way the Ishtar should be.
It might also make heavy drones much more viable to fly with in general, just like how the Gila increased the usefulness of Medium Drones massively.
Ishtars are usually used as kiting ships, but are actually the slowest among the HACs, so maybe give them a speed bonus to compensate for the lost drone bonus? Active repping would be also a possibility, but seeing as there is already the Deimos, this may not be such a good idea. A turret bonus probably wouldn't make much sense either, though it is a possibility. |
Tineoidea Asanari
Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion
39
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Posted - 2015.03.03 07:44:04 -
[219] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:And you would be wrong. I not only fly the Ishtar as PvE but I have another character that flies logi in a PvP low sec corp and we NEVER have the troubles you all are talking about. Granted that we never face the fleet sizes that may show up in nul but we have still easily defeated fleets of up to 30 Ishtar plus support ships, and that does give me a solid base for understanding the Ishtar and it's uses.
You just said that I'm right. You never fought something bigger than a rat whilst using an Ishtar. You dont even understand the problematics that are existing with the current version of the Ishtar, as you proposed changes that wouldnt change anything about your carebear behaviour and "nerf" aspects that are not the problematic part of Ishtars Online right now. You aren't even polite enough to read this thread, otherwise you would have known the issue about ishtars is their "drop and forget" mechanic. No, you just want to scream that nobody has a right to nerf your PvE ship and you dont give a damn about PvP balancing.
Quote:In the end IF the more radical changes being proposed are required to achieve balance then so be it we will go down that path. But for now small and incremental changes that have as little impact as possible on the legitimate PvE uses of the Ishtar / sentry drones need to be tried first and removing assist and aggressive mode are two of those low PvE impact possibilities.
I have not seen one fleet since the removal of the old drone assist that used this (besides PvE in wormholes). Also, AGAIN, NOBODY uses aggressive drones with Sentrys in PVP. Your view as "logi" on an "alt" is completly irrelevant, as you are not understanding at all, how these fleets work and what they do when they do it.
As I said before, you only care about your PvE content. You dont care at all about balancing PvP, thus you propose changes that not affect your PvE content and are changes that just change stuff, without any reason. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
796
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Posted - 2015.03.03 08:19:55 -
[220] - Quote
Tineoidea Asanari wrote:As I said before, you only care about your PvE content. You dont care at all about balancing PvP, thus you propose changes that not affect your PvE content and are changes that just change stuff, without any reason.
Plus the only things I've seen survive 30+ ishtars volleying at them long enough to hold reps are the poster children of well balanced ships - linked T3s. Other ships, reps can catch, but there is bleed through the hardened tier.
You're looking at a 60k volley from those numbers. |
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
270
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Posted - 2015.03.03 09:20:44 -
[221] - Quote
How to fix Ishtars: Give them a natural counter. Right now they out range literally anything that isn't shooting directly into their T2 resists, which is the major problem.
Ishtars are naturally weak to lasers but there is no medium laser platform that has the range to hit them and the laser battleships aren't viable due to Tachyons taking too much fitting.
Give the zealot a second optimal bonus instead of the cap bonus or even the damage bonus, and you've got a great counter. Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
622
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Posted - 2015.03.03 09:43:59 -
[222] - Quote
As has been said by a few others:
I feel without any kind of EWAR to attack a drone ship with we will always have the Sentry Drone problem.
We need an EWAR type that can reduce a ships drone control range or jam their connection to the drones. This sounds like it could even be the secondary EWAR for Caldari. It would fit in.
If not this kind of option then.....
Drop the sentry drone bonus from the Ishtar and the VNI and concentrate on making heavy drones very useful to them.
Make the heavy drones super fast and track very well by dropping the sentry drone tracking and optimal bonus for a secondary drone velocity and tracking bonus. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
796
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:15:07 -
[223] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers?
Because LOLScorch, unfortunately.
Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow. |
ImageQuest
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:19:34 -
[224] - Quote
I can run 99% of ded plexes with ishtars in easy mode. If you give me tengu I will rather take ishtar because its faster and easier. Now tell me how are they not broken. |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:37:24 -
[225] - Quote
ImageQuest wrote:I can run 99% of ded plexes with ishtars in easy mode. If you give me tengu I will rather take ishtar because its faster and easier. Now tell me how are they not broken. Same is true for nearly every ship able to shoot over 40km with good damage. Are all those ships 'broken'? |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
270
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:47:13 -
[226] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Xequecal wrote:Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Because LOLScorch, unfortunately. Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow.
I fail to see what 36km Scorch would break that 30km Scorch already doesn't break. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
622
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Posted - 2015.03.03 11:03:20 -
[227] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:afkalt wrote:Xequecal wrote:Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Because LOLScorch, unfortunately. Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow. I fail to see what 36km Scorch would break that 30km Scorch already doesn't break.
It breaks any laser ship without a range bonus trying to use beams (a long range weapon) to counter it. It would essentially hamstring any medium range ship. Which they already almost do.
Range bonuses are a very powerful bonus. Double range bonuses to the same attribute are bonkers OP.
Giving split range bonuses isn't so bad though. For example: The Muninn would probably do great with a 10% bonus to projectile optimal and falloff (and an extra gun slot) |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
270
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:07:37 -
[228] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Xequecal wrote:afkalt wrote:Xequecal wrote:Rails can get double optimal bonuses, why not lasers? Because LOLScorch, unfortunately. Ed: Cerbs with rainbow damage might manage it, but they dont have full rainbow. I fail to see what 36km Scorch would break that 30km Scorch already doesn't break. It breaks any laser ship without a range bonus trying to use beams (a long range weapon) to counter it. It would essentially hamstring any medium range ship. Which they already almost do. Range bonuses are a very powerful bonus. Double range bonuses to the same attribute are bonkers OP. Giving split range bonuses isn't so bad though. For example: The Muninn would probably do great with a 10% bonus to projectile optimal and falloff (and an extra gun slot)
Double range bonuses aren't insanely OP. The Eagle and Vulture certainly aren't "insanely OP," there's no reason to think a Zealot with two range bonuses would be. The Tengu is overpowered, but it's not because of the range subsystem.
In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
589
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Posted - 2015.03.03 22:37:06 -
[229] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:... In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from.
Tach-Mare?
The Nightmare with one tracking enhancer and one signal amplifier II has 100/130km range with Aurora L (not 100% sure with the range but I can look it up if you want) with the singnature of a hurricane.
If you give your Nightmare pilot some strong x-tinct pills, she will no longer be underestimated as a pvp boat.
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BTDubs
Terran Dynamis
11
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Posted - 2015.03.03 23:35:15 -
[230] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. The ability for Ishtars to drop sentries and the get out at the slightest hint of a fleet coming for them has given the Ishtar doctrine it's popularity. Many players complain about Ishtars for this reason and is a valid reason why Ishtars shouldn't have bonus's for sentries, or should not even be allowed to use sentries. Ishtars can do quiet a bit of damage, but the risk really isn't there for the pilots using them because they can just leave the field so easily.
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Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Phoenix Naval Systems
106
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Posted - 2015.03.04 01:20:16 -
[231] - Quote
With this change the ishtar would still be the undisputed top dog. Why lets take a quick look at the advantages and disavangates the ship gets.
+ battleship like damage + battleship ranges + application bonus + weapons can be ewar immune + ammo less + selectable damage + Fairly fast + t2 resists + Plenty of fitting space + extended drone range + weapon doesn't account for owners movement + damage protection can be instant + plenty of drone bay + large base shield ehp + high shield recharge rate + drone hitpoints
- drones can be killed - drones can be abandoned
... there are so many pros to the cons and when you look at the cons its almost laughable how benign they are, and that goes double for sentries.
A serious change to most any of those will do a lot more to bring the ship in line. The best ones in my opinion would be to make sentries have some kind of ammo, or make them affected by ewar like normal weapons. |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.03.04 07:04:18 -
[232] - Quote
+ battleship like damage // ever seen a BS with such low dmg? + battleship ranges // depends on the sentries used. Lower dmg with the BS- range ones + application bonus // as most ships for their weapon system + weapons can be ewar immune // they arent + ammo less // not enough cargo bay on your favorite ship? + selectable damage // same as missiles + Fairly fast / / slowest base speed of all HAC + t2 resists // its a HAC + Plenty of fitting space //badest one of all HAC. Enough though + extended drone range // its their primary weapon + weapon doesn't account for owners movement // sometimes good sometimes bad + damage protection can be instant // as with all systems except missiles + plenty of drone bay //All Hac got plenty of cargo bay for ammo + large base shield ehp // its in the lower half of all HAC + high shield recharge rate // a normal one + drone hitpoints // they REALLY need it! Except sentries
- drones can be killed - drones can be abandoned
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15367
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Posted - 2015.03.04 07:35:19 -
[233] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
+ever seen a BS with such low dmg? - Yes, they have the same or more as most BS doctrines. + depends on the sentries used. Lower dmg with the BS- range ones - same damage + as most ships for their weapon system - Their tracking and application is much better + they arent - Depends + not enough cargo bay on your favorite ship? - We do run out of ammo on long ops + same as missiles - missiles can be firewalled + slowest base speed of all HAC - fast enough to avoid bombing runs and mitigate incoming damage. + badest one of all HAC. Enough though - They dont have to make room for weapons, so they do have the most fitting room. + its their primary weapon - its also overpowered on such a hull. + sometimes good sometimes bad - always good
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Spugg Galdon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
622
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Posted - 2015.03.04 11:00:51 -
[234] - Quote
What's the actual bottom line to this though?
If my math is correct I see a simple shield kite fit Ishtar (with Bouncer II's) go from 620 dps @ approx 100km (drone control range) drop to 515 dps at the same range.
I still feel this is simply too much.
No other HAC can perform like this. It's battleship offensive performance with cruiser application and HAC mobility (warp speed, MWD sig reduction and speed).
Battleships still struggle on grid to go toe to toe with this and they have all of their other drawbacks on top. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
590
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Posted - 2015.03.04 12:13:28 -
[235] - Quote
I just remembered something from the past and please forgive me if I bring up the past every once in a while.
There used to be a weapon system with the exact range and damage requirement to account for this. Some of you might remember it, I quite seem to make head or tails but anyone who does, please jump in at any time.
Anyhow this weapon system was some kind of a long range one that made the tengu and a battlecruiser popular, I just cannot remember which one..
Well the tengu had a subsystem for that weapon system and if I remember correctly the Cerberus and the tengu could have a range of 130km with that weapon system, not more but less 130km was a maximum value for that range.
The sad thing is, it was deleted from EVE by someone and I always like to jog his memory too
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Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
270
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Posted - 2015.03.04 12:23:42 -
[236] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Xequecal wrote:... In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from. Tach-Mare? The Nightmare with one tracking enhancer and one signal amplifier II has 100/130km range with Aurora L (not 100% sure with the range but I can look it up if you want) with the singnature of a hurricane. If you give your Nightmare pilot some strong x-tinct pills, she will no longer be underestimated as a pvp boat.
Ok, the pirate BS that costs more than four Ishtars works. Do you have any realistic suggestions? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1613
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Posted - 2015.03.04 14:03:06 -
[237] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:elitatwo wrote:Xequecal wrote:... In my opinion, the extremely niche situation of laser ships being unable to fit a direct counter to other laser ships is worth suffering in order to give the Ishtar an actual counter. They could remove the sentry damage bonus from the Ishtar entirely, but you still have the problem that, with the exception of the Apocalypse, the Ishtar outranges literally everything that doesn't deal kin/therm damage. Unfortunately, the Apocalypse isn't a viable hull because you need 3 fitting mods to fit Tachyons to it. Hell, it needs a CPU mod or faction hardeners to fit Megabeams. None of the Minmatar BS will work either, Proton L has a 96km optimal which is well outside the 130km range that Ishtars can shoot from. Tach-Mare? The Nightmare with one tracking enhancer and one signal amplifier II has 100/130km range with Aurora L (not 100% sure with the range but I can look it up if you want) with the singnature of a hurricane. If you give your Nightmare pilot some strong x-tinct pills, she will no longer be underestimated as a pvp boat. Ok, the pirate BS that costs more than four Ishtars works. Do you have any realistic suggestions?
In the category of "can do it but is a stupid idea", I nominate welp oracle. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
271
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Posted - 2015.03.04 14:23:02 -
[238] - Quote
Quote:Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
Please also add:
5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
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Rothar Luke
Have Guns Will Travel SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2015.03.04 15:42:13 -
[239] - Quote
I don't think this will change the use of the Ishtar in fleets enough. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
803
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Posted - 2015.03.04 17:29:38 -
[240] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:
+ever seen a BS with such low dmg? - Yes, they have the same or more as most BS doctrines. + depends on the sentries used. Lower dmg with the BS- range ones - same damage + as most ships for their weapon system - Their tracking and application is much better + they arent - Depends + not enough cargo bay on your favorite ship? - We do run out of ammo on long ops + same as missiles - missiles can be firewalled + slowest base speed of all HAC - fast enough to avoid bombing runs and mitigate incoming damage. + badest one of all HAC. Enough though - They dont have to make room for weapons, so they do have the most fitting room. + its their primary weapon - its also overpowered on such a hull. + sometimes good sometimes bad - always good
You forgot can fit an oversized prop mod ON TOP of a completely normal fit WITHOUT fitting mods. |
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