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Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:09:38 -
[1] - Quote
I've just been looking at the ancillary shield boosters and ancillary armour reppers and I'm wondering why there is such a disparity between them. Looking at them with base stats and loaded with charges it seems to work out like this
small ancillary armour 26 hp/s small ancillary shield 26 hp/s
medium ancillary armour 51.75 hp/s medium ancillary shield 48.6 hp/s
large ancillary armour103 hp/s large ancillary shield97.5 hp/s
I can see that obviously the armour repper has a very slight advantage in hp/s, but the shield reppers have no cap use at all, and on top of that can fit more than one. Have I missed something here? |
Leiron Thali
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:23:08 -
[2] - Quote
What's the issue here? You simply pointed out the differences and seem to have answered any potential questions |
Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:26:30 -
[3] - Quote
Leiron Thali wrote:What's the issue here? You simply pointed out the differences and seem to have answered any potential questions
The issue is why such an imbalance? |
Paranoid Loyd
3979
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:32:42 -
[4] - Quote
They are two different systems that work differently, comparing one stat linearly is not possible as there are other factors involved.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:35:54 -
[5] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:They are two different systems that work differently, comparing them linearly is not possible.
They use charges and/or cap to regain hp. Why can we not compare them directly? |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract O X I D E
379
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:38:20 -
[6] - Quote
Fivethumbs wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:They are two different systems that work differently, comparing them linearly is not possible. They use charges and/or cap to regain hp. Why can we not compare them directly? Because shield reps use cap boosters so they don't use ship cap, and armor reppers use nanite paste and cap.
Also, they're different modules and different modules have to be different, else they're the same. |
Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:42:36 -
[7] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:Because shield reps use cap boosters so they don't use ship cap, and armor reppers use nanite paste and cap.
Also, they're different modules and different modules have to be different, else they're the same.
They can be different yet balanced. As it stands the armour repper gets the bum deal by quite a margin, AND you can only fit one. |
Odethia
Rondass
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:44:56 -
[8] - Quote
Yea Ancillary shield booster are way better than Armor rep: oversized module, stack, no capacitor. So good compared to regular shield boosters that they are pretty much the only active shield tank used in pvp nowadays. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7543
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Posted - 2015.02.27 22:01:53 -
[9] - Quote
On the matter of equivalency...
- shields have the Ancillary Shield Booster (ASB) ---- requires only cap boosters and draws no ship power until those charges are gone. ---- multiple can be fitted on the same hull (CPU and PG allowing).
- armor has the Ancillary Armor Repper (AAR) and the Reactive Armor Hardener ---- requires capacitor AND nanite paste... but will consume the same amount of capacitor regardless. ---- is limited to one such module per ship. ---- the Reactive Armor Hardener was made to compensate for the ASBs being "better in every conceivable way."
What does this mean?
- ASBs are better for "burst tanking" but quickly fall apart when the charges are gone and ship capacitor becomes an issue. - AARs are also good for "burst tanking" but have a greater degree of longevity compared to ASBs... plus, armor can achieve MUCH higher resistances than shield can without expending (too much) extra capacitor or overloading.
"The Skillpoint System and You"
"How did you Veterans start?"
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1041
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Posted - 2015.02.27 22:13:45 -
[10] - Quote
Also cargo space is a factor as well. Cap charges are huge whereas nanite paste is almost limitless so it's much better for long roams in hostile space where you can't dock or buy more. |
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Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.27 22:19:47 -
[11] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:What does this mean?
- ASBs are better for "burst tanking" but quickly fall apart when the charges are gone and ship capacitor becomes an issue. - AARs are also good for "burst tanking" but have a greater degree of longevity compared to ASBs... plus, armor can achieve MUCH higher resistances than shield can without expending (too much) extra capacitor or overloading.
I'm not buying that, certainly in the case of the small modules. The RAH uses nearly as much cap as the small AAR, so if anything makes things even worse! |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
147
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Posted - 2015.02.27 22:24:08 -
[12] - Quote
When your oversized ASB runs out of charges you can't run it or one cycle absolutely destroys your cap. Once your AAR runs out of paste it continues to run without destroying your cap.
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Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2015.02.27 22:26:11 -
[13] - Quote
A few additional points. Shields will passively repair while you are armor repping. Not so in reverse. Rigging choices are better for AAR (time and amount) vs ASB (time only).
I use both systems on different ships, so I have no real bias. Would be nice to see same fitting req (1 unit per ship, or multiple for all), and fixing the cap ammo size/benefit issue (should be same as cap booster)
Otherwise working as intended, imho. |
Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.27 22:31:28 -
[14] - Quote
*Double posted while editing, sorry! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7543
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Posted - 2015.02.27 23:10:47 -
[15] - Quote
Fivethumbs wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:What does this mean?
- ASBs are better for "burst tanking" but quickly fall apart when the charges are gone and ship capacitor becomes an issue. - AARs are also good for "burst tanking" but have a greater degree of longevity compared to ASBs... plus, armor can achieve MUCH higher resistances than shield can without expending (too much) extra capacitor or overloading. I'm not buying that, certainly in the case of the small modules. The RAH uses nearly as much cap as the small AAR, so if anything makes things even worse! Admittedly... ships smaller than cruisers tend not to use the Reactive Armor Hardener.
But here is another thing; look at...
- the cycle duration for a small AAR and a medium ASB (despite what the name says, they are both "frigate sized"). ---- the AAR has a cycle time of ~4.5 seconds ---- the ASB has a cycle time of ~3 seconds.
- the capacitor cost for a small AAR and a medium ASB. ---- the AAR consumes ~40 capacitor power regardless if it has nantie paste in it or not ---- the ASB comsumes ~182 capacitor when the cap booster charges are gone.
Put together this means that the AAR is FAR more "efficient" when it comes to using capacitor power... meaning it can run for MUCH longer even when the nanite paste has been depleted. Again... once the cap booster charges loaded in an ASB are gone... it has problems.
(NOTE: all this is assuming max skills)
"The Skillpoint System and You"
"How did you Veterans start?"
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Clara Barcelo
Deadly Fingertips
4
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Posted - 2015.02.27 23:17:39 -
[16] - Quote
Also note you can carry FAR more Nanite then you can Cap boosters. Nanite also has the added bonus of repair heat damage. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2015.02.27 23:28:58 -
[17] - Quote
Oh, and why no ancillary hull-repper? Based on the active hull-rep modules, it might just get 1 or 2 hp/sec
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Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.28 00:18:08 -
[18] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:
- the cycle duration for a small AAR and a medium ASB (despite what the name says, they are both "frigate sized"). ---- the AAR has a cycle time of ~4.5 seconds ---- the ASB has a cycle time of ~3 seconds.
- the capacitor cost for a small AAR and a medium ASB. ---- the AAR consumes ~40 capacitor power regardless if it has nantie paste in it or not ---- the ASB comsumes ~182 capacitor when the cap booster charges are gone.
Put together this means that the AAR is FAR more "efficient" when it comes to using capacitor power... meaning it can run for MUCH longer even when the nanite paste has been depleted. Again... once the cap booster charges loaded in an ASB are gone... it has problems.
(NOTE: all this is assuming max skills)
After the charges have run out for the AAR you are using 40 Gj for 8.6 hp rep per second, that's not going to be much help. If you stop it you have to wait 60 secs for the reload, while the dual ASB setup has 48.6 hp/s per repper which can be alternated across reload cycles. Add to that the fact that armour reps hit at the end of the cycle and shield at the start. This is all assuming basic numbers without skills.
I understand the point about cargo space, but assuming a 1v1, where this would most likely be used, by the time charges are an issue the fight is over.
I really don't think it's balanced at all. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
73
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Posted - 2015.02.28 00:19:22 -
[19] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:Oh, and why no ancillary hull-repper? Based on the active hull-rep modules, it might just get 1 or 2 hp/sec
Love for hull repperes. This issue been raised and pointed so many times as of now. Sooner or later we got them fixed. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1042
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Posted - 2015.02.28 01:18:03 -
[20] - Quote
Fivethumbs wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:
- the cycle duration for a small AAR and a medium ASB (despite what the name says, they are both "frigate sized"). ---- the AAR has a cycle time of ~4.5 seconds ---- the ASB has a cycle time of ~3 seconds.
- the capacitor cost for a small AAR and a medium ASB. ---- the AAR consumes ~40 capacitor power regardless if it has nantie paste in it or not ---- the ASB comsumes ~182 capacitor when the cap booster charges are gone.
Put together this means that the AAR is FAR more "efficient" when it comes to using capacitor power... meaning it can run for MUCH longer even when the nanite paste has been depleted. Again... once the cap booster charges loaded in an ASB are gone... it has problems.
(NOTE: all this is assuming max skills)
After the charges have run out for the AAR you are using 40 Gj for 8.6 hp rep per second, that's not going to be much help. If you stop it you have to wait 60 secs for the reload, while the dual ASB setup has 48.6 hp/s per repper which can be alternated across reload cycles. Add to that the fact that armour reps hit at the end of the cycle and shield at the start. This is all assuming basic numbers without skills. I understand the point about cargo space, but assuming a 1v1, where this would most likely be used, by the time charges are an issue the fight is over. I really don't think it's balanced at all.
So assuming one tiny part of the game, you've decided this is imbalanced.
ok
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Fivethumbs
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.28 01:27:18 -
[21] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
So assuming one tiny part of the game, you've decided this is imbalanced.
ok
I'm perfectly willing to believe it's fine, but for the life of me I can't see how. That's why I started the thread and asked. The ASB just seems massively overpowered. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
147
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Posted - 2015.02.28 02:39:10 -
[22] - Quote
Fivethumbs wrote: After the charges have run out for the AAR you are using 40 Gj for 8.6 hp rep per second, that's not going to be much help. If you stop it you have to wait 60 secs for the reload, while the dual ASB setup has 48.6 hp/s per repper which can be alternated across reload cycles. Add to that the fact that armour reps hit at the end of the cycle and shield at the start. This is all assuming basic numbers without skills.
I understand the point about cargo space, but assuming a 1v1, where this would most likely be used, by the time charges are an issue the fight is over.
I really don't think it's balanced at all.
Couple things; 1) Alternated across reload cycles doesnt work. With regular charges a MASB holds 7 charges, 9 with Navy. A 3 second cycle time means you have 21 and 27 seconds of use before its out of charges. Giving you a grand total of 42 to 54 seconds of use or a gap between reloads of 33 to 39 seconds. (Edit: no heat)
2) The SAAR can hold 8 nanite repair paste and at 4.5 second cycle you get 36 seconds of use, you can run the repper longer with charges than a MASB with regular or Navy charges.
3) SAAR uses 5pg and 5 CPU. MASB uses 12pg and 50 CPU
4) If your SAAR runs with charges or dry, it uses 40gj (or 8.9gj/s). If the MASB runs out of charges it uses 178gj (or 59.4gj/s). Or in relative frigate terms, one chargless MASB cycle will use >50% of your total cap. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
145
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Posted - 2015.02.28 04:10:32 -
[23] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote: 1) Alternated across reload cycles doesnt work. With regular charges a MASB holds 7 charges, 9 with Navy. A 3 second cycle time means you have 21 and 27 seconds of use before its out of charges. Giving you a grand total of 42 to 54 seconds of use or a gap between reloads of 33 to 39 seconds. (Edit: no heat)
there might be times where your calculation is correct, but as ive run my asb ships in 1 vs 1 situation i didnt let them auto repeat, often had multiple seconds before i injected another cycle and that can make up for it |
Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
33
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Posted - 2015.03.01 00:12:42 -
[24] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:Oh, and why no ancillary hull-repper? Based on the active hull-rep modules, it might just get 1 or 2 hp/sec
because there's no duct tape charges to load them with....... yet |
Plato Forko
Forko Nanorobotics
135
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Posted - 2015.03.01 00:42:53 -
[25] - Quote
Most of the stuff has been mentioned. The other things I like about AAR vs ASB when it comes to frig PvP:
1) DC benefits mostly armour and hull. Since shield mods are CPU-hungry, mounting a decent ASB tank on a ship might mean having to leave off the DC, which means that you'll be left completely dependent on winning the fight within <12 cycles (9 booster charges + that extra cycle or two before your cap runs dry) because there will be very, very little armour or hull left to fall back on.
2) AAR tank means mid slots are free for the requisite prop mod, scram and web a brawler's gotta have.
3) An ASB tank will require shield rigs, and those will blow up sig. An AAR tanker can good use of nano pump rigs, and those neither affect sig nor do they reduce speed like the other armour rigs do
There's nothin' like skating away from a fight with the hull on fire, some mods burned out and a cargohold full of loot.
See my terribad blog for stories.
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