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E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
209
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Posted - 2012.02.01 18:19:00 -
[391] - Quote
I strong DO NOT support this.
Implants represent a risk vs reward....these should be kept in eve.
I fly with 3+'s in 0.0 and 4+in high. I balance that out according the reward vs risk I take. Giving everyone 5+ would be silly.
Need more-ádecent content a casual player can access in a 1-2h play period that is actually fun and contributes to long term personal and corp goals. This applies to PvE and PvP. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
18
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Posted - 2012.02.01 18:35:00 -
[392] - Quote
I kinda like this idea. but there is one huge downside.
attribute implants are a huge isk sink. many many players believe a full set of +5 implants is an absolute must. Personally I run with +4s as I can get a full set of +4s for the price of a single +5. but As I said they are a big isk sink.
With the inflation I have seen in game in the last two years(mostly over the last 6 months) isk sinks need to be added not taken away, or we risk inflation raising the entry level of general game play above what a new player can afford. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1004
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 18:43:00 -
[393] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:... who will refuse to PvP because they have a billion ISK in implants in their head they don't want to lose ... you have to be *REALLY* unlucky to lose a pod in empire space. A billion isk in implants isn't exactly that much, a HG slave set will take up a fair portion of that (if not the whole thing), and people PVP with those ... Taking out learning implants won't make people PVP ... they'll then cry that they can't PVP because of how expensive it is to replace their ships (which you lose a LOT more than pods). Really? I recall seeing a lot of threads about people being ganked in highsec. Heck I have been podded on a gate from smartbombs in lowsec before while traveling in a shuttle. Some people who live in WH space run with high value implants and avoid PVP at all costs. I am sure there are those that do the same in nullsec. But yes...people will always find new reasons to ***** and complain about something.
I haven't had any implants in my character for 2 months now. I live and run out of WH space. I have no jumpclone option. I could spend another 400 mil for a set of +4's but I just don't care to. The bonus to my training time just isn't that valuable to me. Each to their own. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1004
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 18:47:00 -
[394] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:Currently the implant process contitutes a significant isk sink to the game with the LP payments going to the NPCs, how do you propose to balance the impact to the economy with simply removing them?
Side note: Maybe add an insurance process for implants akin to ships? In theory also an extra helpful game ISK sink. This would help to irradicate some of the risk aversion associated with implant use. You have a valid point. CCP proposed the idea to the CSM so I bet they have an idea ready. Personally I would say that removing learning implants will encourage more PvP. The increased loss of ships will spur the purchase of new ships which in turn moves the economy all around. It is quite possible that the removal of learning implants itself can be the payoff. I know many people who will refuse to PvP because they have a billion ISK in implants in their head they don't want to lose and then replace. Take that out of the equation and they would go out and either kill a bunch of other ships or lose their own. The buying and trading of ships only transfers isk around it is not a sink to the game. Quote:I would say no to the insurance idea. We really don't need to break that anymore than it already is. Frankly I am to the point where I believe insurance shouldn't even exist. What company in their right mind insures something that is being taken out to be deliberately put in danger with such a high risk of damage? So like combat ships? Personally I think the suggestion of insurance for implants is well placed and would contribute a much needed significant drain to the ISK pot in the game.
Can you clarify for me then how buying new implants IS an ISK sink? Every implant I have purchases has been from another player...not an NPC. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1865
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Posted - 2012.02.01 18:53:00 -
[395] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Can you clarify for me then how buying new implants IS an ISK sink? Every implant I have purchases has been from another player...not an NPC.
The implants are sourced from LP stores, and cost a certain amount of LP and ISK. andski for csm7~ |
Velicitia
Open Designs
488
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Posted - 2012.02.01 19:14:00 -
[396] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Velicitia wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:... who will refuse to PvP because they have a billion ISK in implants in their head they don't want to lose ... you have to be *REALLY* unlucky to lose a pod in empire space. A billion isk in implants isn't exactly that much, a HG slave set will take up a fair portion of that (if not the whole thing), and people PVP with those ... Taking out learning implants won't make people PVP ... they'll then cry that they can't PVP because of how expensive it is to replace their ships (which you lose a LOT more than pods). Really? I recall seeing a lot of threads about people being ganked in highsec. Heck I have been podded on a gate from smartbombs in lowsec before while traveling in a shuttle. Some people who live in WH space run with high value implants and avoid PVP at all costs. I am sure there are those that do the same in nullsec. But yes...people will always find new reasons to ***** and complain about something.
Ganked in hisec != podded. Running into a discogeddon on a gate is "unlucky".
I never said *everyone* PvP'd with HG slaves ... but there are people who do. It all depends on what they can afford to lose. |
Benedic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.02.01 19:29:00 -
[397] - Quote
I support this because it's a pain in the ass to replace them when I die (which I do, a lot)! |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1004
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 19:37:00 -
[398] - Quote
Velicitia wrote: Ganked in hisec != podded. Running into a discogeddon on a gate is "unlucky".
I never said *everyone* PvP'd with HG slaves ... but there are people who do. It all depends on what they can afford to lose.
I think you need to realize that not every pod gets away in highsec. People are podded in highsec probably a lot more than you believe them to be. And luck has nothing to do with it.
Andski wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Can you clarify for me then how buying new implants IS an ISK sink? Every implant I have purchases has been from another player...not an NPC. The implants are sourced from LP stores, and cost a certain amount of LP and ISK. Ah...I don't exactly use the LP store. I thought they could be created from blueprints. That makes sense then. I suppose more ISK sinks are always needed so removing learning implants would create a loss in ISK sinks. I may have to rethink my support of this thread. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Velicitia
Open Designs
489
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 20:49:00 -
[399] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Velicitia wrote: Ganked in hisec != podded. Running into a discogeddon on a gate is "unlucky".
I never said *everyone* PvP'd with HG slaves ... but there are people who do. It all depends on what they can afford to lose.
I think you need to realize that not every pod gets away in highsec. People are podded in highsec probably a lot more than you believe them to be. And luck has nothing to do with it.
OK, there's also the "pvp newbie" crowd ...
we need CCP Diagoras to get us the stats on ship losses overall in hisec, and compare that to subsequent pod losses to really get a decent metric. However, pods insta-warp off, so you should be able to GTFO to a safe (or the star, or a planet) most of the time. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1004
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 20:53:00 -
[400] - Quote
I would agree. The only way to truly know would be the stats. I agree that while pods insta warp that people should be able to get away but insta locking ships and smartbombs sometimes prevent this. I won't mention the AFK deaths because those ones deserve to be podded. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
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Velicitia
Open Designs
489
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Posted - 2012.02.01 21:25:00 -
[401] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:I would agree. The only way to truly know would be the stats. I agree that while pods insta warp that people should be able to get away but insta locking ships and smartbombs sometimes prevent this. I won't mention the AFK deaths because those ones deserve to be podded.
On the issue of smartbombs, it's pretty rare that you're going to find someone with those in PvP situations. Much less so in hisec, because if you hit a non WT, or the station, or a gate gun ... and CONCORD is going to come and say "hi". I mean, sure, it's possible that a domi or other droneboat may have one or two fit, but you have to be really careful about using them... and the range isn't exactly far.
Insta-locking ships still take a second or so to lock you, and that really comes down to luck as to who ticks first (the person trying to GTFO, or the point on the instalock).
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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.02.01 23:45:00 -
[402] - Quote
not supported.
really, implants prevent ship to ship combat? so what. PvP is not and never limited ship destruction. Your argument is immediately INVALID. Every aspect of the game is confrontation.
Industry implants. I need to compete against other producers of blueprints. Implants for copy speed, material research and time research. And why would I risk these on a roam? Is the intention that these too be removed because a vocal minority fails to understand levels of adversal play?
I choose to take the risk of implants, for a greater reward.
Is the sandbox so limited for some, they can only see the kicking of castles?
Your insipid argument could be extended to expensive Mindlinks being risk adverse? Or an expensive set used for probe scanning and exploration? Remove those too, because these pilots choose not engage ship to ship?
So where does it end? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1876
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 23:48:00 -
[403] - Quote
wow you totally didn't read the fact that i left out hardwirings
might as well biomass your forum alt and roll a new one! andski for csm7~ |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
573
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Posted - 2012.02.02 00:13:00 -
[404] - Quote
This is a surprisingly well thought out, simple idea, and it is consistent with the removal of learning skills. It also fixes a whole lot of issues regarding null PvP and jumpclones, as mentioned. |
Mourning Souls
Questionable Morality
2
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Posted - 2012.02.02 00:22:00 -
[405] - Quote
I dislike agreeing with (TEST)icles and Goons, but I like this idea. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.02.02 04:31:00 -
[406] - Quote
grumble grumble, post eating forum. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
492
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Posted - 2012.02.02 13:32:00 -
[407] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:I would agree. The only way to truly know would be the stats.
Ask, and we shall receive.
CCP Diagoras wrote: Total PVP high sec kills in Jan 2012; 50,460 with 22,852 victims and 10,151 killers.
CCP Diagoras wrote: 7,367 capsules destroyed in high sec belonging to 5,915 different chars, by 2,117 different characters in Jan 2012.
So, 14.5% of kills in hisec result in a podding. At least this is how it worked out in January. Over the course of a year then, 15-20% would be more than generous of an assumption.
edit -- So a 1 in 5 chance of losing your pod... learning implants are fine. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1011
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 14:08:00 -
[408] - Quote
Nice. And that is just highsec as you said. Low and nullsec, especially nullsec, probably have far more pod kills. Not to mention WH space. Honestly with all the PvP I have seen in WH space I have seen very few pods get away...especially with bubblers. Either way. You were right in that the number is lower than I thought.
I don't think this is a question of would removing learning implants encourage more PvP, I think it definately would. The question is how would the ISK from no longer losing those implants balance out in the game. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Velicitia
Open Designs
492
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 15:20:00 -
[409] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Nice. And that is just highsec as you said. Low and nullsec, especially nullsec, probably have far more pod kills. Not to mention WH space. Honestly with all the PvP I have seen in WH space I have seen very few pods get away...especially with bubblers. Either way. You were right in that the number is lower than I thought.
I don't think this is a question of would removing learning implants encourage more PvP, I think it definately would. The question is how would the ISK from no longer losing those implants balance out in the game.
I don't think lowsec would be much higher than highsec -- still can't bubble ... though on the other hand, the PvP guys are probably "better" at the twitch-lock that you need to nab a pod... I'd be surprised if it's above 33%.
Nullsec/W-space is probably closer to 50% (or even higher), so the question of implants there is probably valid.
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TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
17
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Posted - 2012.02.02 15:29:00 -
[410] - Quote
Following this logic all implants are pointless as someone who want's to be hyper optimized in X needs to have the implants for that and will then not want to play the game incase they lose them.
so
although they bug me
I'll just stick to using what I can afford to lose. |
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Hilmar Myhra
Rent a Hole
0
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Posted - 2012.02.06 17:50:00 -
[411] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:Following this logic all implants are pointless as someone who want's to be hyper optimized in X needs to have the implants for that and will then not want to play the game incase they lose them.
Most Hardwiring implants have an actual impact on your ship. If you don't fly with them, they bring you nothing. Learning implants don't work that way. There is a similar issue with, say, industry implants, but it's a minor one as characters with these implants rarely undock to pvp anyway.
Learning implants affect everyone and make people less willing to risk in pvp, so...
/Supported
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Disdaine
237
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Posted - 2012.02.07 02:11:00 -
[412] - Quote
Hilmar Myhra wrote:Learning implants affect everyone and make people less willing to risk in pvp, so...
Found the problem.
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
254
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Posted - 2012.02.07 03:11:00 -
[413] - Quote
I wouldnt mind losing the learning implants, but do like their uniqueness in the game. Not sure what to replace them with.
Only think I can think of is like learning stones in CQ, not sure if that will be a hit though. Other then that can only think of learning skills again :). Make learning skills like rigging is designed. Cybernetics for the core skill. Then the attribute skill maybe it will be a 2x skill to train after cybernetics. Want the learning skill at 4 train cyber to 4 then that skill. or want 5 train cyber to 5 then that skill. Maybe make the attribute skill a 1x one but thought that maybe too cheap.
Only thing I can think of, maybe better ideas. Threads like this generally result in anything positive.
Locked. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1948
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 04:33:00 -
[414] - Quote
Disdaine wrote:Hilmar Myhra wrote:Learning implants affect everyone and make people less willing to risk in pvp, so...
Found the problem.
the opinion of a pro-incarna, anti-csm incursion running roleplayer alt is hardly relevant andski for csm7~ |
Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
122
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 05:41:00 -
[415] - Quote
Think a lot of people are totally missing the point in this thread.
It's not about riskless pvp in null sec. Anyone living in null for longer than 10 minutes will probably be using a jump clone if they don't want to lose implants or have so much isk that they don't care anyway.
This is about removing an unnecessary barrier to new players that will not have jump clones nor the isk to replace implants if they get podded.
All the things mentioned in this thread about people not participating in fleet is usually from newer players that can't afford the losses the bitter vets can.
Anything that makes the game fun for new players can only ever be a good thing.
And before anyone says anything, yes I do live in null and I have not had any implants in over 3 years so I don't run any risk in loosing pods anyway. I couldn't care less about the 2-3 days I could save on learning something by having learning implants. It isn't that important. Playing the game and killing things is. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
245
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Posted - 2012.02.07 10:28:00 -
[416] - Quote
Smiling Menace wrote:Think a lot of people are totally missing the point in this thread.
It's not about riskless pvp in null sec. Anyone living in null for longer than 10 minutes will probably be using a jump clone if they don't want to lose implants or have so much isk that they don't care anyway.
This is about removing an unnecessary barrier to new players that will not have jump clones nor the isk to replace implants if they get podded.
All the things mentioned in this thread about people not participating in fleet is usually from newer players that can't afford the losses the bitter vets can.
Anything that makes the game fun for new players can only ever be a good thing.
And before anyone says anything, yes I do live in null and I have not had any implants in over 3 years so I don't run any risk in loosing pods anyway. I couldn't care less about the 2-3 days I could save on learning something by having learning implants. It isn't that important. Playing the game and killing things is.
There used to be corps that allowed people to get free jump clones. Is this no longer the case? Can't null sec alliances let people know how to get free jump clones?
Yeah people who learn about the game actually have advantages over people who remain ignorrant. Do we need to flatten that learning curve? Do we need to dumb down the game for everyone, so we can get more noobs in null sec blobs?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bonny Lee
Tobruk Heavy Industries Cascade Associates
0
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Posted - 2012.02.07 10:41:00 -
[417] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:Not supported. But I would support eliminating the timer on same-station clone swaps. Just like this. |
Bonny Lee
Tobruk Heavy Industries Cascade Associates
0
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Posted - 2012.02.07 10:43:00 -
[418] - Quote
Smiling Menace wrote:Think a lot of people are totally missing the point in this thread.
It's not about riskless pvp in null sec. Anyone living in null for longer than 10 minutes will probably be using a jump clone if they don't want to lose implants or have so much isk that they don't care anyway.
This is about removing an unnecessary barrier to new players that will not have jump clones nor the isk to replace implants if they get podded.
All the things mentioned in this thread about people not participating in fleet is usually from newer players that can't afford the losses the bitter vets can.
Anything that makes the game fun for new players can only ever be a good thing.
And before anyone says anything, yes I do live in null and I have not had any implants in over 3 years so I don't run any risk in loosing pods anyway. I couldn't care less about the 2-3 days I could save on learning something by having learning implants. It isn't that important. Playing the game and killing things is.
So why remove it? Why cant we find another solution. I do want to keep Implants and learning implants. They are part of EvE. Make it easier to get your first jumpclone perhaps. Make it possible to switch without timer if you are on the same station.
All problems are solved without deleting stuff out off the game.
And one thing you should consider: NOT Everything that is fun for new players is good for EvE. It would be fun for new players to fight in a titan after a month. But it wouldnt be good for eve. |
Shazzam Vokanavom
Hedion University Amarr Empire
63
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Posted - 2012.02.07 12:12:00 -
[419] - Quote
Bonny Lee wrote:So why remove it? Why cant we find another solution. I do want to keep Implants and learning implants. They are part of EvE. Make it easier to get your first jumpclone perhaps. Make it possible to switch without timer if you are on the same station.
All problems are solved without deleting stuff out off the game.
And one thing you should consider: NOT Everything that is fun for new players is good for EvE. It would be fun for new players to fight in a titan after a month. But it wouldnt be good for eve.
One possible solution could be to add insurance for implants.
"Reduces" but does not completley remove adverse risk associated with using them.
Adds another potentially significant ISK sink into the game.
Dual benefit without the need to simply delete content. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1953
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 17:24:00 -
[420] - Quote
Bonny Lee wrote:It would be fun for new players to fight in a titan after a month. But it wouldnt be good for eve.
One of our newbies actually scammed his way into one within his first two months
okay, not really andski for csm7~ |
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