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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
813
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:34:08 -
[1] - Quote
As discussed on the o7 show last night, there are a number of balance changes coming to EVE Online in Scylla. If you want to see who's blood CCP Nerf Bat is dripping with, you should read this new dev blog from CCP Rise.
CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro
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Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
207
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:08:40 -
[2] - Quote
So unfair to tease me with the blue Ishtar photo.
Otherwise, the changes seem quite appropriate
EDIT: FIRST! |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
216
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:12:22 -
[3] - Quote
Would be interesting to see how much of the Battleship-pvp-damage is being done by drone ships, i.e. domis and rattlesnakes. Still think BS and BC should receive a little better warp speed. They would still be cought easily by things like ceptors etc. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1644
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:13:10 -
[4] - Quote
The only buff battleships really need is a nerf to bombers
Some warp speed would be nice to have though
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
Contact me for details :)
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BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
959
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:13:43 -
[5] - Quote
" None. We are pretty happy with the state of class variation right now and see no reason to make changes."
Ok guy |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
408
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:15:02 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:Note: Shout-out here to CSM member mynnna for a great internal discussion on this topic. He raised the point that if you look at these weapon systems on their own, rather than comparing the ships using them, they look very balanced. It would follow then that the problem is more about Tengu, Eagle and Vulture than about rails. However, we can never look at weapon systems or ships without taking the other into consideration. The relationship between cap use of energy weapons and ships with cap use bonuses for energy weapons is another good example where trying to look at one without the other causes problems. We are therefore happy to consider balancing via the weapons or the ships depending on which fits the situation best. In this case, we are happy to use rails as the avenue because it is much simpler for us to design and you to adjust to.
"mynnna made a very, very good point" "so we ignored it" |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5889
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:16:08 -
[7] - Quote
The "awesome graph of PVP damage by class" needs some explanation of the various colors.
I'm also not convinced that total PVP damage, which is dominated by large fleet engagements, is a good metric for balancing ships that now suck at small-gang warfare due to lose mobility.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5889
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:16:54 -
[8] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
"mynnna made a very, very good point" "so we ignored it"
Yeah, I caught that too :)
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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l0rd carlos
TURN DOWN. The Camel Empire
1174
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:21:27 -
[9] - Quote
FUCK YEAH! DEATH TO SKYNET!
But anyhow, CCP Rise do you like White Russian? (The drink) Because I do, and maybe you like it too.
German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1465
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:23:05 -
[10] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:The only buff battleships really need is a nerf to bombers
The parenthetical toward the end strongly implies that that's on its way.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
763
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:25:09 -
[11] - Quote
Charts are nice, but you REALLY need to start putting legends on them. |
ArmyOfMe
Alekhine's Gun The Periphery
415
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Give battleships immunity to the scramblers mwd effect and you would once again see this shipclass be used a lot more for solo stuff as they could once again compensate for tracking issues by using transversial to their advantage.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1007
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:28:11 -
[13] - Quote
rise if you look at the ship damage graph and you can clearly see two much more popular stealth bombers than the other 2 by and order of 100x or so if im reading this right [assuming different colours = different ships]
i know bomber internal class balance isn't really a priority, but the nemesis and manticore really need some love and the purifier really needs some hate imo
the fitting in particular is very different on these ships for no real reason - i'd suggest maybe standardising their fitting to a degree and giving purifier -1 mid +1 low while giving nemesis the opposite - that way you end up with a 4/2 bomber, two 3/3 bombers and a 2/4 bomber and maybe we'll see some variety
but like i said bomber internal balance probably isnt a priority
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1347
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:28:28 -
[14] - Quote
Regarding the image for PVP damage per class: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png
Over what time period does this graph cover? I find the battleship damage quite hard to believe if it covers a period of time over a year or so.
e: also, if it isn't too much to ask, could you expand the battleship and combat battlecruiser graphs to show which colors represent which ships?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4086
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:31:55 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:We took a fresh look at this issue to make sure we were on the same page as a game design department and this is how we approached it: we started by going over usage metrics and once again saw that clearly that both classes are getting heavy use and are being effective by any measure we have available. I would like to see what the numbers are in null-sec, low-sec and high-sec for comparison. I suspect that you're going to see quite a bit of divergence.
Quote:Note: look at those GÇ£Drake eraGÇ¥ heavy missiles, goodness gracious! Indeed. Also note how heavy missiles are now at the bottom of the chart, so it would seem that a slight damage/application buff is in order.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
514
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:31:57 -
[16] - Quote
"BATTLECRUISER AND BATTLESHIP VIABILITY
Problem: Strong community sentiment that battleships and battlecruisers are not viable currently and that the biggest reason is warp speed changes."
So I was with you until I read this.
Put the decloak mechanic back on bombers and you'll suddenly see increased use of Battleships. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1007
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:32:25 -
[17] - Quote
when you consider on average a bs does a lot more damage individually than smaller ships, the graph starts to make sense. if there was close to equal representation, you'd expect bs to be a lot higher than say cruisers right
the real standout in the graph for me is stealth bomber internal class balance and attack battlecruisers being absolute trash - a class entirely about damage being so low on a damage chart is kind of worrying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
412
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:36:47 -
[18] - Quote
i have been polling anyone i can find about why battleships aren't used anymore and not one person has said "warp speed"
every single one has said "bombers"
who were these people you polled who told you the problem was warp speed? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1347
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:39:06 -
[19] - Quote
Capqu wrote: the real standout in the graph for me is stealth bomber internal class balance and attack battlecruisers being absolute trash - a class entirely about damage being so low on a damage chart is kind of worrying
Eh, the stealth bomber graph isn't that odd to me -- explosive and EM damage are the best types of damage to shoot. I am not sure that is so much a problem with stealth bombers as it is indicative of resist holes being the primary driver of which bomb choice to pick (and the fact that mixing bomb damage actively neuters your bombing damage output.)
If a significant percentage of that damage was torpedo damage, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but I am pretty confident that the greater majority of bomber damage comes in the form of bombing runs.
This is especially so considering that the main fleet ships are caldari (harpy, tengu) and gallente (ishtar), whose T2/T3 resists favor kin/therm significantly.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Halycon Gamma
Perkone Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:42:29 -
[20] - Quote
What exactly do the colors for the lines mean in that damage graph? I ask because knowing may remove some of the doubts I have over the assumption that overall damage number is relevant when discussing Battleships. For instance, how much of that damage occurred during a bloc war battle. If battleships are seeing heavy usage there which inflates their damage statistics, but almost no usage outside of that specific use case... then it's possible there's a problem when an entire class of subcap ship is only pulled out for defending or attacking at a coalition level. |
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4086
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:43:03 -
[21] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:I'm also not convinced that total PVP damage, which is dominated by large fleet engagements, is a good metric for balancing ships that now suck at small-gang warfare due to lose mobility. I'm entirely in agreement here. In addition to the request for what the individual colour bars mean, a breakdown between null-sec, low-sec, high-sec and wormhole space would paint a better picture.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Alty McAltypants
Eretz Israel
5
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:46:59 -
[22] - Quote
Overall, yes, good... but....
- The Ishtar changes still don't change that fact is incredibly diverse ship which is because of drone bandwidth and not drone bonuses imo.
- With respect to t3 changes, if you don't call this a "full pass rebalance" then I don't know what it is. Could we call it "a semi-full non hard bypass on the non 100% rebalance but possibly rebalance(?)" rebalance?
- "Skynet". Meh it has has been "borked" since Red Moon Rising, ahhh, memories of the TheKiller8 RMR flash video. Good fix.
- Medium rails. Holy molly those missiles, who was responsible for that ....
- Battleships and battle cruiser viability. Disagree with you on this point, when you say "Finally, we talked about warp speed changes and once again considered whether the tactical depth added is worth the inconvenience of roaming in battleships and agreed that it is." Just to highlight that Eve is the only game I have ever played where inconveniencing the end user/player is a valid balancing decision
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
4945
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:48:17 -
[23] - Quote
The ship class break down graph is segmented by weapon type, not ship type. The damage for bombers then is split between torps and bombs, not between different bomber types.
Sorry for leaving that color segmentation without explaining it. Didn't want to go into that much detail but I should have just removed the segmentation.
@ccp_rise
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1009
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:48:24 -
[24] - Quote
Querns wrote:Capqu wrote: the real standout in the graph for me is stealth bomber internal class balance and attack battlecruisers being absolute trash - a class entirely about damage being so low on a damage chart is kind of worrying
Eh, the stealth bomber graph isn't that odd to me -- explosive and EM damage are the best types of damage to shoot. I am not sure that is so much a problem with stealth bombers as it is indicative of resist holes being the primary driver of which bomb choice to pick (and the fact that mixing bomb damage actively neuters your bombing damage output.) If a significant percentage of that damage was torpedo damage, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but I am pretty confident that the greater majority of bomber damage comes in the form of bombing runs. This is especially so considering that the main fleet ships are caldari (harpy, tengu) and gallente (ishtar), whose T2/T3 resists favor kin/therm significantly.
yeah you're right, about the damage types being massively better but the problem imo is the ships are also massively better
lows are much more useful than mids for bombing [align, warp strength] and the fitting issue i just don't understand [purifier has massively better fitting than the other 3]
don't get me wrong i fuckin love the purifier https://zkillboard.com/character/1107018389/topalltime/ but i know it really isnt a choice within the class. if you're bombing you take a purifier, end of story
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
4945
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:49:53 -
[25] - Quote
Quote:Just to highlight that Eve is the only game I have ever played where inconveniencing the end user/player is a valid balancing decision Twisted
It's pretty inconvenient for me to have to run back to lane in League, or wait for units to finish in Starcraft, or not see through walls in Counterstrike, yet for some reason the developers insist on not changing it.
@ccp_rise
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1009
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:50:27 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:The ship class break down graph is segmented by weapon type, not ship type. The damage for bombers then is split between torps and bombs, not between different bomber types.
Sorry for leaving that color segmentation without explaining it. Didn't want to go into that much detail but I should have just removed the segmentation.
no please, more graphs - even without labels and explanations they're cool to look at and give a lot of insight imo so thanks for putting it together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4086
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:50:59 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:The ship class break down graph is segmented by weapon type, not ship type. The damage for bombers then is split between torps and bombs, not between different bomber types.
Sorry for leaving that color segmentation without explaining it. Didn't want to go into that much detail but I should have just removed the segmentation. Could you please list the breakdown for weapon type for Battlecruisers and Battleships?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Coelomate
Gilliomate Corp
14
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:54:16 -
[28] - Quote
That PVP damage across ship class graph is very distorted, because cruiser-sized hulls are the prevailing meta and used more or less interchangeably depending on the wealth and skillpoints of the group putting together the fleet - explicitly because battleships and battlecruisers are so unappealing.
If you lump cruiser sized hulls together, I believe the problem becomes clear and obvious, like so: http://i.imgur.com/z4ynWV9.png
Personally I feel the heart of the problem is bombers, though slow warp speed certainly doesn't help.
Love,
~Coelomate
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1098
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Posted - 2015.02.27 15:55:24 -
[29] - Quote
nerfing T3's resists/HP and removing rigs would certainly help bc's and battleships become more viable, but also some HAC's are a little strong and also some pirate cruisers (looking at gila and gurista ships in particular) need a nerf.
I would love an explanation why T3's in general should have T2 resists at all???
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
216
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:01:21 -
[30] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:nerfing T3's resists/HP and removing rigs would certainly help bc's and battleships become more viable, but also some HAC's are a little strong and also some pirate cruisers (looking at gila and gurista ships in particular) need a nerf.
I would love an explanation why T3's in general should have T2 resists at all???
Because without they would be shyt. |
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