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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.03.08 20:29:13 -
[1] - Quote
I recently bought this toon and returned to EVE after a break due to rl obligations and I was shocked to see that ogb was not only still around but that it has spread like a desease and infested most of lowsec and nullsec even. Before anyone calls me a whiner let me say this: I have much love for EVE as a game and even though i don't have much time to play it I will probably keep my accounts subbed until tranquility shuts down.I'm not a "pro" and I don't care for kb stats but i do care for good fights which way too often simply get ruined by off grid boosted undercover super ships! Wasn't this supposed to be dealt with a long time ago!? Why do you even bother balancing hulls if you're allowing a condor being turned into a garmur from off grid without any notable risk?!
The arguments for getting rid of this terrible mechanic are well known so I won't enumerate them again but seriously: CCP. get your stuff together! You guys know what a turn off ogb is for half of the pvp community, you know how it caters to a dumped down, tedious, slow and risk-averse playsyle that is literally poison to pvp as a whole! If the dogma rewrite still takes time give us something in the meantime! This bullshit mechanic has been around for way too long and not everybody is enough of an eve fanboy to endure your disregard in that respect.CCP, do something! |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
221
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Posted - 2015.03.08 20:51:14 -
[2] - Quote
I cant believe we can work a rover on mars with out being on grid!
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:02:22 -
[3] - Quote
Agondray wrote:I cant believe we can work a rover on mars with out being on grid!
FYI ongrid boost isn't going to solve the problems of people picking fights in empire, only makes it to where you have a target ongrid in low, null, and wormhole. then theres the changes to the incursion community which would be down 1 more useful ship in a site
who said anything about "picking fights in empire"? Ogb gives one half of pvpers a massive practically risk free advantage over the other half while dumpening down tactical depth in the process. It's the definition of a bad mechanic that messes with all the careful balancing and complexity that ccp has created. empire, lowsec, nullsec: doesn't matter, it's still a terrible mechanic! |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7868
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Both fleets in an engagement can use OGB.
I find it difficult to see the 'risk free advantage' here.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1824
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:13:51 -
[5] - Quote
Yes, what OP said. OGB is bad and needs to die.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
369
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:17:18 -
[6] - Quote
Interaction without seeing and feeling other involved parties is bad game design. It is not engaging game play. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
6147
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:21:20 -
[7] - Quote
Found the new niche for supers: Off grid boosting. They alone will keep that power, while every other command link capable ship with have to stick on grid.
(Rorquals will be turned into POS modules.)
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
20271
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:21:40 -
[8] - Quote
I cant believe its this thread again!
My thoughts on 'I cant believe its not butter' have changed a tad though. I just don't know if I can eat a product that doesn't believe in itself. If they really wanted to fix that, they really need to rename it 'you wont believe this isn't butter'. At least then, its on you. Right as it is, the damn tub is having a crisis, and not one person wants to do anything about it.. and its title is calling out for help. Have some self confidence you buttery spread! People buy you all the time, despite the fact that you aren't butter. Don't put thoughts in my head before I even buy you. Would you do that with any other product? I know I sure as hell wouldn't buy 'I cant believe this aint cheese!'. What the ****?!?! Im staying the hell away from that. I may even rearrange the shelves to move that stuff away from the cheeses.. just so the real cheese doesn't get some kind of complex.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
140
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:24:07 -
[9] - Quote
sometimes its easier to suggest things be fixed than you know actually fixing them. |
Kry Meariver
Kry Meariver Corporation
19
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:39:33 -
[10] - Quote
Off grid boosting needs to die. If a boosting ship is not on grid with a boosted ship, there should be no bonus. My guess is it is difficult to code the change. |
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:41:12 -
[11] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Both fleets in an engagement can use OGB. I find it difficult to see the 'risk free advantage' here. Mr Epeen
You're missing the point. Not everybody is willing or able to run a booster. Forcing people to run a second account to compete in small scale or solo pvp is a huge turn off. Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action? |
d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
76
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:I recently bought this toon and returned to EVE after a break due to rl obligations and I was shocked to see that ogb was not only still around but that it has spread like a desease and infested most of lowsec and nullsec even. Before anyone calls me a whiner let me say this: I have much love for EVE as a game and even though i don't have much time to play it I will probably keep my accounts subbed until tranquility shuts down.I'm not a "pro" and I don't care for kb stats but i do care for good fights which way too often simply get ruined by off grid boosted undercover super ships! Wasn't this supposed to be dealt with a long time ago!? Why do you even bother balancing hulls if you're allowing a condor being turned into a garmur from off grid without any notable risk?!
The arguments for getting rid of this terrible mechanic are well known so I won't enumerate them again but seriously: CCP, get your stuff together! You guys know what a turn off ogb is for half of the pvp community, you know how it caters to a dumped down, tedious, slow and risk-averse playsyle that is literally poison to pvp as a whole! If the dogma rewrite still takes time give us something in the meantime! This bullshit mechanic has been around for way too long and not everybody is enough of an eve fanboy to endure your disregard in that respect.CCP, do something!
Well apparently assigning fighters off-grid is a big NO NO, but off-grid boosting is fine... |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
244
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:50:17 -
[13] - Quote
Perhaps CCP should also get rid of blobs, hot drops, falcons, warping in alts, etc.
P.S. Almost forgot AFK cloaking.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34550
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:52:34 -
[14] - Quote
Potamus Jenkins wrote:sometimes its easier to suggest things be fixed than you know actually fixing them. Totally agree.
Sometimes it's also possible to suggest things be fixed when they really don't need to be anyway. For me, it's just the have-nots complaining about what they don't have when they could.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
14
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:54:59 -
[15] - Quote
If the null sec alliances started crying about links , it would get changed. But its only really an issue too solo pilots /small gangs. Eve is suppose to be risk=reward, i'm not sure how much risk there is sitting a links alt on station/ at a pos so your 400m faction frig can kill t1 frigs.
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Alice Saki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125725
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Posted - 2015.03.08 21:59:14 -
[16] - Quote
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1828
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:01:06 -
[17] - Quote
CCP has already said that they want to bring links on grid. But I'm not confident that this will be any time soon.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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2Sonas1Cup
28
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:01:20 -
[18] - Quote
On grid 350km away |
Alice Saki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125725
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:02:16 -
[19] - Quote
Zappity wrote:CCP has already said that they want to bring links on grid. But I'm not confident that this will be any time soon.
They did Nerf them, Which is why you'll find OnGB with Armour fleets.
Shield nano Fleets are still more likely to use OffGB
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
14
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:09:08 -
[20] - Quote
Zappity wrote:CCP has already said that they want to bring links on grid. But I'm not confident that this will be any time soon. They said that years ago , If i remember correctly it would be hard too implant and not really worth the time ( a summary off ccp)
We don't really need on grid links though , there other ways too 'balance' links. A few suggestions:
Links cant be activated within 150km of station/ gate/pos/structure( too stop sitting links at pos's) Links/rr go on any KM of any ship they help and get suspect links causes suspect after activating links you cant move for x time and cant re-activate for x time
I'm not saying all of those things should be implemented or even that they are good ideas . I thought of them in 1min . Pretty sure if CCP wanted too , they could make them more balanced |
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:11:18 -
[21] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.
Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers. |
Arla Sarain
337
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:11:34 -
[22] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Perhaps CCP should also get rid of blobs, hot drops, falcons, warping in alts, etc.
P.S. Almost forgot AFK cloaking.
Perhaps they should just get rid of OGB. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34550
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:11:53 -
[23] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action? If I can offer a counter argument to that, my experience is almost the opposite of what you are saying here.
Before I trained a links character I was reluctant to take fights outnumbered. But seeing how extensive the use of links is in lowsec, I trained a character up (pw. q1w2e3r4).
She is far from slow and static, though her Loki doesn't warp as fast as a frigate or a T1 cruiser when I roam. She is used to scout as well as provide links, so gives me eyes in 2 systems at once, providing more knowledge of what is happening around.
But mostly, having the links has allowed me to take more fights than I otherwise would because I will happily engage well outnumbered. 17:1 (17:2 including the links) is the largest fight I have taken on (I died of course, but took several down beforehand).
Links can move fast and promote anything but risk aversion. Fighting outnumbered creates good fights for everyone and has had flow on effects into other areas. When I began FCing, having taken on a lot of fights outnumbered on my own (as a player), I already had a relatively good skillset in selecting targets and identifying which to take down first. That has bought better fights to my corpmates too when we are in fleet, whether we are running links or not.
Would I really care if links were changed? Not really. I'm already training my links alt up to be on-grid at some point in the future, but links aren't a magic pill. Good piloting can still counter the benefit that someone else gains through links.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1828
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:19:40 -
[24] - Quote
Interesting comments above. Even just giving links a weapons timer would go a long way.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1055
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:20:51 -
[25] - Quote
I have scanned down and killed links strategic cruisers. Also blapped away at ones sitting at edge of pos shield or on undock in lowsec. Helped throw a squad of bombs at one pos-lurking links bc. Best of all, some poor drinker fat-finger-warped his links loki to an ice belt and got it destroyed by four bait fit procurers. There is risk to off-grid boosters. You must supply it.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12048
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:22:35 -
[26] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.
No, you mean kiters need off grid boosts to be effective.
As to the OP, off grid boosting should be eliminated. For almost everything else that can contribute a measurable mechanical benefit to a fight, said asset must be on grid to do so. You cannot off grid logi, you cannot off grid ewar, and you cannot off grid tackle.
You should not be able to off grid boost. Period.
That said, CCP has stated several times that it not unwillingness to do so which holds them back, it is inability to do so. Meaning that they can't actually figure out how to implement it without causing excessive server load.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
15
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Budda Kuha wrote:Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action? If I can offer a counter argument to that, my experience is almost the opposite of what you are saying here. Before I trained a links character I was reluctant to take fights outnumbered. But seeing how extensive the use of links is in lowsec, I trained a character up (pw. q1w2e3r4). She is far from slow and static, though her Loki doesn't warp as fast as a frigate or a T1 cruiser when I roam. She is used to scout as well as provide links, so gives me eyes in 2 systems at once, providing more knowledge of what is happening around. But mostly, having the links has allowed me to take more fights than I otherwise would because I will happily engage well outnumbered. 17:1 (17:2 including the links) is the largest fight I have taken on (I died of course, but took several down beforehand). Links can move fast and promote anything but risk aversion. Fighting outnumbered creates good fights for everyone and has had flow on effects into other areas. When I began FCing, having taken on a lot of fights outnumbered on my own (as a player), I already had a relatively good skillset in selecting targets and identifying which to take down first. That has bought better fights to my corpmates too when we are in fleet, whether we are running links or not. Would I really care if links were changed? Not really. I'm already training my links alt up to be on-grid at some point in the future, but links aren't a magic pill. Good piloting can still counter the benefit that someone else gains through links.
If it was only solo players vs larger gangs using links , i wouldn't mind. But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones). Or for example in HS , Sit a links boat in a NPC corp get a pretty safe advantage with no risk. It gives people another advantage that can't really be countered , which is why it should be changed. Logi? Focus them . Ecm? Use eccm Neuts? Cap boosters/nos Links?? |
Alice Saki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125737
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:24:22 -
[28] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:Alice Saki wrote:Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets. Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers.
Rephrase.
Small SHIELD NANO GANGS NEED OFFGB to be effective againt larger targets.
The Alliance I just left, We used to fly to Goons home system Stir the Hornets nest with our 10 to 30 man gang
and Get Swarmed by up too 900 goonies xD
Without the Skirmish links providing Off Grid Boosting we'd all die in seconds.
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34550
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:29:16 -
[29] - Quote
Lictas Alice wrote:But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones). Where is your experience from that this is it?
There's a lot more use of links than faction ships and a set of implants for someone without links can also counter the links, the difference there being that links scale across the squad/wing/fleet where implants are individual. Particularly in lowsec, there is no greater risk to a pod than to a links ship (unless Santo or a copycat is around, but that can be avoided easily too).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
20
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Posted - 2015.03.08 22:29:43 -
[30] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Budda Kuha wrote:Alice Saki wrote:Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets. Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers. Rephrase. Small SHIELD NANO GANGS NEED OFFGB to be effective againt larger targets. The Alliance I just left, We used to fly to Goons home system Stir the Hornets nest with our 10 to 30 man gang and Get Swarmed by up too 900 goonies xD Without the Skirmish links providing Off Grid Boosting we'd all die in seconds.
Ummm dont you think 10-30 ships SHOULD DIE IN SECONDS to 900 ships?? Lol
The fact that 10-30 can last more than seconds against such odds is proof it is unlabanced.
And again, if you or anyone is agruing and saying OGB is good/should stay. You r wrong. Ccp said u are wrong. They just cant figure out how to code it, they want yo change it though just cant |
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