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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:08:34 -
[1] - Quote
"Engaging with and disrupting enemy activities with small gangs should slowly erode their strategic defenses"
Does anyone else notice this doesn't actually work? A small gang roam interrupts in space activities for maybe 5 minutes, leaving 22 hours and 55 minutes to get indices back up. If you camp a "small gang" in middle of hostile space for too long, it'll inevitably get bashed by overwhelming force. Hence why roams stay on the move.
If you can get a large enough blob to camp a system for long terms, you can just use the same blob to capture even against indices.
This leaves _______ as the only effective tool to decrease indices. The problem with that is, ppl flock to other systems as a result, leaving no targets for small gangs, which decrease incentive for roams instead of increase it as originally intended. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34302
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:11:34 -
[2] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:This leaves afk camper as the only effective tool to decrease indices. Didn't we have this thread already?
If you are worried about AFK cloakers, just go get a bigger pair of balls.
As to the judgement of all the problems with that sentence, we'll just have to wait and see.
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 02:13:13 -
[3] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:This leaves afk camper as the only effective tool to decrease indices. Didn't we have this thread already? If you are worried about AFK cloakers, just go get a bigger pair of balls. As to the judgement of all the problems with that sentence, we'll just have to wait and see.
Thank you. Post edited to remove "afk." There is no need to remove "cloaker" as the word did not appear anywhere in thread until you mentioned it. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34302
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:14:42 -
[4] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Thank you. Post edited to remove "afk." There is no need to remove "cloaker" as the word did not appear anywhere in thread until you mentioned it. So someone is going to be AFK uncloaked?
Where's the problem then?
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 02:21:37 -
[5] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:Thank you. Post edited to remove "afk." There is no need to remove "cloaker" as the word did not appear anywhere in thread until you mentioned it. So someone is going to be AFK uncloaked? Where's the problem then?
I've actually seen someone bouncing through safes for upward of 10 hours (presumably on macro), effectively landing on different grids every single jump due to cap running out every time. It's likely a test for camping method after afk cloakie gets nerfed.
The reason I'm mentioning this is so you realize that this thread has to do with new sov mechanics and its intention to encourage small gangs, and has nothing to do with cloaker, because there are plenty of other ways. |
Zoe Athame
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
217
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:23:43 -
[6] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:Thank you. Post edited to remove "afk." There is no need to remove "cloaker" as the word did not appear anywhere in thread until you mentioned it. So someone is going to be AFK uncloaked? Where's the problem then? I've actually seen someone bouncing through safes for upward of 10 hours (presumably on macro), effectively landing on different grids every single jump due to cap running out every time. It's likely a test for camping method after afk cloakie gets nerfed. The reason I'm mentioning this is so you realize that this thread has to do with new sov mechanics and its intention to encourage small gangs, and has nothing to do with cloaker, because there are plenty of other ways.
So you tried to probe one guy for upwards of 10 hours? I've heard null is boring, but jeez. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:28:13 -
[7] - Quote
Zoe Athame wrote:sabre906 wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:Thank you. Post edited to remove "afk." There is no need to remove "cloaker" as the word did not appear anywhere in thread until you mentioned it. So someone is going to be AFK uncloaked? Where's the problem then? I've actually seen someone bouncing through safes for upward of 10 hours (presumably on macro), effectively landing on different grids every single jump due to cap running out every time. It's likely a test for camping method after afk cloakie gets nerfed. The reason I'm mentioning this is so you realize that this thread has to do with new sov mechanics and its intention to encourage small gangs, and has nothing to do with cloaker, because there are plenty of other ways. So you tried to probe one guy for upwards of 10 hours? I've heard null is boring, but jeez.
No. I suck too much at probing to try to probe anything. Someone tried for almost 20 minutes, and was ask on ts. I warped to sun, watched directional, figured out what's going on, and told them. I came back to the system 10 hours later, and he was still there. He was probably bouncing for more than 10 hours. They supposedly reported the guy for botting, but I don't know what came of it, if anything.
Anyway, this thread has nothing to do with afk cloaking. It was your assumption, and a wrong one too. If CCP were to remove cloak tomorrow, it wouldn't change anything. Please stop derailing the thread. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34302
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:29:10 -
[8] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:I've actually seen someone bouncing through safes for upward of 10 hours (presumably on macro), effectively landing on different grids every single jump due to cap running out every time. It's likely a test for camping method after afk cloakie gets nerfed.
The reason I'm mentioning this is so you realize that this thread has to do with new sov mechanics and its intention to encourage small gangs, and has nothing to do with cloaker, because there are plenty of other ways. Then again. Where is the problem with one guy bouncing around safes and the new sov mechanics?
To take your last sentence from your OP as the premise of your thread, and adding in your new example:
"This leaves one guy bouncing around safes as the only effective tool to decrease indices."
Sorry? What?
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
20160
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 02:29:51 -
[9] - Quote
I see the 'grrrrrr AFK Cloaking' crowd is coming out of the woodwork today.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:31:18 -
[10] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:I've actually seen someone bouncing through safes for upward of 10 hours (presumably on macro), effectively landing on different grids every single jump due to cap running out every time. It's likely a test for camping method after afk cloakie gets nerfed.
The reason I'm mentioning this is so you realize that this thread has to do with new sov mechanics and its intention to encourage small gangs, and has nothing to do with cloaker, because there are plenty of other ways. Then again. Where is the problem with one guy bouncing around safes and the new sov mechanics?
Reread my post. It identifies "problem" at the end.
sabre906 wrote:"Engaging with and disrupting enemy activities with small gangs should slowly erode their strategic defenses" Does anyone else notice this doesn't actually work? A small gang roam interrupts in space activities for maybe 5 minutes, leaving 22 hours and 55 minutes to get indices back up. If you camp a "small gang" in middle of hostile space for too long, it'll inevitably get bashed by overwhelming force. Hence why roams stay on the move. If you can get a large enough blob to camp a system for long terms, you can just use the same blob to capture even against indices. This leaves _______ as the only effective tool to decrease indices. The problem with that is, ppl flock to other systems as a result, leaving no targets for small gangs, which decrease incentive for roams instead of increase it as originally intended. |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34302
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 02:32:44 -
[11] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Reread my post. It identifies "problem" at the end. Yes, take a look at my edit too. We poested/edited at the same time.
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:45:03 -
[12] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:Reread my post. It identifies "problem" at the end. Yes, take a look at my edit too. We poested/edited at the same time.
Yes, I see your edit. And it's still wrong. Safe bouncing without cap is merely 2nd methods among countless methods that people are about to come up with, should the incentive arise (such as new sov). The 3rd I've observed is burning into nowhere with a cap stable fast boat. When you scan him down and warp in on him, he's already off the grid.
My point is, the new sov defense system needs work. It states its purpose as encourage both in-space activities and small gang roams to disrupt it, when instead it discourages both.
I don't want to nerf cloakie, or safe bouncing, or burning towards nowhere - it's a pointless whack-a-mole anyway. I want sov defense system tweaked so it does what it's stated to do. For example, kills decreasing indices (or increasing it, if kills by owner) would be a mechanic that works towards the stated goals. Encourage afkness, as it currently does, is the opposite of what it's intended to do. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34306
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:50:56 -
[13] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Yes, I see your edit. And it's still wrong. Safe bouncing without cap is merely 2nd methods among countless methods that people are about to come up with Then how does statement that "This leaves XYZ as the only effective tool to decrease indices" even apply?
If people are going to come up with countless methods now, then surely that means there isn't only one effective tool.
So, no problem.
Quote:My point is, the new sov defense system needs work. It states its purpose as encourage both in-space activities and small gang roams to disrupt it, when instead it discourages both. You don't know this for certain.
You've now already shifted from AFK camping, to one guy bouncing around safes, to another guy burning in with a fast ship, to countless methods.
Without any experience using the new mechanics, this is apparently all bad.
Quote: Encourage afkness, as it currently does, is the opposite of what it's intended to do. We are back to what you really mean.
If you are worried about someone who is AFK (cloaked or macro bouncing around safes), the problem isn't with them.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10029
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:55:26 -
[14] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:"Engaging with and disrupting enemy activities with small gangs should slowly erode their strategic defenses" Does anyone else notice this doesn't actually work? A small gang roam interrupts in space activities for maybe 5 minutes, leaving 22 hours and 55 minutes to get indices back up. If you camp a "small gang" in middle of hostile space for too long, it'll inevitably get bashed by overwhelming force. Hence why roams stay on the move. If you can get a large enough blob to camp a system for long terms, you can just use the same blob to capture even against indices. This leaves _______ as the only effective tool to decrease indices. The problem with that is, ppl flock to other systems as a result, leaving no targets for small gangs, which decrease incentive for roams instead of increase it as originally intended.
That's not the only reason it doesn't work. The other reason is "I wonder who can make a whole freaking bunch of small gangs, oh that's right, the ALREADY BIG GUYS. Hashtag Malcanis'LAW4Real. The reasoning behind sov isn't bad, it's just that no amount of reasoning can defeat basic human nature.
The new Sov system will be cool in the beginning because it'si's new. Dominion was, so were Incursions. Then 15 seconds after launch people will figure things out and exploit the more than obvious flaws in the system and people will be wish for the return of Dominion (in the same way as people realized that the pos based Sov pre-dominion "wasn't that bad in hindsight" LOL).
Every time I close my eyes I hear Battlestar Galactica music and some dude whispering "this has happened before, it will happen again" |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23613
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 02:58:33 -
[15] - Quote
AFK Cloaking is psychological warfare. The conversation here verifies that it works and is effective. Since AFK Cloaking is purely psychological, it has no impact from a game mechanics point of view, so calling it overpowered would not make any sense.
You guys are giving CCP every possible reason to leave this mechanic intact in place.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 03:06:17 -
[16] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:Yes, I see your edit. And it's still wrong. Safe bouncing without cap is merely 2nd methods among countless methods that people are about to come up with Then how does statement that "This leaves XYZ as the only effective tool to decrease indices" even apply? If people are going to come up with countless methods now, then surely that means there isn't only one effective tool. So, no problem. Quote:My point is, the new sov defense system needs work. It states its purpose as encourage both in-space activities and small gang roams to disrupt it, when instead it discourages both. You don't know this for certain. You've now already shifted from AFK camping, to one guy bouncing around safes, to another guy burning in with a fast ship, to countless methods. Without any experience using the new mechanics, this is apparently all bad. Quote: Encourage afkness, as it currently does, is the opposite of what it's intended to do. We are back to what you really mean. If you are worried about someone who is AFK (cloaked or macro bouncing around safes), the problem isn't with them.
For your information, I rat with 2 sentry Archons and a Rapier, in a system outside hotdrop range of anywhere nonblue. And yes, the archons are ehp fit, yes, they have more spare drones than China has rice, and yes, they have rrs, cap transfer, and neut. If roam tacklers wants to tackle 2 archons with a Rapier, they know where to find me. If I lose them, it's all good, I'll have some kms to show for it. No, I don't fit pimp, and yes, the Archons are insured.
Now that you know about me, you know it's not about me. People will continue to failfit, and just move to another system. Fact.
Now, reread my posts, and know it's about new sov, its stated purpose, and why it needs tweaking.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34308
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Posted - 2015.03.04 03:14:48 -
[17] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Now, reread my posts, and know it's about new sov, its stated purpose, and why it needs tweaking. There's no need to read it all again.
It's all quite clear. I'm not interested in you personally. i'm sure you're a nice guy and all. I'm only addressing the ideas, which are all over the place currently.
Without any experience with the new system, 'tweaking' based on what objective data?
The AFK thread has already been done today (and locked). This is just a repeat.
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
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Posted - 2015.03.04 03:25:14 -
[18] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:sabre906 wrote:Now, reread my posts, and know it's about new sov, its stated purpose, and why it needs tweaking. There's no need to read it all again. It's all quite clear. I'm not interested in you personally. i'm sure you're a nice guy and all. I'm only addressing the ideas, which are all over the place currently. Without any experience with the new system, 'tweaking' based on what objective data? The AFK thread has already been done today (and locked). This is just a repeat.
Sorry if I wasn't being clear. The confusion has more to do with people assuming afk camper whine when it's not there.
Dev blog states the goal of new system is to encourage in space activity and "Engaging with and disrupting enemy activities with small gangs should slowly erode their strategic defenses."
What I'm pointing out with the new system is it discourages both "in-space activities" due to afk camping (in various forms) being the most effective way to decrease indices, and "small gang" roams, due to camped systems not having targets in space.
A possible solution I offered is Kill based indices - roam gets kills, decrease indices, owner kills roams, increase indices. I'm sure there are many loopholes in that. Feel free to point it out and discuss. Or post your own idea that works.
But don't get hanged up on "cloaking" or any other camping methods. Especially when it's imaginary - I never mentioned it to begin with. They're besides the point, and derails the real topic. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34308
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 03:39:29 -
[19] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Sorry if I wasn't being clear. The confusion has more to do with people assuming afk cloaking thread when it's not there.
Dev blog states the goal of new system is to encourage in space activity and "Engaging with and disrupting enemy activities with small gangs should slowly erode their strategic defenses."
What I'm pointing out with the new system is it discourages both "in-space activities" due to afk camping (in various forms) being the most effective way to decrease indices, and "small gang" roams, due to camped systems not having targets in space.
The only effective way to AFK camp, is to AFK cloak.
The botter you are talking about before is easy to deal with if he is not cloaked.
The only reason this thread keeps coming back to AFK is because that's the basis for it, stated repeatedly.
Quote:A possible solution I offered is Kill based indices - roam gets kills, decrease indices, owner kills roams, increase indices. I'm sure there are many loopholes in that. Feel free to point it out and discuss. Or post your own idea that works. That works for strategic index and it's a great suggestion. I totally support it, in addition to mining and ratting. PVP involvement in the index is just as good and both PVE and PVP would be good to include in evaluating "occupancy based"' sov (or activity based sov, or whatever term doesn't really matter).
Quote:But don't get hanged up on "cloaking" or any other camping methods. Especially when it's imaginary - I never mentioned it to begin with. They're besides the point, and derails the real topic. Drop AFK as being the only effective method.
AFK is not effective to begin with, except against the paranoid.
Quote:...what I care is the new sov mechanics apparently giving massive extra incentives to afk camp as the sole effective way to soften up a system in order to take sov. Is this an AFK thread, or not an AFK thread?
It certainly looks like a grr AFK thread.
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
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Posted - 2015.03.04 03:58:14 -
[20] - Quote
With human nature being what it is, people will be paranoid, they will continue failfit their ratting boats, and continue to go somewhere else when there's an afk camper. I don't, as you already noticed. I'm sure you don't either. But people will.
Afk camping was, is, and will always be the most effective way to decrease in-space activity that's tied into system defense of new sov mechanics. We can't change human nature, only sov mechanics.
I have no problems with POS bashing, but when Sov mechanics gets tied into it as a mandatory activity, it goes somewhere ugly. Afk camping in it's various/countless manifestations is the same. With human nature being what it is, afk camping will be the go-to tool for sov warfare.
Afk grind - the new kind of grind replacing ehp grind, but now afk.
All I'm saying is that afk-ness should not be tied into sov system. It's fine by itself, but not as part of sov. If nothing's done to tweak the new sov (afk camping is fine, as long as it's disconnected form sov), you'll be looking back years later and say "yeah, I remember sov warfare, first there was pos spamming, then there was ehp grinding, then there was afk camper spamming. We went from spamming, to grinding, to both spamming and grinding with a pitch of afkness." |
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23613
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Posted - 2015.03.04 04:22:56 -
[21] - Quote
sabre906 wrote: A possible solution I offered is Kill based indices - roam gets kills, decrease indices, owner kills roams, increase indices. I'm sure there are many loopholes in that. Feel free to point it out and discuss. Or post your own idea that works.
Can't fake NPC kills or mining, but you can sit there and rack up kill indices with alts. This is probably why this isn't a Kill Military Index contributor.
Edit: also wanted to respond to this.
Quote:All I'm saying is that afk-ness should not be tied into sov system. It's fine by itself, but not as part of sov.
It isn't. Killing mining and ratting assets is more effective in that it attacks occupancy as well as destroys ISK. Groups who are intimidated by AFK cloakers will be seeing an uphill battle with occupancy. You may be right in that AFK cloaking may become the tactic de jour moreso than it is today (also because people are risk averse and don't want gudfites), but I fail to see why that's a bad thing.
If fear is crippling, then it costs you occupancy. Seems fine to me. If anything AFK cloaking becomes a 'boy who cried wolf' situation. At some point people may start ignoring AFK cloakers since the mechanic will be so overused. Isn't that a good thing?
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1640
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 04:28:41 -
[22] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:sabre906 wrote: A possible solution I offered is Kill based indices - roam gets kills, decrease indices, owner kills roams, increase indices. I'm sure there are many loopholes in that. Feel free to point it out and discuss. Or post your own idea that works.
Can't fake NPC kills or mining, but you can sit there and rack up kill indices with alts. This is probably why this isn't a Kill Index contributor.
Indeed... Just throwing out ideas, gonna be full of loopholes. Feel free to suggest viable alternatives. That's what this thread is for. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23613
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 04:29:59 -
[23] - Quote
Hey sabre, I wouldn't mind if you checked out my edit above and responded to the second part too. And thanks for the discussion.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10032
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 04:38:35 -
[24] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:
But short of abandoning any kind of sov
The longer I play EVE the more that actually sounds like a good thing. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1641
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 04:43:21 -
[25] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:sabre906 wrote:
But short of abandoning any kind of sov
The longer I play EVE the more that actually sounds like a good thing.
It's simpler back then, wasn't it?
Sibyyl wrote: Hey sabre, I wouldn't mind if you checked out my edit above and responded to the second part too. And thanks for the discussion.
Post edited.
Again, I know how people should behave regarding afk campers. But we can't deal with what should be, we deal with what is. I just don't want to see "afk spamming/grinding iteration of sov warfare," that's all. Sov warfare should be set up in a way that doesn't depend on afk camping to drop system defense. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4350
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Posted - 2015.03.04 04:46:28 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:Forum rules23. Post constructively.Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. Closed.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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