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Xander Hunt
4
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Posted - 2011.12.19 12:05:00 -
[241] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Not supported. It is my opinion that having to make those choices (and for new players they *can* be difficult choices) are what sets Eve apart (read: above) other MMO's. Removing learning implants and granting everyone the +5 bonus auto-magically removes one layer of "choice" and "danger". I honestly don't think (again, imho) that removing implants are going to get people out pvp'ing more - "people" as a general rule, will do what they want when they're ready. Some guys/gals get in the game and are in 0.0 w/in two weeks, some never make that transition. Risk aversion exists before implants. vOv (FYI: Posting from main )
I agree mostly.
I agree that removing implants aren't going to increase PvP chances I agree that people will do what they want when they're ready. I acknowledge that I could get WTFP0WND in one volley by a toon who's two weeks old depending on what I'm flying. I don't agree that risk aversion exists before implants though.
Some people know the realities of 0.0 and some don't. Some know the realities of PvP and some don't.
Myself, I know the reality of both, and personally, I don't care to play this game for 0.0 or PvP. I know that I'm going to get dragged into PvP at sometime or another, and I won't have a choice about it at that point, but thats where my "fun" comes in. The risk of knowing I have something expensive someone wants to see up on their corp/alliance KB, and then "expect" that I'm going to cry about it. Come on... its a game... If anyone is going crying over virtual income, they really REALLY need to rethink why they're playing EVE and sinking REAL money into it.
I wonder if these same guys who get beat by NPC players in Civ style games cry when the CPU knocks them on their ass? .. oh.. wait... they just restart the game to avoid "being beat". |
GavinCapacitor
CaeIum Incognitum
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 16:14:00 -
[242] - Quote
First remaps, then the learning skills got removed, and now asking for this?
Next it will be "remove attributes, I don't want to plan a year ahead" etc.
You can take my 3 charisma from my cold, unsubbed, frozen corpse. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
83
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 16:33:00 -
[243] - Quote
GavinCapacitor wrote:Next it will be "remove attributes, I don't want to plan a year ahead" etc.
You can take my 3 charisma from my cold, unsubbed, frozen corpse. Funnily enough, Perpetuum (the EVE clone) removed attributes a while back AFAIK.
@OP/Thread: Having to make decisions is part of what makes EVE good. Stop trying to make EVE bad. It was bad enough that the learning skills got removed, this is just farcical.
This is a terrible thread, and we are all terrible people for posting in it. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Killstealing
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
210
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 21:57:00 -
[244] - Quote
supported, it's stupid, I don't even care about implants anymore when it means I can't even go on alphafleets because I might lose a set of +5s (losing a set of those actually hurts because you get laughed at) |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1361
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 22:28:00 -
[245] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:It was bad enough that the learning skills got removed
lol |
Velin Dhal
Blood Phage Syndicate The Dominion Empire
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 08:19:00 -
[246] - Quote
I've decided that since I broke my yellow crayon in second grade, that no one can use yellow crayons. If I can't use a yellow crayon no one else should be able to. I'd buy a new one but I'm too cheap and i'm scared that it will break again. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1362
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 08:30:00 -
[247] - Quote
Velin Dhal wrote:I've decided that since I broke my yellow crayon in second grade, that no one can use yellow crayons. If I can't use a yellow crayon no one else should be able to. I'd buy a new one but I'm too cheap and i'm scared that it will break again.
i've decided that you're an idiot |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1362
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 08:37:00 -
[248] - Quote
I can't see why you fail to discuss the facets of the proposal without making retarded metaphors to crayons and primary school. I figure it's easier to chalk it up to the autism spectrum, v0v |
Velin Dhal
Blood Phage Syndicate The Dominion Empire
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 08:44:00 -
[249] - Quote
Andski wrote:Crumplecorn wrote:It was bad enough that the learning skills got removed lol
I actually have to agree that removing the learning skills from the game was to the betterment of the game and the new player. It took months to train those skills and even though a lot of us suffered through it, it was a major detractor to the game from a new player perspective. Now that those have been removed, everyone begins the game with what was once considered "max learning skills".
However, I fail to see a logical argument as to why learning implants should be removed. I've seen a lot of posts here but as of yet still haven't seen anything valid. I've certainly seen no flaw in the game mechanics presented.
I honestly don't see any new players being awed into the game just because learning implants have gone away. Every single "new player" i've known in this game that has quit eve, has quit for reasons relating to highsec. Things relating to the lack of mission variety. Mining is boring. Things along those lines. I have never heard someone say they quit the game in the first month because I trained faster than they did.
I have however, seen quite a few older players E-rage in local because they got podded and their implants are on a killmail now. |
Velin Dhal
Blood Phage Syndicate The Dominion Empire
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 08:46:00 -
[250] - Quote
Andski wrote:I can't see why you fail to discuss the facets of the proposal without making retarded metaphors to crayons and primary school. I figure it's easier to chalk it up to the autism spectrum, v0v
You don't like crayons ? |
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Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 09:22:00 -
[251] - Quote
Velin Dhal wrote:Every single "new player" i've known in this game that has quit eve, has quit for reasons relating to highsec. Things relating to the lack of mission variety. Mining is boring. Things along those lines. I have never heard someone say they quit the game in the first month because I trained faster than they did.
Actually implants are a major reason why noobs are afraid to leave high-sec. They can easily change to a cheap ship but can't change to a cheap clone because they don't have jumpclones. And as a noob, learning faster is really appealing so they'll try to get +4's asap. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
95
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 09:46:00 -
[252] - Quote
Velin Dhal wrote:I actually have to agree that removing the learning skills from the game was to the betterment of the game and the new player. It took months to train those skills and even though a lot of us suffered through it, it was a major detractor to the game from a new player perspective. Now that those have been removed, everyone begins the game with what was once considered "max learning skills".
However, I fail to see a logical argument as to why learning implants should be removed. I've seen a lot of posts here but as of yet still haven't seen anything valid. I've certainly seen no flaw in the game mechanics presented. Everything that could be said about learning skills could be said about implants.
Look, somebody is doing is right above me. "You must train as fast as possible and that is an inconvenience because XYZ, so give noobs skills/implants for free". [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1362
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 09:53:00 -
[253] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Velin Dhal wrote:I actually have to agree that removing the learning skills from the game was to the betterment of the game and the new player. It took months to train those skills and even though a lot of us suffered through it, it was a major detractor to the game from a new player perspective. Now that those have been removed, everyone begins the game with what was once considered "max learning skills".
However, I fail to see a logical argument as to why learning implants should be removed. I've seen a lot of posts here but as of yet still haven't seen anything valid. I've certainly seen no flaw in the game mechanics presented. Everything that could be said about learning skills could be said about implants. Look, somebody is doing is right above me. "You must train as fast as possible and that is an inconvenience because XYZ, so give noobs skills/implants for free".
on the other hand, if you had your way those "noobs" wouldn't fly anything other than rifters for their first year |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
95
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 10:00:00 -
[254] - Quote
Andski wrote:on the other hand, if you had your way those "noobs" wouldn't fly anything other than rifters for their first year I joined before there was an enhanced NPE and I was running POSes in 0.0 and getting involved in alliance fleet battles in my first year, so if you know of any noobs who managed to be stuck in rifters for a year with the current NPE, tell them from me that they fail terribly and should go back to WoW. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 14:39:00 -
[255] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:I'm sympathetic to the idea behind this, but I won't easily support ideas where the solution to a problem is removing that aspect entirely from the game just to get rid of the issue. I would simply prefer to see a fix to the issue, since you have to address the same issue repeating with hardwirings anyway. That fix would be to allow easier access to jump clones and allowing local clone switching without any timers.
How I vision it is to basicly make jump clone access an easy, basic facet of the game. Easiest solution for this is propably to allow people to simply buy jump clones from the market and allow transferring them(generic jump clone template -item) as a normal item, so they are easy to move around and get. When you activate one it becomes one of your jumpclones and an implanted jump clone would function like a rigged ship, since they work in a very similar fashion. So basicly if you repack it, you lose the implants and it stops being your jump clone. If the goal is to have everyone have access to them, make it so you get one jumpclone and the required skill from a jumpclone tutorial.
I wouldn't lose any sleep if learning implants would go away, but as i said it would still leave the issue with having wrong hardwirings intact. That issue needs to be solved too and any solution to that issue will also solve the learning implant issue at the same time, since it's basicly the same problem. So once you have a fix for the hardwiring issue, you've also succesfully removed the need to remove learning implants.
Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?
Well, just throwing some ideas here. Not sure this is a good one. It's still like trying to have the best of both worlds, low risk and high reward. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |
Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 16:43:00 -
[256] - Quote
Quote:Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?
If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method. |
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 16:54:00 -
[257] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Quote:Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?
If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method.
Must have some delay, otherwise having perfect hardwiring for your fittings become kinda mandatory in small scale encounters. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
98
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 16:57:00 -
[258] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Quote:Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?
If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method.
Do you have a source for this claim?
Anway what does it matter what the original intent was? I'm sure many things in this game work out ok even if they are not used as intended.
edit: this seems like a less disruptive option than simply removing all learning implants from the game. If the only objection to it was the functional fixedness one expressed above then I think it would be a contender. Sadly I think there are other problems with reducing the timer to 4 hours. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 17:20:00 -
[259] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Quote:Say guys, if there was a shorter, 4h or something, timer for clone jumping within the same station, would it solve the issue with wrong hardwiring + learning implants?
If you're going down that route, you might as well allow implants to be plugged out without being destroyed. Jumpclones were meant to be as a means of travel to save pilots the excruciating 50 jumps back to empire, not as implant switching method. Do you have a source for this claim?
I'm not sure if it was ever explicitly said by CCP, but it's a fairly safe assumption if you know a bit of EVE history.
It was the response to people self-destructing their pods so they could reach their destination more quickly. It was common practice back then. It seems silly today, but warp to zero, jump bridges, capital ships, covert cloaks didn't exist and traveling through 0.0 was slow and painful. Red Moon Rising introduced jump clones as means of 'rapid fleet deployment'. Implant switching was probably an unintended but acceptable side-effect.
On a different note, it is well worth remembering how old EVE is and how much it has changed. Some things just don't make much sense in today's EVE and others never did. Not everybody realizes this, instead making the assumption that everything is working as intended and makes sense.
I would also support removal of attributes entirely for that matter, replacing it with a fixed sp/day. The attribute system we have seems like it was originally intended to promote uniqueness between characters but it just doesn't work out. EVE has evolved along a totally different path. All it does nowadays is reward year-long remaps and inflexibility. |
Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:07:00 -
[260] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:I would also support removal of attributes entirely for that matter, replacing it with a fixed sp/day. The attribute system we have seems like it was originally intended to promote uniqueness between characters but it just doesn't work out. EVE has evolved along a totally different path. All it does nowadays is reward year-long remaps and inflexibility.
You see, there is only one reason left why I don't support the complete removal of attributes (which is way more radical than the thread OP): there are a lot of people out there that wants more options to actively influence how fast their skill training goes.
There is some truth in these claims. After all it is your toon and you should be able to control him to be better at what you want him to (skill training, in this case).
But that may also be a reflex of people who played too much traditional RPG and MMO, where you are supposed to make insane ammounts of grinding to become high level.
But we are getting off-topic here. The thread is about how the implants end up excluding people from the PvP content in the long run, even if they don't realize it and even if it was due their decisions all along. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |
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Amarr Champine
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:44:00 -
[261] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Fear of podding (due to loss of implants) is a major reason why noobs are afraid to leave high-sec. They can easily change to a cheap ship but can't change to a cheap clone because they don't have jumpclones. And as a noob, learning faster is really appealing so they'll try to get the best implants they can as soon as possible. Arguing that this mechanic is NOT especially bad for new players is a rather narrow-minded position. And yes, noobs have implants from day one if they do their tutorial missions, which they should.
This is just silly...You want a jumpclone? Then get your standings up. No MMO should offer everything to you at once, in every MMO you have to grind in some way. In this case, you grind your standing up to get a jumpclone. There are also other alternatives to getting jumpclones. Any null sec group worth their salt should have a Rorq that will provide you with a jumpclone without the standings issue. It seems to me that you guys want to go from A-Z by skipping the rest of the alphabet. Video games and especially RPGs are about becoming stronger/working towards a better all around toon. Hell, even first person shooters are this way nowadays. (BF3, Modern Warfare) Seriously....If you don't want to actually play the game and want to be all powerful from the start, then why bother? |
Amarr Champine
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:49:00 -
[262] - Quote
Killstealing wrote:supported, it's stupid, I don't even care about implants anymore when it means I can't even go on alphafleets because I might lose a set of +5s (losing a set of those actually hurts because you get laughed at)
Is this a joke? You been playing eve for two days?
Get a jumpclone, there, problem solved. Otherwise stay the heck out of null or risk it. You try to not fail, have a proper scout and not get podded. Spent lots of time flying around 6v in crystals mind you and never got podded once. We always had a scout and alternative warp to avoid bubbles. Try to fail alil less and this wont be such a problem. |
Amarr Champine
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:50:00 -
[263] - Quote
Killstealing wrote:supported, it's stupid, I don't even care about implants anymore when it means I can't even go on alphafleets because I might lose a set of +5s (losing a set of those actually hurts because you get laughed at)
Is this a joke? You been playing eve for two days?
Get a jumpclone, there, problem solved. Otherwise stay the heck out of null or risk it. You try to not fail, have a proper scout and not get podded. Spent lots of time flying around and never got podded once. We always had a scout and alternative warp to avoid bubbles. Try to fail alil less and this wont be such a problem. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1364
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:51:00 -
[264] - Quote
Amarr Champine wrote:This is just silly...You want a jumpclone? Then get your standings up. No MMO should offer everything to you at once, in every MMO you have to grind in some way. In this case, you grind your standing up to get a jumpclone. There are also other alternatives to getting jumpclones. Any null sec group worth their salt should have a Rorq that will provide you with a jumpclone without the standings issue. It seems to me that you guys want to go from A-Z by skipping the rest of the alphabet. Video games and especially RPGs are about becoming stronger/working towards a better all around toon. Hell, even first person shooters are this way nowadays. (BF3, Modern Warfare) Seriously....If you don't want to actually play the game and want to be all powerful from the start, then why bother?
character sales void your point entirely ;p |
Amarr Champine
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:53:00 -
[265] - Quote
Andski wrote:Amarr Champine wrote:This is just silly...You want a jumpclone? Then get your standings up. No MMO should offer everything to you at once, in every MMO you have to grind in some way. In this case, you grind your standing up to get a jumpclone. There are also other alternatives to getting jumpclones. Any null sec group worth their salt should have a Rorq that will provide you with a jumpclone without the standings issue. It seems to me that you guys want to go from A-Z by skipping the rest of the alphabet. Video games and especially RPGs are about becoming stronger/working towards a better all around toon. Hell, even first person shooters are this way nowadays. (BF3, Modern Warfare) Seriously....If you don't want to actually play the game and want to be all powerful from the start, then why bother? character sales void your point entirely ;p
If that is the option people take, then no it doesn't void my point. It helps it. Spend money or isk and you can have access to a toon with a jumpclone. Whammy, problem solved yet again. In either case, you promote the game. You are are either working in real life to buy plex or you are working in-game to get the isk. Still requires work. CCP isn't giving you a free overpowered toon. I actually sold a toon to a goon a month or two ago, he got it.
Look I can do it too.
() () (^ ^) mm
bunny! |
Amarr Champine
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:57:00 -
[266] - Quote
ugh double post fail |
Alexander Jabez
Reaper Co. The Dominion Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 19:01:00 -
[267] - Quote
This all comes back to flying in what you can afford to lose. Can't afford to get podded w/ +5's in your head? use +4's. Can't afford to lose that bhaalgorn you just bought? Stick with the geddon. You choose what you fly, how you fly it, and who you fly it with. There is no game mechanic flaw with learning implants, the only flaw is how people fly.
And noobs really have no reason to be flying around with expensive implants. The average skill train time for a new player is probably around a day for the first month or two, the bonus that the implants would give wouldn't even be that effective. And when the implants would become useful the pilot should be reaching a point where they can afford them better. Especially if they are in a good corp.
As a few others have posted before me, you want to fix the problem of losing implants jump into a different clone or learn to fly better. Neither are very difficult. |
Velin Dhal
Blood Phage Syndicate The Dominion Empire
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 19:03:00 -
[268] - Quote
Orisa Medeem wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:I would also support removal of attributes entirely for that matter, replacing it with a fixed sp/day. The attribute system we have seems like it was originally intended to promote uniqueness between characters but it just doesn't work out. EVE has evolved along a totally different path. All it does nowadays is reward year-long remaps and inflexibility. You see, there is only one reason left why I don't support the complete removal of attributes (which is way more radical than the thread OP): there are a lot of people out there that wants more options to actively influence how fast their skill training goes. There is some truth in these claims. After all it is your toon and you should be able to control him to be better at what you want him to (skill training, in this case). But that may also be a reflex of people who played too much traditional RPG and MMO, where you are supposed to make insane ammounts of grinding to become high level. But we are getting off-topic here. The thread is about how the implants end up excluding people from the PvP content in the long run, even if they don't realize it and even if it was due their decisions all along.
Learning implants promote new players to work in the game to get better implants or it promotes them to load up the EVE website and buy PLEX. Either way, its good for EVE. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
34
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 20:16:00 -
[269] - Quote
Forum Alts: I kind of agree with our Goon friend. My posts would yield no credence had I used an alt. I think I raised some good points and addressed the OP thoroughly. ThatGÇÖs all IGÇÖll say on that one.
Older Players: Eve should, and has been designed to, favor older players. It is a given. That said, life should not be made too difficult to new players. They should not have nearly the benefits that older players enjoy, but this is a game and should be fun regardless of character age.
PvP Entry: While removal of learning implants may persuade a few players to PvP, I donGÇÖt think this would affect the majority of players. The loss of other implants, modules, and ships are also considerations. Honestly, I think you would be surprised how few payers have +5s and still do not engage in PvP.
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Lierena
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 09:19:00 -
[270] - Quote
I have a set of +4's and pew pew regardless. This idea is based on the belief that implants make people not want to go do other things in eve, and as far as logical fallacies go this one is pretty basic. The idea that pew pew is the end all be all of EVE is wrong, as there are many things for a pilot of New Eden to do in our wonderfully diverse universe, and that the only thing keeping new players from getting out there to 'play eve' as you see it is a set of implants that this hypothetical new player couldn't presumably afford for a while. If people like you, me, or anyone else want to spend their hard earned (or not so hard earned) isk on implants that'll give higher skill points, that's our right as players. If you prefer to not use them out of a fear of being podded, however, then that too is your right as a player. Logically, I can only see the removal of these implants having a largely positive impact for the nullsec player base, rather than the base as a whole. As such, I cannot support this proposal, and call on non nullsec players to stand with me.
And, on a side note, I can't help but notice that this first page is full of goon and test members almost exclusively... Two of the biggest nullsec alliances pushing for something that'll greatly affect them, regardless of the impact (or lack thereof) everywhere else. |
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