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Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union
7
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Posted - 2015.03.02 18:46:37 -
[1] - Quote
Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?
People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.
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Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
975
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Posted - 2015.03.02 18:48:34 -
[2] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?
People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.
A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else.
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Phig Neutron
Rubicon Cubism
46
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:02:24 -
[3] - Quote
They have some experience with this sort of thing, and they're probably doing it better than you or I would. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
391
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:39:24 -
[4] - Quote
Eve is not like other games in that there is no level cap that they can keep raising and there is no new season of gear. They can't just continually buff things like other MMOs do. In a game like WoW you can buff one or two classes or spells or what ever and since you'll be getting a new PvP season or a new raid tier or a new expansion or something like that is always a couple months a way so you can just continually creep up. Power creep like that would destroy eve so they have to continue to keep the ship classes generally where they are.
If CCP were to give into the power creep scenario that you are talking about the NPCs would get easier and easier to fight. Then isk per hour would go up which would then mean that prices of everything would go up which would just further increase the barrier of entry for newer players.
I don't agree with the balancing act that CCP is doing right now. I think it is a bad road to go down that just opens them up to constant problems in a game that was reasonably well balanced in the ways that it needed to be. Now they are seeking balance in all the wrong ways IMHO.
Each races ship line ups used to have a niche that they filled. They each had a role and depending on what you like to do, you could find a racial ship line up that worked well for you. Now they keep trying to make it so that all ships get used exactly the same. So now let's say if Goons come up with a new ship doctrine and one specific ship get used a lot more all of the sudden just because it's a required ship by some huge alliance that accounts for large amounts of PvP and that ship sees a lot more action as a result, that ship now will get nerfed just based on the fact that a lot of people are flying it. It does not matter if the ship is over powered or dead even perfectly balanced. |
J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5893
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:48:18 -
[5] - Quote
Is This even serious?
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
391
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:52:51 -
[6] - Quote
Phig Neutron wrote:They have some experience with this sort of thing, and they're probably doing it better than you or I would. I don't think that is wise to assume because these guys have been developing this game for a long time that they know how to balance things. I'm sure that they know how to code this game much better than you or I but game developers in this game and others often have a disconnect from how the game actually works. If you think about it, it is difficult to focus on playing the game when you spend all day working on the back end of stuff.
A player that only plays the game has as focused perspective that can not be gotten any other way other than having that level of focus. I believe that is why CCP has the CSM because they are aware of this. I know he doesn't play anymore but back when Ripard Teg was still in the game I would have taken his predictions on how game mechanic changes would effect the game over any CCP employee every time and on every subject. Every game has it's elite players that know the game play side of things better than the devs do.
If what you said were universally true then politicians that were in office for decades on end would get better and better with each passing year and I don't think anyone would argue that to be the case, well at least not anyone that wasn't a politician or worked for one. |
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union
7
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:52:59 -
[7] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Eve is not like other games in that there is no level cap that they can keep raising and there is no new season of gear. They can't just continually buff things like other MMOs do. In a game like WoW you can buff one or two classes or spells or what ever and since you'll be getting a new PvP season or a new raid tier or a new expansion or something like that is always a couple months a way so you can just continually creep up. Power creep like that would destroy eve so they have to continue to keep the ship classes generally where they are.
If CCP were to give into the power creep scenario that you are talking about the NPCs would get easier and easier to fight. Then isk per hour would go up which would then mean that prices of everything would go up which would just further increase the barrier of entry for newer players.
I don't agree with the balancing act that CCP is doing right now. I think it is a bad road to go down that just opens them up to constant problems in a game that was reasonably well balanced in the ways that it needed to be. Now they are seeking balance in all the wrong ways IMHO.
Each races ship line ups used to have a niche that they filled. They each had a role and depending on what you like to do, you could find a racial ship line up that worked well for you. Now they keep trying to make it so that all ships get used exactly the same. So now let's say if Goons come up with a new ship doctrine and one specific ship get used a lot more all of the sudden just because it's a required ship by some huge alliance that accounts for large amounts of PvP and that ship sees a lot more action as a result, that ship now will get nerfed just based on the fact that a lot of people are flying it. It does not matter if the ship is over powered or dead even perfectly balanced.
Wouldn't NPC get the effect of the power balancing creep as well? |
Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
978
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Posted - 2015.03.02 19:57:01 -
[8] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:Wouldn't NPC get the effect of the power balancing creep as well?
..............ok, now you're trolling, right?
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
958
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:00:58 -
[9] - Quote
There's already plenty of power creep in EVE. Look at the Rifter, which was the most powerful frigate before the balance pass buffed all the others. Now it's one of the worst. Or how battleships have fallen out of favor in PVP since frigates and cruisers were buffed to be competitive.
Take for example Ishtars. It's pretty universally agreed they are overpowered. What would you have CCP do, buff every weapon system to match? Maybe they should give scorch 60 km optimal with medium guns? Or give blasters selectable damage types while maintaining their high dps and improving their tracking? They can't just break everything else to match the problem - they fix the problem.
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Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union
7
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:03:14 -
[10] - Quote
Ned Thomas wrote:Styphon the Black wrote:Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?
People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.
A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else.
Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles. |
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Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
978
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:11:49 -
[11] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:
Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.
You honestly just said that the ship is now useless except when it won't be useless.
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Dredd Lochness Munster
Dredd Lochness Munster Corporation
13
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:14:09 -
[12] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:Ned Thomas wrote:Styphon the Black wrote:Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?
People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.
A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else. Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.
How do you suggest they would "buff" other ships to counter carrier's ability to assign fighters? I can't think of one. 10 frigates on a gate have the firepower of 5 carriers, without putting the carriers at actual risk. How do you fix that by buffing the ships that might jump into such a situation? |
Dredd Lochness Munster
Dredd Lochness Munster Corporation
13
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:15:17 -
[13] - Quote
Ned Thomas wrote:Styphon the Black wrote:
Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.
You honestly just said that the ship is now useless except when it won't be useless.
Yeah... His complaint is that the ship will be useless except when filling the role it was always intended to fill. |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
958
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:15:18 -
[14] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles. If you just came to cry about carrier nerfs you are in the wrong forum. Carriers will be far from useless.
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Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
978
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 20:15:26 -
[15] - Quote
Also I direct your attention to this thread in General Discussion.
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5893
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 20:19:07 -
[16] - Quote
Okay. 6/10 om the OP, too many people took the bait.
This guy is obviously not a new player, and is obviously a troll.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
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Orlacc
820
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:21:49 -
[17] - Quote
Guy was training a carrier to do PVE. So sad.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1050
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:22:28 -
[18] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:Ned Thomas wrote:Styphon the Black wrote:Why do the Devs when trying to rebalance or fix a "overpowered" ship or piece of equipment always seem to lead towards reducing the stats or abilities of that item, instead of raising the level of the under performing ships and systems?
People have to spend a lot of time (literally years!) and money training into one of these type of vessels and being able to fly it well. Then CCP creates a nerf and that makes that ship type obsolete. It would seem more agreeable to make the under performing ships and weapon systems more appealing by raising their stats and abilities rather than reducing the effectiveness of a popular ship type or weapon system.
A nerf to one ship is an indirect buff to all others. It's therefore easier to tone down one thing than try to prop up everything else. Normally I would agree with that logic. However, this game is unique in that training and character development takes years to accomplish. So when the Devs makes a "rebalance" they can effectively erase a toons usefulness and value. For example the changes announced to carrier pilots/fighters will reduce their usefulness greatly making them effectively useless expect for large scale alliance fleet battles.
This makes no sense.
If they buff everything else, the current overpowered thing will then no longer be overpowered in comparison to something else and you would complain again.
The game will never be perfectly balanced, but fixing one part to make it more balanced is a lot easier than fixing everything to be as broken as the problem. |
Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
979
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 20:22:47 -
[19] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:too many people took the bait.
I'm addicted to bait, what can I say?
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Phig Neutron
Rubicon Cubism
47
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Posted - 2015.03.02 20:24:19 -
[20] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:So now let's say if Goons come up with a new ship doctrine and one specific ship get used a lot more all of the sudden just because it's a required ship by some huge alliance that accounts for large amounts of PvP and that ship sees a lot more action as a result, that ship now will get nerfed just based on the fact that a lot of people are flying it. It does not matter if the ship is over powered or dead even perfectly balanced.
Are you honestly trying to argue that Ishtars, Tengus, or offgrid carriers only seem to be overpowered because Goons have them as a doctrine or something? Whining about a nerf to your favorite ship, because it's your favorite ship, is not a good preface to a couple posts down where you argue that CCP developers are myopic while you personally take a holistic global view of game balance. |
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Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union
7
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Posted - 2015.03.02 21:55:05 -
[21] - Quote
Phig Neutron wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:So now let's say if Goons come up with a new ship doctrine and one specific ship get used a lot more all of the sudden just because it's a required ship by some huge alliance that accounts for large amounts of PvP and that ship sees a lot more action as a result, that ship now will get nerfed just based on the fact that a lot of people are flying it. It does not matter if the ship is over powered or dead even perfectly balanced. Are you honestly trying to argue that Ishtars, Tengus, or offgrid carriers only seem to be overpowered because Goons have them as a doctrine or something? Whining about a nerf to your favorite ship, because it's your favorite ship, is not a good preface to a couple posts down where you argue that CCP developers are myopic while you personally take a holistic global view of game balance.
I actually have no problem with Ishtars, Tengus etc... I don't even fly them. So it isn't in my interest to keep things better for those pilots.
I do have a problem with changing a ship, mechanic or piece of equipment so much so that it makes using it a dumb choice. There is always going to be something that is considered "overpowered" in comparision with the current meta of the day. I just don't like it when players spend lots of time and effort training to have that time and investment made almost of no value by a Dev update.
Btw - Medium Rails guns are used on a lot more than just the few ships that are OP and making their damage stats seem out of norms. It is more a problem with "Tengu, Eagle and Vulture" than it is with the railgun itself being OP. |
J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5893
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Posted - 2015.03.02 21:59:26 -
[22] - Quote
I smell the scent of an ISD. I hear the sound of keys.
Lock is imminent.
OP.
Stop QQ-ing. If you don't like the game, stop playing, you won't be missed by anybody.
Or shrug it off and play...and stop your 12 year old whiny tantrum.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
392
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:03:03 -
[23] - Quote
Phig Neutron wrote:
Are you honestly trying to argue that Ishtars, Tengus, or offgrid carriers only seem to be overpowered because Goons have them as a doctrine or something? Whining about a nerf to your favorite ship, because it's your favorite ship, is not a good preface to a couple posts down where you argue that CCP developers are myopic while you personally take a holistic global view of game balance.
No I was not trying to say that.
If you look at the Dev post the main piece of data that they are using to determine what needs to be nerfed is how much damage that ship or weapon system does in PvP as compared to everything else. So if one ship looked very pretty and everyone flew that ship because it looked pretty CCP would see that ship doing the most damage because everyone is flying it. So according to CCP that ship would need to be nerfed to a point where it was not Flavor of the month anymore. So even if the ship is not over popwered it will still get nerfed just because it gets used "too much".
As far as whinning about my favorite ship getting nerfed none of my favorite ships have been touched so that is not at all the case.As a matter of fact one of my favorite ships just got a slight buff in the last round of balancing and I bitched about that as well. It's the balancing that I don't like. I watched this attempt to create a "balanced" game destroy WoW and I'm watching it destroy Eve. I've said that from when they first started discussing the tiericide and I'll say it today.
As far as me accusing the devs of being myopic I don't believe that is what I did. I said that they were good at making the game and players were good at playing the game. I argued that the people that played the game were in a better position to speak about balance than the ones making the game and I think that if you compare blogs from elite gamers and the devs of those games when discussing upcoming changes that more often the elite gamers are more correct than the devs.
As far as my holistic global view of game balance what other kind is there?
As far as my take on the changes to ishtars, tengus and off grid fighter assists, I don't PvP and I don't fly ishtars much, never been in a tengu and never used a carrier for anything other than moving ships around. I did comment on the changes in the appropriate forum thread however and when I did I commented on CCPs own comments. They by their own admission are nerfing things that are already well balanced strictly because too many people are flying them. I also found it funny that they had a problem with rails being used the most when 2 races use hybrids when projectiles and lazors are only used by one race so based on just that alone hybrids should be used twice as much anyway. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2046
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:26:33 -
[24] - Quote
Kneejerk responses to player behavior. |
Orlacc
820
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:29:45 -
[25] - Quote
Styphon the Black wrote:Phig Neutron wrote:[quote=ergherhdfgh]while you personally take a holistic global view of game balance. I actually have no problem with Ishtars, Tengus etc... I don't even fly them.
So to distill, it's all about you. Quaint.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
392
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:31:49 -
[26] - Quote
Like the OP I don't have a problem with a ship performing better than other ships at a given task. If I want to do that task I'll just skill up for that ship. This is not WoW I'm not locked into some class or some race or something like that. I have no issues adapting to the game.
Like the OP I take issue with me training up for something because everyone says it's good for what ever I'm trying to do just to have that ship or module or what ever get nerfed right as I'm about to jump into one. I'll adapt to the game that's fine. But when I remap and move my training around to get skilled up for a specific ship and then have that ship nerfed wasting my past few months training and the whole point of my current remap that pisses me off and it has happened to me more than once.
What I do take issue with on my own, outside the OPs comments, is that in this game where anyone can fly anything how can anyone claim anything is OP. If that ship is so awesome that you can't beat it in anything else then fly that ship. There is nothing stopping you from training up for it. Too often in other games I've seen people come to the forums an whine that everyone is OP and their class is underpowered. Mind you I don't PvP but when I see hunters complaining that priests are overpowered and priests complaining that hunters are overpowered I just feel the need to ask those people "did you ever consider that maybe you aren't as good at this game as you think you are and that you are loosing to better players not better characters?".
In this game where anyone can fly anything it seems like an even more appropriate question to ask "If the Flavor Of The Month ship is so OP then why not just fly one?". My guess is that those players are afraid that if they do fly the flavor of the month and still can't win that they'd have to admit that they just aren't that good because they'd have nothing else to blame it on. So instead of putting themselves to the test in that way they'd rather just complain that it's the game.
Eve isn't a game about fair fights anyway which makes the concept of ship balance even more of a joke. I can see people complaining about balance in a ranked 3 v 3 queueable arena match but in eve those tears make no sense. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
392
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 04:34:06 -
[27] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:
So to distill, it's all about you. Quaint.
Are you suggesting that he should play this game for someone else's enjoyment?
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2046
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:41:23 -
[28] - Quote
Essentially they won't stop until every ship performs identically to a T1 cruiser or frigate. |
Egdald Eriker
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:46:01 -
[29] - Quote
Because it's easier to fix 2 things than it is to fix 80 things. And because constantly buffing everything would result in PvE being better, meaning more isk into the economy. And because then you'd need to buff the health of everything, so that logistics doesn't become useless because rookie ships could alpha damnations. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4347
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Posted - 2015.03.03 05:44:50 -
[30] - Quote
Quote:Forum rules5. Trolling is prohibited.Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. Thread closed.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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