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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
123
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Posted - 2015.03.09 08:14:57 -
[61] - Quote
Fade Azura wrote:Off grid boosting has already been dealt with .... the nerf to unprobeable t3's and command ships unable to give links within a POS.
everything anyone can do with links can be countered
if they make a hard to probe down t3 it can still be probed down and killed if they are boosting next to a station or a pos shields .. some tornado's warping in can alpha shot it or force it off
and last but not least you can always bring the same links and use same tactics as they are if you cant do either of the above
if you are unable or unwilling to take the above steps to match your enemy .. then honestly your not on the same level and don't deserve to win that fight.
but anyways this has been discussed to death many times and nothing is going to change anytime soon so stop complaining and go blow some stuff up ... its a lot more constructive then whining on the forums about things that are easily countered or matched.
So you're saying I should just man up and spend $100 on PLEX to buy a booster alt. Can I just spend $500 for a frigate sized CONCORD deathray? Is this an EA game? And nobody cares about links in gangs it's FW 1v1 action that gets broken by OGB. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
123
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Posted - 2015.03.09 08:17:20 -
[62] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Alice Saki wrote:Budda Kuha wrote:Alice Saki wrote:Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets. Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers. Rephrase. Small SHIELD NANO GANGS NEED OFFGB to be effective againt larger targets. The Alliance I just left, We used to fly to Goons home system Stir the Hornets nest with our 10 to 30 man gang and Get Swarmed by up too 900 goonies xD Without the Skirmish links providing Off Grid Boosting we'd all die in seconds. Ummm dont you think 10-30 ships SHOULD DIE IN SECONDS to 900 ships?? Lol The fact that 10-30 can last more than seconds against such odds is proof it is unlabanced. And again, if you or anyone is agruing and saying OGB is good/should stay. You r wrong. Ccp said u are wrong. They just cant figure out how to code it, they want yo change it though just cant Only if you get caught, thats the Magic of OGB ;)
You're telling me a 900 man nullsec blob can't log a virtue prober alt and kill or force you to turn off links with 2 minutes?
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Madd Adda
32
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Posted - 2015.03.09 08:23:36 -
[63] - Quote
Wouldn't nerfing OGB hinder mining foreman links too? I don't see the reasoning for getting rid of all OGB in that case. If it were only warfare links to get nerfed then i can get behind that, just don't ruin it for links that don't have any impact on pvp.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
370
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Posted - 2015.03.09 08:26:13 -
[64] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote: Wouldn't nerfing OGB hinder mining foreman links too? I don't see the reasoning for getting rid of all OGB in that case. If it were only warfare links to get nerfed then i can get behind that, just don't ruin it for links that don't have any impact on pvp. There is no need for off-grid mining links either. Interaction, where all involved players can at least see each other is good for the game. |
Madd Adda
32
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Posted - 2015.03.09 08:37:24 -
[65] - Quote
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:Madd Adda wrote: Wouldn't nerfing OGB hinder mining foreman links too? I don't see the reasoning for getting rid of all OGB in that case. If it were only warfare links to get nerfed then i can get behind that, just don't ruin it for links that don't have any impact on pvp. There is no need for off-grid mining links either. Interaction, where all involved players can at least see each other is good for the game.
how is seeing one another "interaction"? I often don't mine in the same asteroid belt as a boosting orca /barges just so I don't interfere with what they're mining. Why penalize all of us for those that are abusing the warfare links?
Carebear extraordinaire
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jurgen b
Papal Zouaves
9
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Posted - 2015.03.09 12:14:47 -
[66] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote: Wouldn't nerfing OGB hinder mining foreman links too? I don't see the reasoning for getting rid of all OGB in that case. If it were only warfare links to get nerfed then i can get behind that, just don't ruin it for links that don't have any impact on pvp.
but but.....it's magic and it belongs in a game named WoW where raids have buffs to pop more magic and wizzard stuff and it is bad for the idd for the 1V1 promoting in novice plexes idd. it's all magic eve boosts from a station from orca's is pure magic eve on grid it's magic boosts that is |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
312
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Posted - 2015.03.09 13:26:56 -
[67] - Quote
Lictas Alice wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Lictas Alice wrote:If it was only solo players vs larger gangs using links , i wouldn't mind. But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones). Or for example in HS , Sit a links boat in a NPC corp get a pretty safe advantage with no risk. It gives people another advantage that can't really be countered , which is why it should be changed. Logi? Focus them . Ecm? Use eccm Neuts? Cap boosters/nos Links?? Neutral links being on grid in highsec wouldn't affect them in any way whatsoever, they'd still not be legal targets. If you wanted to change how links are employed in highsec you'd have to mess with crimewatch. If you really want to open up that particular can of worms again that's fine by me, I mean they did such a great job last time. I know , i kinda hinted at that a few posts earlier. If they can't implement on grid links , i am pretty sure theres other things they could do. Links on kilmails would be great , all those 'solo' pilots that need links to win would be exposed and probbably stop using them No they wouldn't because none of them are claiming they are not using links. They are quite happy to even tell you what links they like to run and how they run them.
People use links because they can and so can the enemy so you should expect them to be using them to. We extensively use links because again it would be stupid not too. Just as it stupid not to fit deadspace modules if you have the isk, and to carry drugs. And even use that expensive faction hull. People are not afraid to get a leg up, and be open about it. Almost everyone i know with links things that it should be "on grid" only (but they should probably fix some grid foo stuff as well). But while it is not, there is no good reason not to use them.
CCP have said that in principal only on grid links is what they want, but the code base and programming is too difficult. However that didn't stop them from keeping mining links active inside a POS force field.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Alice Saki
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
125767
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Posted - 2015.03.09 14:29:57 -
[68] - Quote
Imma just put it down to people who can afford to run Link alts and those who can't :)
FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - All I want from Xmas is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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Janeway84
Def Squadron Pride Before Fall
147
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Posted - 2015.03.09 14:34:41 -
[69] - Quote
Maybe CCP can make people with 10-1 kb get worse effects from links while people with crap kb stats gets 200% improvement from links? |
Sir Constantin
27
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Posted - 2015.03.09 14:39:34 -
[70] - Quote
CCP don't care and most of the players have already links so you can't reason with them because they like having a green killboard.
They are saying that learning implants make you not pvp, well, for me is the off-grid boosting.
They could at least tweak the stats to give like 3-5%. I mean, you train for months for extra 3-5% or you need to buy expensive implants but hey, let's train a alt for a month or two and give 30-50% boost.
#altsonline #paytowin |
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
312
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:17:19 -
[71] - Quote
Dude we don't do hashtags anymore. Well unless your on twitter or currently 16 and think it is something new.
And if you think its pay to win, then I guess you don't like deadspace mods, of faction hulls, or people that get their **** together and have drugs on hand?
Oh my you must hate people with friends that can always out number you.
Lets be honest you just don't like it when other people kill you. No matter how much you derped.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Carmen Electra
Shiptoasters
60404
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:25:09 -
[72] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:So you're saying I should just man up and spend $100 on PLEX to buy a booster alt. If you found a booster alt for $100 worth of ISK, you should jump on that stat.
Bacon makes us stronger
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Lloyd Roses
889
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:32:17 -
[73] - Quote
Sir Constantin wrote:CCP don't care and most of the players have already links so you can't reason with them because they like having a green killboard.
They are saying that learning implants make you not pvp, well, for me is the off-grid boosting.
They could at least tweak the stats to give like 3-5%. I mean, you train for months for extra 3-5% or you need to buy expensive implants but hey, let's train a alt for a month or two and give 30-50% boost.
#altsonline #paytowin
Would you prefer if I put my boostalt into a falcon instead? Or rather want an odd curse, or should I just get a scimitar? It's called force multiplier for a reason.
Also, boosts range from 18-30% mostly. Get your numbers straight before you complain, or try sitting on both sides.
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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Lloyd Roses
889
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:34:31 -
[74] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:You're telling me a 900 man nullsec blob can't log a virtue prober alt and kill or force you to turn off links with 2 minutes?
A pimped helios for 70mil with a 20mil implant has the required scanstrength already. You don't need virtues for that since 2014.
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:44:25 -
[75] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Sir Constantin wrote:CCP don't care and most of the players have already links so you can't reason with them because they like having a green killboard.
They are saying that learning implants make you not pvp, well, for me is the off-grid boosting.
They could at least tweak the stats to give like 3-5%. I mean, you train for months for extra 3-5% or you need to buy expensive implants but hey, let's train a alt for a month or two and give 30-50% boost.
#altsonline #paytowin Would you prefer if I put my boostalt into a falcon instead? Or rather want an odd curse, or should I just get a scimitar? It's called force multiplier for a reason. Also, boosts range from 18-30% mostly. Get your numbers straight before you complain, or try sitting on both sides.
To answer your question: Most players who refrain from using an ogb would prefer that. Logis, recons and ecm can be dealt with. Ogb is inherently different since there is almost no risk involved and when in doubt there is no way to be sure if a ship is boosted or not. It's the perfect tool for risk averse pilots who want fun and a "leet kb" at the expense of others. Ultimately that drives non link users away from eve which in the long run is bad for link users aswell. It's a bad mechanic which is bad for the game. Stop defending ogb's already the issue has been settled!
The question remains: What will CCP give us before brain in a box is ready? After years of waiting people are fed up and they deserve a little more than "soon"!
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Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
17
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:59:18 -
[76] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Lictas Alice wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Lictas Alice wrote:If it was only solo players vs larger gangs using links , i wouldn't mind. But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones). Or for example in HS , Sit a links boat in a NPC corp get a pretty safe advantage with no risk. It gives people another advantage that can't really be countered , which is why it should be changed. Logi? Focus them . Ecm? Use eccm Neuts? Cap boosters/nos Links?? Neutral links being on grid in highsec wouldn't affect them in any way whatsoever, they'd still not be legal targets. If you wanted to change how links are employed in highsec you'd have to mess with crimewatch. If you really want to open up that particular can of worms again that's fine by me, I mean they did such a great job last time. I know , i kinda hinted at that a few posts earlier. If they can't implement on grid links , i am pretty sure theres other things they could do. Links on kilmails would be great , all those 'solo' pilots that need links to win would be exposed and probbably stop using them No they wouldn't because none of them are claiming they are not using links. They are quite happy to even tell you what links they like to run and how they run them. People use links because they can and so can the enemy so you should expect them to be using them to. We extensively use links because again it would be stupid not too. Just as it stupid not to fit deadspace modules if you have the isk, and to carry drugs. And even use that expensive faction hull. People are not afraid to get a leg up, and be open about it. Almost everyone i know with links things that it should be "on grid" only (but they should probably fix some grid foo stuff as well). But while it is not, there is no good reason not to use them. CCP have said that in principal only on grid links is what they want, but the code base and programming is too difficult. However that didn't stop them from keeping mining links active inside a POS force field.
I agree that just changing links too OGB isn't enough.
Depending on what system your in , it can be incredible hard too tell if someone is using links , before your committed too a fight. You can tell if someone is in a group generally by looking at there killboard , looking at there fits ect. So your kinda right , you should automatically assume people are using links , Another reason not too engage. Just what we need , more factors that make people only fight when they are sure they are going to win. |
Sir Constantin
28
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Posted - 2015.03.09 16:18:45 -
[77] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Would you prefer if I put my boostalt into a falcon instead? Or rather want an odd curse, or should I just get a scimitar? It's called force multiplier for a reason.
Also, boosts range from 18-30% mostly. Get your numbers straight before you complain, or try sitting on both sides.
Falcons and and scmis are fine, they have their place in the game. I just don't like imbalanced mechanics, like dying to a brawling frigate that can kite more than a really good kiting frigate.
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Dude we don't do hashtags anymore. Well unless your on twitter or currently 16 and think it is something new.
And if you think its pay to win, then I guess you don't like deadspace mods, of faction hulls, or people that get their **** together and have drugs on hand?
Oh my you must hate people with friends that can always out number you.
Lets be honest you just don't like it when other people kill you. No matter how much you derped.
I don't even have a twitter account, i saw people doing this and i was trying to be cool
Desdspace mods, drugs..
This reasoning is like the one where people put the 3'rd party software like evemon and eft on the same par with multiboxing software like isboxer.. |
Daerrol
Furtherance.
43
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:53:59 -
[78] - Quote
I engage ships all the time without second thought to weather they have links or do not have links. I do not own a link character (anymore) but many of my friends do, and have often done pew-dee-pew both with and without links. There are ways to test if a ship has links. Everyone is shouting about risk averse then in the next breath says "I can't get a fight because I don't knwo if the person has links or not!"
You also do not know if they are rocking a deadspace fit rifter with improved drugs and perfect skills. You also don't know if recons are going to declaok. You also don't know if their buddies are logged off on this gate.
I feel like people who whine about Links when they die would just find something new to whine about. Look at what happened to those poor carriers :-(
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Peopel who want a 0 loss 100 kill KB are going to get one. fighter assist, links, drugs, station games, gate camps whatever... Most players don't want a fair fight stop expecting it. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5016
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 18:16:00 -
[79] - Quote
To fill in some technical detail:
Right now, Links only take effect when:
A: They're turned on/off B: When someone session changes. (Session changes are big and expensive anyway. Everything gets recalculated for a character)
That's relatively easy to work with, without requiring frequent tests.
Making them grid restricted is substantially more work. Making them ranged is a lot more.
Right now, the Dogma attribute engine is being rewritten, which /may/ (it's been stated as a goal) allow for this to be done in a less expensive fashion, which makes it viable.
Once that's complete, it's a lot more viable to restrict them more than 'in the same system'
Woo! CSM 9!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:54:56 -
[80] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:I engage ships all the time without second thought to weather they have links or do not have links. I do not own a link character (anymore) but many of my friends do, and have often done pew-dee-pew both with and without links. There are ways to test if a ship has links. Everyone is shouting about risk averse then in the next breath says "I can't get a fight because I don't knwo if the person has links or not!"
You also do not know if they are rocking a deadspace fit rifter with improved drugs and perfect skills. You also don't know if recons are going to declaok. You also don't know if their buddies are logged off on this gate.
I feel like people who whine about Links when they die would just find something new to whine about. Look at what happened to those poor carriers :-(
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Peopel who want a 0 loss 100 kill KB are going to get one. fighter assist, links, drugs, station games, gate camps whatever... Most players don't want a fair fight stop expecting it.
Man, I engage linked gangs all the time. That's not the point. The point is that your viable tactical options against linked enemies are often reduced to not fighting at all or running at time. That's just dumped down pvp since actual piloting skills get diminished by the huge stat boosts links provide -especially when it comes to speed and web range.Have you ever tried to kite a linked gang in an unlinked ship? Since i really don't care about kb stats or isk too much i'll engage anyway but unlinked players who don't happen to be rich just don't have that option. They just won't engage and since fights are not always easy to get that can be very very frustrating. Hence links make solo and small gang pvp for players without links a huge pita. Let a rifter be a rifter (within certain boundaries)! Let there be more action for everyone |
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.03.09 19:05:15 -
[81] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:To fill in some technical detail:
Right now, Links only take effect when:
A: They're turned on/off B: When someone session changes. (Session changes are big and expensive anyway. Everything gets recalculated for a character)
That's relatively easy to work with, without requiring frequent tests.
Making them grid restricted is substantially more work. Making them ranged is a lot more.
Right now, the Dogma attribute engine is being rewritten, which /may/ (it's been stated as a goal) allow for this to be done in a less expensive fashion, which makes it viable.
Once that's complete, it's a lot more viable to restrict them more than 'in the same system'
I get that but don't you think that CCP should give us something until the Dogma rewrite may or may not solve this issue? As others have stated there are quite some ways to do that. Making them show up on kb's would be a good start to reduce ogb cheesyness just a little bit! Tbh I'm not quite sure if CCP understands how frustrating links are for a great many players. I mean this has been going on for years...
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1677
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 19:18:32 -
[82] - Quote
The end of Off grid boosting will make EVE PvP a bit worse.
What do you think? That EVE Players engage in fights they think the ennemi can win??
EVE Players engage when they think they will win. Off Grid Boosting allows that extra unexpected edge to defeat your opponents in a seemingly unbalanced engagement. Removing it would seriously impair solo PvP.
Besides, both sides can do Off Grid Boosting. There is literally nothing more balanced than that. A perfectly symetrical mecanic.
Go ahead and bring your booster on-grid! Now exposed to a multitude of new threats, you have to dedicate a human player to play it instead of using an alt... Except that boosters are flying bricks, there is literally nothing more boring to fly
Good job, you've just made EVE PVP worse and you've created an extremely boring role, mandatory in every serious fleet.
Really, what a brilliant idea.
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2015.03.09 19:28:48 -
[83] - Quote
Altrue wrote:The end of Off grid boosting will make eve PvP a bit worse.
What do you think? That EVE Players engage in fights they think the ennemi can win??
EVE Players engage when they think they will win. Off Grid Boosting allows that extra unexpected edge to defeat your opponents in a seemingly unbalanced engagement. Removing it would seriously impair solo PvP.
Besides, both sides can do OGB.
Yes, there are many players who don't fight for silly kb stats but for the sake of fighting. These are the type of players that make eve pvp fun for everyone simply because they deliver action for everyone! The end of ogb will make eve pvp a lot better since skill will matter more and those players who won't or CAN'T(!) use links will be a lot more willing to engage.
With ogb CCP caters to the type of player who only engages when he's sure about winning. This is a mistake!
Also: There is no such thing as solo pvp with links. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
310
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 03:22:13 -
[84] - Quote
Altrue wrote:The end of Off grid boosting will make EVE PvP a bit worse. What do you think? That EVE Players engage in fights they think the ennemi can win?? Really, what a brilliant idea.
I am pretty sure that almost every player who has attacked me thought they could win. I sometimes jump into something hopeless for the fun of it but not most of the time. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2015.03.10 04:13:14 -
[85] - Quote
my $0.02
Off grid boosting is complete and utter rabid bollocks.
Rewards are supposed to come with Risk, there's very little risk involved with a links Tengu fitted to be nigh-on impossible to scan down with probes bouncing between safe spots.
It's a ridiculous mechanic that simply increases the gap between newbies and bittervets. Losing links won't hurt the veteran players one jot seeing as everyone will lose them. The only advantage goes to those who never had access to them in the first place.
All Leadership Skills boosts or link modules should only apply when said booster is on-grid and uncloaked with their fleet.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Vazkez
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2015.03.10 04:38:55 -
[86] - Quote
Off grid boosting should be removed imo. And yeah, its highly homosexual. |
Vazkez
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 04:39:47 -
[87] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:my $0.02
Off grid boosting is complete and utter rabid bollocks.
Rewards are supposed to come with Risk, there's very little risk involved with a links Tengu fitted to be nigh-on impossible to scan down with probes bouncing between safe spots.
It's a ridiculous mechanic that simply increases the gap between newbies and bittervets. Losing links won't hurt the veteran players one jot seeing as everyone will lose them. The only advantage goes to those who never had access to them in the first place.
All Leadership Skills boosts or link modules should only apply when said booster is on-grid and uncloaked with their fleet.
WORD NIGZ |
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
90
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Posted - 2015.03.10 04:45:05 -
[88] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I cant believe its this thread again!
My thoughts on 'I cant believe its not butter' have changed a tad though. I just don't know if I can eat a product that doesn't believe in itself. If they really wanted to fix that, they really need to rename it 'you wont believe this isn't butter'. At least then, its on you. Right as it is, the damn tub is having a crisis, and not one person wants to do anything about it.. and its title is calling out for help. Have some self confidence you buttery spread! People buy you all the time, despite the fact that you aren't butter. Don't put thoughts in my head before I even buy you. Would you do that with any other product? I know I sure as hell wouldn't buy 'I cant believe this aint cheese!'. What the ****?!?! Im staying the hell away from that. I may even rearrange the shelves to move that stuff away from the cheeses.. just so the real cheese doesn't get some kind of complex.
I can't believe this ain't balanced! :D |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34630
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Posted - 2015.03.10 05:05:10 -
[89] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Rewards are supposed to come with Risk, there's very little risk involved with a links Tengu fitted to be nigh-on impossible to scan down with probes bouncing between safe spots. If they are bouncing between safe spots, there are no active links.
It's worth knowing the mechanics in order to make proper assessments.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34630
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Posted - 2015.03.10 05:08:10 -
[90] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:I get that but don't you think that CCP should give us something until the Dogma rewrite may or may not solve this issue? The only thing that needs a solution is the amount of whinging that goes on asking CCP to take responsibility for something that players are fully capable of dealing with themselves, as so many others have.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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