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Sandra Tseng
THE MISPHIT'S
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Posted - 2006.10.13 09:54:00 -
[31]
What you are asking for is to make Heavy Drones the I-Win Button.
If they are effective at killing Battleships, they would ruin cruisers in seconds and isntantpop friggs.
You can not have a weaponsystem that is just as good vs all ship classes.
That would be like having torpedoes that hit frigs, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships for full damage 
_
Killed my sig AGAIN! :p
http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg |
Laythun
Undercover Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.13 10:02:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: marioman
Originally by: Laythun
right.
For all u nub hats the athink heavy drones should hit frigs easily. reality check
NO HEAVY WEAPON SYSTEM SHOULD PWN ALL CLASSES OF SHIPS.
the fact that heavies can is broken, drones were changed a while ago to try and make them more akin to the other weapons systems, and i dont think they went far enough.
Heavy drones should NOT be the only option to kill all. if so we may aswell rebuff torps to pwn ceptors and frigs again.
Heavies should have a damn hard time of hitting frigs whether moving or not.
I can 1 volley a ceptor in my blastathron with 7x t2 neutrons using an x-5 proto web and 5x SW-900 web drones....why cant my heavies in my domi even lay a scratch on a ceptor webbed with 2 webs?
cos ur not moving nub and niether would the ceptor. ugh.
Proud Member of the Anti Whine 14 |
Laythun
Undercover Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.13 10:04:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sandra Tseng
What you are asking for is to make Heavy Drones the I-Win Button.
If they are effective at killing Battleships, they would ruin cruisers in seconds and isntantpop friggs.
You can not have a weaponsystem that is just as good vs all ship classes.
That would be like having torpedoes that hit frigs, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships for full damage
_
thats the point,at the moment they are, and im sure the devs brought in all this tracking on them and that to limit it, but it still not gone far enough imho.
They should do an overhaul again like that of the great missile nerf of 05
Proud Member of the Anti Whine 14 |
Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.13 10:54:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Kaeten on 13/10/2006 10:56:31
Originally by: Laythun
Originally by: Sandra Tseng
What you are asking for is to make Heavy Drones the I-Win Button.
If they are effective at killing Battleships, they would ruin cruisers in seconds and isntantpop friggs.
You can not have a weaponsystem that is just as good vs all ship classes.
That would be like having torpedoes that hit frigs, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships for full damage laythun, they don't insta pop cruisers and frigs. If you thin krealisticly drones are like mini FRIGS. They should hit cruisers and frigs fro mtime to time.
_
thats the point,at the moment they are, and im sure the devs brought in all this tracking on them and that to limit it, but it still not gone far enough imho.
They should do an overhaul again like that of the great missile nerf of 05
Laythun your gonig overboard on this becasue mainly I know you fly cruisers msot of the time and yes heavy drones hurt. However is jamming fair? should a cruiser be able to jam a bs meaning killing it?
About drones themselfs, drones are like mini frigs, they SHOULD be able to hit cruisers and hit frigs from time to time.
0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment |
Therin Dracul
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Posted - 2006.10.13 12:09:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Therin Dracul on 13/10/2006 12:09:23
Do you have drone navigation trained up?
Last I heard that was bugged again and affecting orbit speed.
(and thus screweing drone tracking)
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Shanee
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Posted - 2006.10.13 12:37:00 -
[36]
I have around 5 mill sp in drones.
When I webb an npc elite frig and send my small drones they need around 3 to 4 times longer than they wound need without the webbing.
I think thats real strange that a modul which should help hitting the target has such a negative effect.
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scarshapedstar
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Posted - 2006.10.13 12:51:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sandra Tseng
What you are asking for is to make Heavy Drones the I-Win Button.
If they are effective at killing Battleships, they would ruin cruisers in seconds and isntantpop friggs.
You can not have a weaponsystem that is just as good vs all ship classes.
That would be like having torpedoes that hit frigs, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships for full damage
_
You have no idea what he's talking about.
Go to a belt and sic 5 heavies on a frig rat. They will own it in seconds. Now, web the rat, and be baffled as the drones won't even be able to break the tank. Omg, wtf, etc? Drones are better at hitting moving targets?
Well, sometimes.
The reason for this, of course, is: if the frigate is moving at 300 m/s and the drone is chasing it, then the transversal velocity is pretty close to 0. Once you put the brakes on with a web, though, the drones actually start orbiting at breakneck speed, and the trans goes up to 250 or something. Miss-a-palooza, versus a small target like a frigate.
People have proposed lowering the drone orbit velocity, but isn't that kind of a nerf? I'd rather see a frigate moving fast and explode than see my own drones get blown up because people who don't understand tracking decided they'd rather have slow and crappy drones.
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Khajit Smitty
Minmatar
MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.13 13:13:00 -
[38]
Originally by: scarshapedstar
People have proposed lowering the drone orbit velocity, but isn't that kind of a nerf?
How about fixing tracking in the first place, makes complete logical sense.
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LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy
Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.10.13 16:45:00 -
[39]
Originally by: xenodia
Just out of curiosity.... what level is your drone sharpshooting at ? And are you positive they were missing, and the enyo wasnt simply tanking them ? Which type of drones were they ?
Because if you were shooting an enyo with wasps or ogres, chances are they WERE hitting, and you just didnt have enough damage to break the enyos tank because you were hitting his resists. Even if you were using berserkers, he could easily have had an explosive hardener on to plug his resist hole.
The enyo is a ver hardy little ship if set up for it (as long as its not nossed). In a big 3 way furball a couple weeks ago, I was in my enyo and tanked a raven and about 5 t1 frigates long enough for my gang mates to kill them all (we were all in frigates/ceptors/AFs). They simply couldnt do enough damage to break the tank, and the only reason they finally started to was that one of them got a clue and put a couple NOS on me. By then it was too late though as most of their frigates were dead and the raven followed not long behind.
I was in a dom i using Ogre II's. he had no cap. so he wasnt tanking.. just not getting hit.
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marioman
Caldari
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.13 16:52:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Laythun
Originally by: marioman
Originally by: Laythun
right.
For all u nub hats the athink heavy drones should hit frigs easily. reality check
NO HEAVY WEAPON SYSTEM SHOULD PWN ALL CLASSES OF SHIPS.
the fact that heavies can is broken, drones were changed a while ago to try and make them more akin to the other weapons systems, and i dont think they went far enough.
Heavy drones should NOT be the only option to kill all. if so we may aswell rebuff torps to pwn ceptors and frigs again.
Heavies should have a damn hard time of hitting frigs whether moving or not.
I can 1 volley a ceptor in my blastathron with 7x t2 neutrons using an x-5 proto web and 5x SW-900 web drones....why cant my heavies in my domi even lay a scratch on a ceptor webbed with 2 webs?
cos ur not moving nub and niether would the ceptor. ugh.
But what ur saying is my blasters shouldnt hit at all either, b/c they are BS guns vs a small target. What ur saying is that NOTHING bigger than frigate weapons should be able to kill a frigate. When infact thats not true, as ANYTHING can slaughter any sized target as long as its webbed, except drones are the exact opposite, even when using lights.
No need to resort to name calling either it just makes u look immature. U might want to check some1's character age b4 calling them a nub also.
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Ewa Quillam
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Posted - 2006.10.14 18:49:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Khajit Smitty
Edited by: Khajit Smitty on 13/10/2006 09:42:43
Tracking is broken, the mathematics around it are broken.
Dont believe me, fine, jump in a rapier, toss 4 webbs on it with 3x 720mm or even 650mm Artillery projectiles then webby an inteceptor,shuttle,t1 frigate once that is done. Start orbitting the target and whatch your lovely turrets miss 9 out of 10 times.
Fine you dont believe me, you got unlucky, no worries. Do the same on the same target EXCEPT this time stop your ship, dont move, dont orbit.... just sit there, and watch your lovely turrets rip that poor target to absolute shreds.
Oh and 4 webbys on a target = 0m/s.
DO NOT RESPOND ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU HAVE DONE THIS TEST IN THE GAME !!!!
I believe this works as intended and that's because of the transversal velocity factor is reducing ur accuracy (tracking speed).
I u move and the target sits and if u sit and the target moves, it's the same. But if u move and the target moves nearly the "same way" (as in one running and the other chassing) it's not the same. The physics it's there and it's well implemented.
It works the same for guns on ships and for drones.
Reading the tracking guide again (and understanding it) won't hurt.
(And then I say u got to love missiles and the new upcoming Nighthawk :D). |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.14 21:02:00 -
[42]
do the drone recall - attack thing repeatedly like someone said
or web one of your own drones
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Papermate
Gallente
Undercover Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.14 21:11:00 -
[43]
Actually for correct physics.
If you orbit something that is still your guns should have zero tracking to do.
.
"Master of Papercuts"
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El Alamein
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.15 00:02:00 -
[44]
tech 2 berserkers launched from a ebil moros seemed to hit my taranis very well while i was webbed,
and since when do enyos rely on drones?
how are your drone skills?
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Zorthal Darendal
Gallente
Templars of Space
CORE.
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Posted - 2006.10.16 15:02:00 -
[45]
I haven't had an opportunity in PvP yet, but belt ratting and on missions, my t2 heavies have no problem killing ANY npc unwebbed. When the frig's start to orbit me they are not going really fast while orbiting, and once I have finished with the BS's, the die very quickly when attacked by my drones. And I am not using any drone mods.
To infinity...
...and back before lunch
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Lydia Shadowbane
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Posted - 2006.10.16 15:54:00 -
[46]
well fact is that your orbit speed adds to your transversal speed which is utter crap. period.
transversal speed isnt the same as orbit speed cause if i orbit you I move in circles around you and your position grades don't change while I move as my ship turns itself. the guns dont have to turn and so its basically a BUG.
ballance is another thing but basically a large weapon systhem should hit a medium ship or even a small ship if it has the right support modules on the target. otherwise the support modules would be useless.
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Xandria Pearl
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.16 16:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Papermate
Actually for correct physics.
If you orbit something that is still your guns should have zero tracking to do.
.
What he said.
The turrets should have no problem tracking anything when your ship is in a stable orbit around another as your guns should not need to readjust their aim.
Along with the need to fix several things in drones (helloooooo? increase scoop range already plz), this is another thing on the to-do list 
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Wheya
Amarr
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2006.10.16 16:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Papermate
Actually for correct physics.
If you orbit something that is still your guns should have zero tracking to do.
.
True. The system in Eve is simplified to make easier calculations and less stress on servers. We must deal with it and it's possible to adapt.
To the problem of the OP. His drones would have hit the target if they would not orbit but chase the target. So webbing was his mistake. To be fair: if he would not have used the webber the victim would have easily reached the stargate with high speed and escaped as well.
I say drones are overpowered with zero grid, zero cpu, zero cap usage and still doing damage once you are jammed. Heavy drones already have a way too great tracking from my point of view. They should be consired as battleship tools and should have way more problems to hit cruisers.
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Brain Trust
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Posted - 2006.10.16 16:21:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Brain Trust on 16/10/2006 16:21:56
he was laughing at you.
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.16 18:26:00 -
[50]
I don't seem to have a problem hitting with drones of any size, although Heavies don't hit the frigs solidly. This applies to webbed or unwebbed targets. However, I would suggest that if the only type of drone you wish to carry are heavy drones, sacrifice midslots for a Drone Tracking mod or two.
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Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr
Pirates of Destruction Union
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.16 20:32:00 -
[51]
The perceived tracking problem comes from the calculations used. Instead of taking radial velocity (i.e the rate at which the angle of target's path relative to yours is changing) which is measured in rad/s (much like your tracking rate), they use transversal velocity (velocity off of the normal).
In actuality, an attacker orbitting a stationary target should have zero tracking issues, while the defender's weapons should be trying to track the attacker.
Don't believe me?
Have a friend stand up and point his arm at you. You walk in a circle around him and point your arm at him. Your arm doesn't move, right? His does.
This is why my Crusader orbiting a stationary Retribution (assuming same weapons and tracking skills) should have no problems hitting, while he misses me every so often (not the case, we will miss each other equally because the tracking calcs are based on transversal). A light drone should be able to do the same thing.
A heavy drone on the other hand, while it should have no problems tracking me, it should have problems hitting me based on its RESOLUTION. Resolution is basically me with Parkinson's walking around my buddy. Sure I can do my best to point my arm right at him, but I'm still going to miss a lot.
I know resolution has nothing to do with the shakiness of a turret (it's actually the gun's ability/inability to calculate the precise location of the target within a given area), but it's the best analogy I could come up with.
Because of the WAY tracking is computed, the drones orbit speed works against them. That's why your heavies don't have as much an issue when they're approaching a target or when the frigate is left unwebbed (no web means the drones aren't orbitting all the time, they spend some of the time chasing the vessel ergo low transversal); the only thing they have to grapple with is their resolution.
So basically, if you change the way tracking is calculated, it will be more "realistic" and frigates and drones will blast the ever-living snot out of anything (including each other), and snipers will ruin peoples's days even more so than they already do (because just as in life, they don't have to track at distance).
Right now, the devs are doing their best to balance EVE out. I think that's why the tracking is calculated the way it is. Keeps heavy everything from raping everything smaller (with the exception of nos; probably why a nerf is coming). As for why a heavy blaster can annihilate a frig despite poor tracking; even a broken clock is right twice a day (think about it).
God, that was more than I wanted to type.
---
Hey hey let's go kenka suru!
Taisetsuna mono protect my balls!
Boku ga warui, so lets fighting!
LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!! |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Cheers Restaurant and Bar
Nova Republic
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Posted - 2006.10.17 01:06:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis
God, that was more than I wanted to type.
But thx 2 u 4 typing it all out, ne way.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Byzan Zwyth
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.17 02:24:00 -
[53]
from what I have seen you are better off dropping the webber and using a target painter.
when you web the drones orbit which pushes the trans velicity up and they cant track. If the target is not webbed the drones are too slow to orbit so they follow the target which makes tracking a lot easier for them. Then the signature res of drone weapons becomes more of a problem - a target painter will help that.
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I fly
Amarr and Gallente ships
Amarr because they peow peow
- and look cool...
Gallente because they are effective |
Cheese999
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Posted - 2006.10.17 04:28:00 -
[54]
Damm broken tracking.
What the Devs have done is the lazy form of tracking, basicly just vector subtraction of the velocities of each object.
In the real world the transversal you are familiar with is described by the angular velocity between the two objects.
If this was implemented then small fast ships would all be like the crow: able to orbit at 3000m/s and hit for full damage. Which is how it should be, in my opinion.
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Goumindong
Amarr
The Forsakened Companions
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.17 05:59:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis
The perceived tracking problem comes from the calculations used. Instead of taking radial velocity (i.e the rate at which the angle of target's path relative to yours is changing) which is measured in rad/s (much like your tracking rate), they use transversal velocity (velocity off of the normal).
Actualy you want the angular velocity, not radial velocity. Radial velocity is velocity along the radial plane [as opposed to the transverse plane] It looks right when you say it that way, but when describing movement in a radial system , the distinction is important.
Anywho, the reason that the game doesnt track angular velocity, is because it doesnt track ship orientation. Ship orientation tracking would fix the issue you show above. It would also make heavy drones really really powerful unless signature issues became more important for guns.
Essentialy, it treats your ship as having a static orientation, no matter what its doing, and then bases your tracking in angular velocity against the target ships angular velocity against you. Angular velocity is arctan[transversal velocity/distance], expressed in radians/second.
Changing this to track orientation would make tracking almost irrelvent, as even the largest of ships can turn faster than their turrets could ever track[at least, for long range turrents, no clue about short range turrets].
One change that might be nice would be to be able to display angular velocity on your overview as well as radial and transverse velocities, because its pretty much impossible to run arctan[transversal/distance] to figure out what type of angular velocity you are looking at on the run, and since we are talking about interstellar spaceships here, they can probably do the math.
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Dante Xaphan
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Posted - 2006.10.17 07:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Khajit Smitty
Edited by: Khajit Smitty on 13/10/2006 09:42:43
Tracking is broken, the mathematics around it are broken.
Dont believe me, fine, jump in a rapier, toss 4 webbs on it with 3x 720mm or even 650mm Artillery projectiles then webby an inteceptor,shuttle,t1 frigate once that is done. Start orbitting the target and whatch your lovely turrets miss 9 out of 10 times.
Fine you dont believe me, you got unlucky, no worries. Do the same on the same target EXCEPT this time stop your ship, dont move, dont orbit.... just sit there, and watch your lovely turrets rip that poor target to absolute shreds.
Oh and 4 webbys on a target = 0m/s.
DO NOT RESPOND ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU HAVE DONE THIS TEST IN THE GAME !!!!
And the stupid thing here is that if he is lying still, and you orbit him, you're guns don't even need to turn as your ship keeps one side to his enemy (at least most of the time). So he had to do the tracking, not you. Really stupid if you can't hit then. In this case I'd defintly say 'it's broken' and needs to be fixed.
Dante
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Dante Xaphan
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Posted - 2006.10.17 07:03:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Dante Xaphan on 17/10/2006 07:18:31
Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis
The perceived tracking problem comes from the calculations used. Instead of taking radial velocity (i.e the rate at which the angle of target's path relative to yours is changing) which is measured in rad/s (much like your tracking rate), they use transversal velocity (velocity off of the normal).
In actuality, an attacker orbitting a stationary target should have zero tracking issues, while the defender's weapons should be trying to track the attacker.
Don't believe me?
Have a friend stand up and point his arm at you. You walk in a circle around him and point your arm at him. Your arm doesn't move, right? His does.
This is why my Crusader orbiting a stationary Retribution (assuming same weapons and tracking skills) should have no problems hitting, while he misses me every so often (not the case, we will miss each other equally because the tracking calcs are based on transversal). A light drone should be able to do the same thing.
A heavy drone on the other hand, while it should have no problems tracking me, it should have problems hitting me based on its RESOLUTION. Resolution is basically me with Parkinson's walking around my buddy. Sure I can do my best to point my arm right at him, but I'm still going to miss a lot.
I know resolution has nothing to do with the shakiness of a turret (it's actually the gun's ability/inability to calculate the precise location of the target within a given area), but it's the best analogy I could come up with.
Because of the WAY tracking is computed, the drones orbit speed works against them. That's why your heavies don't have as much an issue when they're approaching a target or when the frigate is left unwebbed (no web means the drones aren't orbitting all the time, they spend some of the time chasing the vessel ergo low transversal); the only thing they have to grapple with is their resolution.
So basically, if you change the way tracking is calculated, it will be more "realistic" and frigates and drones will blast the ever-living snot out of anything (including each other), and snipers will ruin peoples's days even more so than they already do (because just as in life, they don't have to track at distance).
Right now, the devs are doing their best to balance EVE out. I think that's why the tracking is calculated the way it is. Keeps heavy everything from raping everything smaller (with the exception of nos; probably why a nerf is coming). As for why a heavy blaster can annihilate a frig despite poor tracking; even a broken clock is right twice a day (think about it).
God, that was more than I wanted to type.
haha didnt see this one, exactly what I meant with my post above :).
But this also means its not usefull to sacrifice Hit points for speed. hence it's less usefull to play minmatar, they have less overall HP but more speed, and can therefore orbit more easily.
Dante
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