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Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
133
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Posted - 2015.05.03 00:02:34 -
[211] - Quote
And I am sure that the Civic Court and other Imperial entities that engage in this practice are empowered by the Throne to lend the services of slaves, via the markets, in the same way as an individual holder may do with his or her own stock. I am not myself familiar with the intricacies of the contract law employed by the Civic Court but I am confident that the appropriate licenses and CSCs are attached to the slaves which are within their power to trade through the markets, SCC and domestic. Which is why in my initial statement I assumed that the petition must be alleging conspiracy to sell slave services without the proper authorization and suggested appropriate caution in leveling such grievous claims against the Imperial Government.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1455
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Posted - 2015.05.03 00:15:39 -
[212] - Quote
What you say above is why I have said that it is a loophole. It is an indecent attempt at exploiting foreign markets to bypass religious laws. It is the effort of certain liberal houses and organizations that put wealth over piety and see the Scriptures not as something to be obeyed as strict doctrine but instead to be evaded and deceived in whatever way makes them the most profit.
This has left Holder rights eroded, our slave markets depleting, and countless slaves butchered by heretics or stolen by liberators. All so that a few people can line their pockets.
The Empire serves God, not our wallets. These policies must be changed. Amarr laws must be built on Scripture, not foreign kredit.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Norrin Ellis
Venture Racing
305
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Posted - 2015.05.03 00:21:25 -
[213] - Quote
Signed.
CEO, Venture Racing
Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
80
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Posted - 2015.05.03 02:50:26 -
[214] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:I am not making an interpretation, my lord. I am stating a fact. The divine rights of Holders are spelt out in Scriptures, and they make very clear that among those rights is the sole permanent ownership of slaves.
You are correct.
So how is it that the "group B model" in Khanid is not only allowed to exist, but was ratified by a treaty signed by the Empire and King Khanid II? Are you saying that the Empire went against Scripture?
I've been going through the treaties...did you know that Khanid isn't even bound by Empress Jamyl's Decree? It has no power in the Kingdom, leaving Khanid to keep their slaves of 9th and greater generation. While the religious leaders in the Kingdom still espouse the concept of slavery as a form of putative enlightenment, many consider this little more than lip service.
But Khanid is a part of the Empire. Khanid is a part of the same treaties and trade agreements that every government signed with CONCORD. This was all decided a long time ago, by people of greater rank and deeper understanding of Scripture than you or I.
Ergo, CONCORD and the Empire are not going to even look at this petition. They would just as soon abolish all slavery.
Now can we end this farce and turn our attention to more important issues?
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4765
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Posted - 2015.05.03 09:58:21 -
[215] - Quote
Politics is the art of the possible. Khanid II has been quite clear about expanding his 'stock' of slaves. I understand some people make good money selling POWs, criminals and the like to the more unscrupulous of the Khanid slaver rings.
I'm sure Jamyl would exert her will, if she thought Khanid would take the public order hit that denying his Lords slaves would cause him. But he can't, so he won't, so she won't. That doesn't speak to what anybody wants.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1460
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Posted - 2015.05.03 12:43:46 -
[216] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:So how is it that the "group B model" in Khanid is not only allowed to exist, but was ratified by a treaty signed by the Empire and King Khanid II? Are you saying that the Empire went against Scripture?
The Empire does not intervene in other sovereign nations' internal affairs under current international treaties. The Kingdom is not part of the Empire, we are just allied. If the Kingdom did proper rejoin the Empire again, then its heresies would be purged.
Quote:While the religious leaders in the Kingdom still espouse the concept of slavery as a form of putative enlightenment, many consider this little more than lip service.
The Kingdom does not have religious leaders.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
178
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Posted - 2015.05.03 20:35:45 -
[217] - Quote
Mrs Kernher petition that you are pushing so vigorously can lead to some very undesirable results, it saddens me you do not see that or maybe you do and all of this petition fuss is just a facade and smokescreens covering the true goal. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1461
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Posted - 2015.05.03 21:05:02 -
[218] - Quote
How dare you accuse this of being a facade. What undesirable results could possibly arise from going back to the trade restrictions that we maintained without issue before the SCC was spawned? What was wrong with the original trading laws, like the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement? Under those policies, trade goods were strictly controlled and only Holders and licensed representatives were allowed to engage in business with foreign traders. Those policies preserved our cultural values, they upheld our religious principles. The liberal economics of the last few decades have ruined all of that. Maybe Amarr is making more money as a result, but it is the Deceiver's money.
Forgive me for actually caring about our traditions. Forgive me for asking that Scriptural laws be held above secular foreign ones. Forgive me for actually caring about what happens to the people I came from.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
81
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Posted - 2015.05.03 21:24:50 -
[219] - Quote
Ah, Kernher, Kernher...
Your na+»vet+¬ is refreshing.
As you are, I was.
As I am, you will be.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
331
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Posted - 2015.05.03 21:25:07 -
[220] - Quote
On the one hand, this movement would reduce the amount of targets we need to hit to go about freeing our people and keep slaves out of the hands of jack wagons like Naupilius. On the other hand we wouldn't be able to free them directly from the market, those slave convoys are going to get higher security, and I don't really care for the thought of encouraging your misguided "divine right" to own people..... so is half a signature sufficient?
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
957
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Posted - 2015.05.04 09:25:20 -
[221] - Quote
I still think that this petition would be better addressed to the SCC. A lot less concerned parties (one, the SCC, versus millions all with their personal agendas), and also the other factions would have their word in the decision too, and knowing that their opinion is likely to abolish slave trading on the SCC intergalatic markets, the resolution of such a treaty would be a lot easier to achieve. |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
67
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Posted - 2015.05.04 10:06:01 -
[222] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:On the one hand, this movement would reduce the amount of targets we need to hit to go about freeing our people and keep slaves out of the hands of jack wagons like Naupilius. On the other hand we wouldn't be able to free them directly from the market, those slave convoys are going to get higher security, and I don't really care for the thought of encouraging your misguided "divine right" to own people..... so is half a signature sufficient?
Free them directly from the market?
Once upon a time it I believe it was U'K policy, and also EM policy, not to pay money for slaves on the understanding that doing so merely encouraged the system that trades in them. Has this changed? If so I am saddened to hear it.
Still I like the idea of taking slaves off the market so that the crazier bits of the capsuleer community can't easily get them in order to torment them.
Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
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Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
100
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Posted - 2015.05.04 11:56:44 -
[223] - Quote
In support of this petition, I will only trade slaves with the Families, or through personal dealings with known Holders, not the open market.
But wait, I was already doing that..... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4769
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Posted - 2015.05.04 14:48:55 -
[224] - Quote
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:Still I like the idea of taking slaves off the market so that the crazier bits of the capsuleer community can't easily get them in order to torment them.
Yeah. This is my main motivation. My secondary motivation for signing is that slavery is supposed to be prohibited outside of very special circumstances and only in Amarr space. It goes against the grain to paint a trade illegal and then provide an infrastructure framework for it.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
336
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Posted - 2015.05.04 16:58:45 -
[225] - Quote
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:On the one hand, this movement would reduce the amount of targets we need to hit to go about freeing our people and keep slaves out of the hands of jack wagons like Naupilius. On the other hand we wouldn't be able to free them directly from the market, those slave convoys are going to get higher security, and I don't really care for the thought of encouraging your misguided "divine right" to own people..... so is half a signature sufficient? Free them directly from the market? Once upon a time it I believe it was U'K policy, and also EM policy, not to pay money for slaves on the understanding that doing so merely encouraged the system that trades in them. Has this changed? If so I am saddened to hear it. Still I like the idea of taking slaves off the market so that the crazier bits of the capsuleer community can't easily get them in order to torment them. I haven't always been part of the U'K, I abide by the policy of my alliance. It doesn't mean I disagree with the people who are acting in such a manner.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
340
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Posted - 2015.05.04 18:55:12 -
[226] - Quote
Yes, remove slaves from the SCC markets for good.
-áFear The Tribes
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Jade Blackwind
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
501
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Posted - 2015.05.04 20:03:51 -
[227] - Quote
Seriously, remove it. This is disgusting to say the least. |
cimqe nyeeu
camdy and Co. inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.05.04 21:03:52 -
[228] - Quote
not signed
i believe everyone has the right to have a slave not just the elite few |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
336
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Posted - 2015.05.04 22:18:40 -
[229] - Quote
U'tah Arareb wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh what part of Quote:And to those foreigners who will try to interject here and call for abolition: Don't. If you value the life and health of slaves, don't derail this thread. You would only be weakening this proposal and hurting the very people you want to protect. did you not understand? Everything between "And" and "protect". We've all know this isn't about protecting the slaves, but returning the Empire back to it's roots. I'm half expecting a call for another reclaiming. You know, just to remind people what the Amarr empire is all about. Destroying cultures and whatnot.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Max Singularity
House Singularity
116
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Posted - 2015.05.06 20:44:53 -
[230] - Quote
Congratulations on this message making an official The Scope banner feed!!
May they all be free. May we all be free.
Harbinger of Faith his Holiness Maximilian Singularity of the Sixth Empire, Pope of New Eden
-First of his name-
((My doctors try to tell me Eve is not real... pffft... I've seen the YouTube Video. Eve is Real))
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1473
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Posted - 2015.05.06 21:02:18 -
[231] - Quote
Max Singularity wrote: Congratulations on this message making an official The Scope banner feed!!
May they all be free. May we all be free.
This measure is not about abolition. It is only about upholding traditional restrictions on who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders alone.
If you are looking to end slavery, then this is not the place for it.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Max Singularity
House Singularity
117
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Posted - 2015.05.06 23:46:35 -
[232] - Quote
Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this.
Harbinger of Faith his Holiness Maximilian Singularity of the Sixth Empire, Pope of New Eden
-First of his name-
((My doctors try to tell me Eve is not real... pffft... I've seen the YouTube Video. Eve is Real))
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
76
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Posted - 2015.05.07 04:04:32 -
[233] - Quote
Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this.
What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith.
Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight. |
Plan Neun
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2015.05.07 13:34:49 -
[234] - Quote
Not signed
This peace of paper is worth nothing. It will only create an even bigger black market and illegal flow of misery for those envolved. The pirate cartels will ofcourse welcome this.
This is a silly as banning milk, yeay to the gallentes for that!
" Invader's blood marches through my veins like giant radioactive rubber pants! "
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4796
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Posted - 2015.05.08 00:56:30 -
[235] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this. What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith. Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight. The Caldari would decline the opportunity to struggle under their weight. They're not OUR slaves, after all and doesn't freedom suggest some degree of responsibility for their own fate? Anything else and they would just be changing masters and collars...
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
80
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Posted - 2015.05.08 04:00:25 -
[236] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this. What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith. Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight. The Caldari would decline the opportunity to struggle under their weight. They're not OUR slaves, after all and doesn't freedom suggest some degree of responsibility for their own fate? Anything else and they would just be changing masters and collars...
I care not how your people would attempt to bear their weight only point that that who beyond the Amarr are willing AND capable enough to do so? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4796
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Posted - 2015.05.08 06:38:05 -
[237] - Quote
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Soren Tyrhanos wrote:Max Singularity wrote:Induced unintended consequences in chaotic systems of purpose have many outcomes. The snowball has started rolling down the hill. You did this. What she and the other proponents of this thread have done is bring to light an issue that is a result of a degradation of traditional values that negatively impacts the lives of the slaves whom our Holder's should be cultivating as potential converts to the Faith. Freeing these slaves without them having achieved the fundamental purpose of their servitude benefits no one foremost, amongst the concerned parties, the slaves themselves. The Republic can barely economically sustain their own people let alone billions of slaves, the Federation wouldn't want to, and even the Caldari I am sure would struggle under their weight. The Caldari would decline the opportunity to struggle under their weight. They're not OUR slaves, after all and doesn't freedom suggest some degree of responsibility for their own fate? Anything else and they would just be changing masters and collars... I care not how your people would attempt to bear their weight only point that that who beyond the Amarr are willing AND capable enough to do so? Does it matter? The truth is that only those with a plan to support them after release have the moral mandate to demand that release. The Federation could probably manage to find the resources, but I'm certain they wouldn't enjoy what it would do to their standard of living. Our Ushra friends claim that they would make the Empire fund that support as reparations, but they claim this whilst having no real plan for gaining the political or military capital to enforce such a resolution. They also ignore the fact that the release of slaves itself would break the Empire in the short term and they would have no ability to make reparations whilst simultaneously rebuilding their economy.
In any case, this discussion is about removing slaves as a tradeable commodity on the SCC market and not about abolition. Frankly, I find the practice needlessly demeaning and completely counter to Heiian - but it's not my practice and it isn't my place to tell you how to run your society.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
3574
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Posted - 2015.05.08 06:53:07 -
[238] - Quote
I get confused about arbitrary terms and labels.
If I find myself out in space, I'm on a ship littered with humans whose compensation is a pittance. As soon as they step aboard my ship, their life and death is completely at my whim. I can direct every action they take at my helm and ship stations. I dictate the food they eat, or if they eat at all. I can work them to death if I so choose. I can legally self destruct my vessel and kill the entire crew without incurring a scar, or facing a single fine or criminal charge.
My slaves carry me, their legally entitled ship master, through Amarr space. Explain to me again what this petition is about, then.
Call me Joe.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1485
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Posted - 2015.05.08 07:17:23 -
[239] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:Explain to me again what this petition is about, then.
To keep them away from people like you.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
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Alizebeth Amalath
Sanctus Amarria
33
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Posted - 2015.05.08 15:11:38 -
[240] - Quote
Every time I think that I should respond to something, I see that Samira has beaten me to it and said pretty much what I would have. |
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