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Zekora Rally
Negative Density
10
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Posted - 2015.03.03 01:02:07 -
[31] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:I will agree with one thing - they feel a little cheap for what they are. I just took a look at current prices and I'll say this much, I felt more comfortable with their cost when they were around the 150-200 mil mark. You'd pay 150mil for a confessor or svipul? Mkay.... |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1018
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Posted - 2015.03.03 02:01:14 -
[32] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They are hilariously overpowered. Given the history of t3 they wont be fixed for another 6 years. Destroyers in general are cheap and offensive like ...
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
302
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Posted - 2015.03.03 02:46:49 -
[33] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Having used both the svipul and confessor in solo and gang pvp in both lowsec and w-space. Here is what I and my corp found:
They're epic.
Probably a bit too epic.
None of us will ever fly any other frigate sized ship into combat ever again, since:
no two frigates working together can stand up to them.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/43547896/ |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
557
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Posted - 2015.03.03 06:06:24 -
[34] - Quote
Having spent a few weeks on the test server running T3 Dessies through their paces I tend to agree with the OP, and I'd add, I'm also glad to see such things at last being said about the destroyer which until now was like the forgotten middle sister of EVE.
Take into account the percentage that always bridles at anything new, the ones who are sold on their own ships of choice, and the ones who just don't believe anything they read on the internet, and you'll sift it all down to the ones who actually know.
These dessies have changed things. What, we have yet to really discover. With all the changes coming we may find battle in EVE has been scaled down in ship size just a tad. Yes, frigs need to be brought up a bit, but the BS needs to become the big mac daddy, too. Then the fleet is complete.
(Solo roamers and small gang gankers shouldn't take this post seriously.)
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
836
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Posted - 2015.03.03 08:48:19 -
[35] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:As a class of ship, the T3 Destroyers have pretty much taken the top spots on zkillboard now, sitting constantly at #1 and #3: http://puu.sh/gg9u1/09b82b1cb1.jpg (7 day stats) Before the Svipul was released, the Confessor was sitting even wiith the Ishtar for kills (with the Sabre constantly sitting in #1), but now with two of the T3 Destroyers out, they are pretty much leading the way. Total kills for those two ships constantly sits at between 17000 - 18000 per week. Even the Sabre, which has a pretty unique role compared to the T3 Destroyers, has dropped about 1000 kills per week since the Svipul was released; after also dropping about 1000 per week when the Confessor was first released. Whether that is purely because they are so popular, or because they are so strong; I don't know but it's most likely a combination. What is certain is that the role for Assault Frigates is disappearing fast.
Thanks for the numbers, that's interesting and initially confirms what I felt. It suggests that everyone else is getting the message that the 'frigate' of choice is the T3 destroyer.
I have read a number of suggestions in the thread about buffing frigates to compensate. To my mind this would be the wrong approach, because it would necessarily cause a balance ripple all the way up the ship classes.
I am personally fine with a class of ship being amazing (for example T3s at gang pvp, Tengus at everything*, marauders at pve, guardians at logistics etc) but there should be a cost that provides a disincentive to abuse the power.
One simple way would be to reduce the chance of small hull-section drops. This would of course tighten supply and therefore eventually increase prices. ISK 50m just feels far too cheap to me. I'm completely happy to put a svipul into any fight at this price - it will emerge victorious more than twice as often as an equivalent AF, so it's actually cheaper in real terms.
In summary:
At present, these ships are twice the cost of an assault frigate, but they are easily more than twice as good. In versatility of fittings alone, let alone the ability to lay down fire on the battlefield.
What is the right price for this imbalance of power?
Would I pay 80m for a Svipul? yes. Would I pay 120m? maybe 180m? I'd keep it for special occasions. 240m? probably not.
So for me, anything under ~100m is cheap when compared with the alternatives.
Regarding the posting of T3 destroyer kill mails: I don't think there is one class of ship that has *never* been blown up, so singular examples of kills does not aid the debate.
My experience is that despite the bonuses, long range svipuls and confessors are less effective on the whole than AC and pulse-fitted versions - at least in low-sec FW systems where most combat is point-blank.
I'd be interested to hear about the experiences of people who routinely see success with the long range fits.
Appendix: * Tengus... don't get me started... but at least the skill loss keeps their numbers in check. And when you kill one, you *know* that that pilot won't be in one for another 5 days - that makes it all worthwhile...
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1232
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Posted - 2015.03.03 09:29:12 -
[36] - Quote
Anyone with half a brain could see this coming from miles away, anyone apart from CCP it seems.
I'm old Gregor.
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tony slarp
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.03.03 09:33:31 -
[37] - Quote
They only make assault frigates useless, but then again that entire ship line was already roleless and pointless before. |
Winters Chill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
173
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Posted - 2015.03.03 09:51:30 -
[38] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
None of us will ever fly any other frigate sized ship into combat ever again,
Yup.
Confessor is amazing.
However, wait until the Gallente one comes out. It will be a drone boat and since drones are rediculiously overpowered everyone will be flying those. Which would be a shame I feel.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1793
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:03:28 -
[39] - Quote
Of course they are OP. There are some ridiculous killboards out there with these ships. I dislike this power creep - it just leads to lack of diversity.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
837
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:07:55 -
[40] - Quote
Winters Chill wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
None of us will ever fly any other frigate sized ship into combat ever again,
Yup. Confessor is amazing. However, wait until the Gallente one comes out. It will be a drone boat and since drones are rediculiously overpowered everyone will be flying those. Which would be a shame I feel.
I'm not sure that drones per-se are ridiculously overpowered.
Certainly sentry drones are (and always have been). The super-drones of the gila probably are. Every other kind of drone falls quickly to light weaponry or smartbombs.
my thoughts are that if the gallante T3 destroyer is a drone boat, it will be shunned in favour of the svipul since drones cannot get on target quickly and can be outrun or shot.
Of course if the gallente T3 is a blaster boat with the same elevation in dps as the svipul enjoys then we'll be looking at not-so-glassy cannons that emit 939.17dps of pin-point accurate blaster fire.
Game over.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
33919
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:15:05 -
[41] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Game over. you may now transfer the entirety of all your asset hangars to be in my possession, and proceed to phase 2 of ragequit; unsubscribing.
E: page snipe.
Founder of the Graycember movement and LAGL's pet cat.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! please send evemail if interested.
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
837
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:40:09 -
[42] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Game over. you may now transfer the entirety of all your asset hangars to be in my possession, and proceed to phase 2 of ragequit; unsubscribing. E: page snipe.
Don't be silly.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Varathius
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
162
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Posted - 2015.03.03 10:45:36 -
[43] - Quote
as long as pirate frigs keep being this overpowered (significantly overpowered that is) comparing to their faction and t1 counterparts, T3 destroyers don't bother me, in fact, I welcome them. I don't fly one myself but I like the idea that in this game destroyers are finally capable to go against cruisers and pirate frigates solo in terms of having same purpose fits.
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Valkin Mordirc
674
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Posted - 2015.03.03 11:02:09 -
[44] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:As a class of ship, the T3 Destroyers have pretty much taken the top spots on zkillboard now, sitting constantly at #1 and #3: http://puu.sh/gg9u1/09b82b1cb1.jpg (7 day stats) Before the Svipul was released, the Confessor was sitting even wiith the Ishtar for kills (with the Sabre constantly sitting in #1), but now with two of the T3 Destroyers out, they are pretty much leading the way. Total kills for those two ships constantly sits at between 17000 - 18000 per week. Whether that is purely because they are so popular, or because they are so strong; I don't know but it's most likely a combination.
It's probably because it's a brand new ship. And everybody wants to use them, and they don't take long to train into.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png
Also if you look at the graph CCP posted on Dev blog, it shows that a lot of ships including the one the Dessie can counter are still in more use than itself.
On the topic of them being op,
Dessies are intended to take out frigates, why should the new ones suddenly be nerfed for doing what it's T1 Variants are suppose to do? You can't look at a ships initial hull and say, HEY THIS MORE ADVANCED HULL IS DOING BETTER THAN THE T1 VERSION. IT'S OP!!!!
That's not fair. Dessies, are meant to be a counter to Frigs. Since they kill AF's and such easily, then I'd say they are doing just fine. But if you look through the losses you still see people losing well-fit confessors to single AF's which means it's still possible for a AF to have a fighting chance.
I'd say give it some more time, so people can figure out the best fits for them, and then let CCP adjust accordingly, Tweaks maybe needed. But not Nerfs
#DeleteTheWeak
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Anthar Thebess
942
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Posted - 2015.03.03 11:09:41 -
[45] - Quote
Those ships simply killed all T2 assalut frigates and every thing below. Almost similar price , few times in performance.
They simply outperform every single ship in their class, and even some above them. Some change must be done , as they are just ... OP.
Low sensor strength ? Very low - so they can be easily countered by any jammer?
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:01:18 -
[46] - Quote
On zkillboard svipul has the most effective kill/loses last week ratio.
Maybe the emphasis put on speed tanking is starting to reach epic proportions? |
Semideus Magnatus
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:08:02 -
[47] - Quote
How about T3 Frigates to match the T3 Destroyers ? |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
211
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Posted - 2015.03.03 15:45:01 -
[48] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:I will agree with one thing - they feel a little cheap for what they are. I just took a look at current prices and I'll say this much, I felt more comfortable with their cost when they were around the 150-200 mil mark.
that's the power of our industry, people have their legion of alts that produce unrealistic numbers of starships lead to crashing prices. buying out the market isn't a solution nor is killing miners due to the minerals in the market. The best thing is to find the builders and wait for their shipping times and jump them. even that doesn't seem to be enough.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
695
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Posted - 2015.03.03 15:49:28 -
[49] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Having used both the svipul and confessor in solo and gang pvp in both lowsec and w-space. Here is what I and my corp found:
They're epic.
Probably a bit too epic.
None of us will ever fly any other frigate sized ship into combat ever again, since:
no frigate can stand up to them no two frigates working together can stand up to them The svipul out-performs interceptors (at intercepting) they out-dps most cruisers (taking into account small weapon tracking, make that *all* cruisers) They can be dual propped, dual repped, armour tanked, shield tanked, bricks or (toughened) glass cannons. Their cap is strong enough to easily support perma-MWD. They can insta-warp by changing from speed to defence mode 1/3 of the way through alignment. They have an enormous cargo hold for charges, loot, MTUs, mobile depots so make perfect wormhole loot delivery vans while being able to transform themselves from short range to long range fit and from pve to pvp fit, mid-mission without any penalties to performance.
They do not have a single weakness. There is not even the punishment of skill loss for losing one. The skill loss which incidentally is arguably the *only* reason that eve is not called "TenguQuest".
Oh, and once you've bought the fittings, a fully-fitted tactical destroyer is approximately the same price as any other T2 frigate, which it will easily mince.
Does the design team have any thoughts on this?
I mean, I know the community will instantly reply, "OiGetYourDirtyHandsOffMyNewShineyPwnMobile!!!", but I imagine the dev team will have a view on eve combat that is a little less myopic than that of us capsuleers?
I hope so anyway...
Its a destroyer's JOB to own frigates.
Having said that, I lost a svipul yesterday. They arent overpowered. They munch frigates, and die to cruisers.
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Winters Chill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
173
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Posted - 2015.03.03 15:58:42 -
[50] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I'm not sure that drones per-se are ridiculously overpowered.
Rediculiously annoying maybe would be better.
Its a shame auto targetting systems are useless. If they got buffed, they might make an interesting out of the box counter to drones, for turret boats. |
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Davir Sometaww
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
29
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Posted - 2015.03.03 22:20:43 -
[51] - Quote
They are insane.
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.03.04 05:07:41 -
[52] - Quote
I am curious as to why the OP doesn't think the T3 Destroyer should be able to take down T1 or T2 frigates? |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
840
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Posted - 2015.03.04 06:44:37 -
[53] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:I am curious as to why the OP doesn't think the T3 Destroyer should be able to take down T1 or T2 frigates?
If you truly are curious about this then I have not been clear about my meaning in my initial post.
I was under the impression that the gist of the post highlights the fact that the T3 destroyers, by virtue of their high performance and low cost, make frigates obsolete overnight. It's not that a T3 destroyer can beat a T2 frigate - it's that there is no reason to choose a T2 frigate anymore.
Now when I say "no reason", I do of course accept that there are rare occasions when a T2 frigate may be a better choice. Here are some scenarios and the ships choices that it seems to me are the right choices:
You want to attack a frigate: Take a T3 destroyer. They're faster, stronger, more nimble. The only scenario where you'd choose a frigate is when your target is in a Novice FW site.
You want to attack a destroyer: Definitely take a T3 destroyer
You want a shuttle to get past interdiction bubbles: take an interceptor
You want to actually intercept things, bubbles or not: take a Svipul
You want to use long range webs/points/ecm and for some reason you can't take a recon or T3: take an electronic attack ship. Watch out for incoming Svipuls burning for you at 5k/s
You want a fast-locking ship that can apply excellent dps and be easily kept alive despite withering lowsec gate fire: T3 destroyer!
I could go on...
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.03.04 12:20:05 -
[54] - Quote
From world of cruisers to world of dessies! Impatiently waiting for t3 rookie ships!
It is a destroyers job to deal with frigates, but very soon all small gang pvp will be t3 dessie exclusive, just sayin'. A t3 des should not out run t2 frigates but its guns should be effective at tracking them.
Maybe some future game patches should consider finally consider a tracking mods re-balance or at least introduce a speed limit for each class of ship that can't be further improved?
There are already a many forms of ewar that effectively disrupt it (tracking) even further but the most effective is speed tanking because not applied dps exists only on paper. This created already too many RISK FREE situations where speed tankers need to worry not about anything than bumping a structure or an eventual dual web and now there is a new dedicated ship class that pushes it even further. |
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