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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2071
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Posted - 2015.03.10 05:08:58 -
[91] - Quote
No! Nerf all the things I don't like, even if the reason I don't like them is because I don't know how they work! |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6398
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 05:21:30 -
[92] - Quote
Global tl;dr :
gudfights versus "muh stats"
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
508
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Posted - 2015.03.10 09:14:12 -
[93] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:I recently bought this toon and returned to EVE after a break due to rl obligations and I was shocked to see that ogb was not only still around but that it has spread like a desease and infested most of lowsec and nullsec even. Before anyone calls me a whiner let me say this: I have much love for EVE as a game and even though i don't have much time to play it I will probably keep my accounts subbed until tranquility shuts down.I'm not a "pro" and I don't care for kb stats but i do care for good fights which way too often simply get ruined by off grid boosted undercover super ships! Wasn't this supposed to be dealt with a long time ago!? Why do you even bother balancing hulls if you're allowing a condor being turned into a garmur from off grid without any notable risk?!
The arguments for getting rid of this terrible mechanic are well known so I won't enumerate them again but seriously: CCP, get your stuff together! You guys know what a turn off ogb is for half of the pvp community, you know how it caters to a dumped down, tedious, slow and risk-averse playsyle that is literally poison to pvp as a whole! If the dogma rewrite still takes time give us something in the meantime! This bullshit mechanic has been around for way too long and not everybody is enough of an eve fanboy to endure your disregard in that respect.CCP, do something!
It's a conflict of interest for CCP. Long story short OGB alts make them $ and they'd be foolish to remove that.
Quantify their thought process like this: on SISI they allow booster alts to sit on station and therefore be immune to dickery from other players. It's their whole policy right now in a nutshell, don't rock the boat, don't kill the OGB don't collect 200 and whatever you do don't make links modules function like bastion and give weapons timers and don't make them have a minimum activation range of greater than 50km.
Link boats in lowsec: sit at 0 on a gate, as soon as aggressed jump through gate. Link boat in nullsec, sit at pos. link boat in highsec: be neutral alt, sit literally anywhere and be immune to everything forever especially if you have a premade safe from a mission run by the main (which can be up to 15au away from a celestial IIRC ergo unscannable).
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Ddolik
Viscosity Fidelas Constans
20
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Posted - 2015.03.10 11:10:55 -
[94] - Quote
im with you guyz, no more offgrid boosting |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
122
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Posted - 2015.03.10 14:37:36 -
[95] - Quote
I love when people say it's fait because both sides can do it. They can only do it if their PC can handle it.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Mag's
the united
19126
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Posted - 2015.03.10 14:49:24 -
[96] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Both fleets in an engagement can use OGB. I find it difficult to see the 'risk free advantage' here. Mr Epeen You're missing the point. Not everybody is willing or able to run a booster. Forcing people to run a second account to compete in small scale or solo pvp is a huge turn off. Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action? So here's what happens. CCP changes it to on grid and you still fail, because not everyone is willing to use the tools available. Apparently.
So even is CCP change it, you and others like you will still whine.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
523
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 15:25:15 -
[97] - Quote
This is not an issue when both sides can take advantage of the same mechanic. I do not understand the logic not not allowing it other than you are pissed someone was doing i and you were not.
Edit - I will agree they should not be allowed to do so in a POS shield or somewhere they are not exposed to risk. Maybe even increase the sig radius of ships using it to allows for others to scan them down.
Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite
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Black Drake
17
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Posted - 2015.03.10 15:55:51 -
[98] - Quote
But wouldn't people just fly their command ships hundreds of km's away from the fight then warp away if someone comes close? |
No Class
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.03.10 16:22:20 -
[99] - Quote
I trained an alt in the boost skills. Never use them now. What i find more useful is the leadership skills. Guess what? those are off grid boosters also. Are you willing to sacrifice a leadership skill nerf as well as warfare Links? |
Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:37:29 -
[100] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Budda Kuha wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Both fleets in an engagement can use OGB. I find it difficult to see the 'risk free advantage' here. Mr Epeen You're missing the point. Not everybody is willing or able to run a booster. Forcing people to run a second account to compete in small scale or solo pvp is a huge turn off. Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action? So here's what happens. CCP changes it to on grid and you still fail, because not everyone is willing to use the tools available. Apparently. So even is CCP change it, you and others like you will still whine.
As i said I don't consider myself a pro at all but in my experience the real pros aka the best solo pilots out there dislike links. A lot. Why do you think this is? I'll answer it for you: Because they understand that ogb tendentially turns EVE pvp from a game of skill to a game of alts.
This is also the reason why many pvpers get so touchy when it comes to a potential nerf of their beloved link alts. They know that their feeling of leetnes depends on them. In other words: Since the huge benefits of ogb's come with no disadvantage or notable risk whatsoever and since they don't turn up on kb's they are basically pay to win ego boosters. At the expense of others. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6602
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:50:31 -
[101] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:This is not an issue when both sides can take advantage of the same mechanic. I do not understand the logic not not allowing it other than you are pissed someone was doing i and you were not.
Edit - I will agree they should not be allowed to do so in a POS shield or somewhere they are not exposed to risk. Maybe even increase the sig radius of ships using it to allows for others to scan them down. Well you can only give mining boosts from inside a pos shield now so heh
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 17:58:12 -
[102] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:This is not an issue when both sides can take advantage of the same mechanic. I do not understand the logic not not allowing it other than you are pissed someone was doing i and you were not.
Edit - I will agree they should not be allowed to do so in a POS shield or somewhere they are not exposed to risk. Maybe even increase the sig radius of ships using it to allows for others to scan them down.
C'mon now, it's the inherent logic of links that one side has them and the other doesn't. In your logic solo pvpers would be forced to run at least two accounts not to have an advantage but to simply play the game on the same level as others. Now think about accessability and about what is hurting EVE's appeal to newer players the most. When you finished ask yourself if ogb is a good mechanic. |
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.03.10 18:10:56 -
[103] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Budda Kuha wrote:Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action? If I can offer a counter argument to that, my experience is almost the opposite of what you are saying here. Before I trained a links character I was reluctant to take fights outnumbered. But seeing how extensive the use of links is in lowsec, I trained a character up (pw. q1w2e3r4). She is far from slow and static, though her Loki doesn't warp as fast as a frigate or a T1 cruiser when I roam. She is used to scout as well as provide links, so gives me eyes in 2 systems at once, providing more knowledge of what is happening around. But mostly, having the links has allowed me to take more fights than I otherwise would because I will happily engage well outnumbered. 17:1 (17:2 including the links) is the largest fight I have taken on (I died of course, but took several down beforehand). Links can move fast and promote anything but risk aversion. Fighting outnumbered creates good fights for everyone and has had flow on effects into other areas. When I began FCing, having taken on a lot of fights outnumbered on my own (as a player), I already had a relatively good skillset in selecting targets and identifying which to take down first. That has bought better fights to my corpmates too when we are in fleet, whether we are running links or not. Would I really care if links were changed? Not really. I'm already training my links alt up to be on-grid at some point in the future, but links aren't a magic pill. Good piloting can still counter the benefit that someone else gains through links.
Truth this Capsuleer speaks, agree I must. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
273
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Posted - 2015.03.10 21:01:22 -
[104] - Quote
I posted in another thread a few days ago about scanning boosters down, which I've seen a few people mention here. I've made a successful niche for myself scanning down the boosting ships and I'd like to share my experience.
Once you've got the virtue implants, which are the biggest hurdle to scanning, the rest is relatively straightforward. I've seen people fit them to covops cruisers, but I find that t3 ships are much more suitable as they can be interdiction nullified, allowing you to relatively safely use them in nullsec. I like the tengu because it has the most available midslots for scanning upgrades, which make the process much easier.
Identifying a t3 booster is easy, as they're typically the lowest strength signature ID present in a system. You can get a few false positives with ships like EAFs, but it isn't terribly common. Few boosters that I've caught made an attempt to warp away while I was scanning them, even if they were holed up in a legacy deep safe. I can't say for sure why, but I think that most players using boosters are multiboxing and suffer from an attention deficit while doing so.
Every t3 booster is easily destroyed by the appropriate stealth bomber, particularly so when they do not fit a prop module, which, in my experience, most do not. I've experimented with using a sabre in nullsec, but overall, I like using torpedo bombers more for the purpose.
Often, players respond to your aggression, but it's usually too late by the time you've scrammed the booster. I start out with my torpedo launchers and target painter overheated; the extra DPS and application are a good assurance that you'll be able to pop the booster before support arrives and burning out my modules is rarely an issue. I'm usually willing to sacrifice a bomber for a booster kill, so I'll hang on until the last second to get that last shot in if need be.
If they're sitting on a POS, I've found that using a cheap, fast locking alpha thrasher and a few friends works quite well, and if you dont have friends available, it's worth a try in a cheap destroyer. With good warpins I've been able to kill boosters with as few as two DPS ships and a well placed bump.
Also, I've often seen people complain about an opponent using links, only to find that they're not using them at all. Links are commonplace now, but they're certainly not as ubiquitous as people claim. |
Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 22:28:10 -
[105] - Quote
Bullet Therapist wrote:I posted in another thread a few days ago about scanning boosters down, which I've seen a few people mention here. I've made a successful niche for myself scanning down the boosting ships and I'd like to share my experience.
Once you've got the virtue implants, which are the biggest hurdle to scanning, the rest is relatively straightforward. I've seen people fit them to covops cruisers, but I find that t3 ships are much more suitable as they can be interdiction nullified, allowing you to relatively safely use them in nullsec. I like the tengu because it has the most available midslots for scanning upgrades, which make the process much easier.
Identifying a t3 booster is easy, as they're typically the lowest strength signature ID present in a system. You can get a few false positives with ships like EAFs, but it isn't terribly common. Few boosters that I've caught made an attempt to warp away while I was scanning them, even if they were holed up in a legacy deep safe. I can't say for sure why, but I think that most players using boosters are multiboxing and suffer from an attention deficit while doing so.
Every t3 booster is easily destroyed by the appropriate stealth bomber, particularly so when they do not fit a prop module, which, in my experience, most do not. I've experimented with using a sabre in nullsec, but overall, I like using torpedo bombers more for the purpose.
Often, players respond to your aggression, but it's usually too late by the time you've scrammed the booster. I start out with my torpedo launchers and target painter overheated; the extra DPS and application are a good assurance that you'll be able to pop the booster before support arrives and burning out my modules is rarely an issue. I'm usually willing to sacrifice a bomber for a booster kill, so I'll hang on until the last second to get that last shot in if need be.
If they're sitting on a POS, I've found that using a cheap, fast locking alpha thrasher and a few friends works quite well, and if you dont have friends available, it's worth a try in a cheap destroyer. With good warpins I've been able to kill boosters with as few as two DPS ships and a well placed bump.
Also, I've often seen people complain about an opponent using links, only to find that they're not using them at all. Links are commonplace now, but they're certainly not as ubiquitous as people claim.
Link km's of the boosters you destroyed, would you? Any competent pilot shouldn't lose a boosting t3. Ever. At the end of the day these things are ridiculously safe. Apart from that: The fact that you might be able to kill uncautious booster pilots if you dedicate yourself to that task (and bring some friends) doesn't male ogb any less terrible in the vast majority of pvp situations. Personally i would find killing defenseless boosters utterly boring tbh. I guess that's just the kind of pvp links promote.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4669
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 22:41:52 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:When we have any timelines to report we'll report them, in the meantime all I can say is that it will happen sometime between now and the end of time. Very likely closer to now than to the end of time, but those things are hard to be certain about.
CCP Fozzie wrote:It's a performance optimization problem. We could turn on range-based boosting in Odyssey [released on Tuesday, June 4th, 2013] but it would melt all the servers.
And this isn't being delayed by Odyssey, the team working on the underlying code that will make ongrid boosting possible (along with many other things) isn't releasing anything in Odyssey. It's just that big of a project.
So like I said before, at some point CCP Veritas will make all my ganglink-related dreams come true but I honestly do not know when that point will be. When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34676
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 22:47:37 -
[107] - Quote
I think we've reached the level where these need to be handed out in this thread now.
It'll happen when it happens.
Even then, the claims of unfairness will continue and if it goes to a straight on grid thing, grid foo will make for some interesting changes in play. Will be fun.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 23:11:42 -
[108] - Quote
Which claims of unfairness? That was never the point. The point was that ogb makes eve a worse game. It does so for reasons stated many times. The fact that the proponents of ogb always try to distort the very specific and profound criticism of ogb to general whining about unfairness says something about the proponents of ogb. imo
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34676
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Posted - 2015.03.10 23:16:46 -
[109] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:Which claims of unfairness? That was never the point. The point was that ogb makes eve a worse game. It does so for reasons stated many times. The fact that the proponents of ogb always try to distort the very specific and profound criticism of ogb to general whining about unfairness says something about the proponents of ogb. imo
Here, have another.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2015.03.10 23:35:31 -
[110] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Budda Kuha wrote:Which claims of unfairness? That was never the point. The point was that ogb makes eve a worse game. It does so for reasons stated many times. The fact that the proponents of ogb always try to distort the very specific and profound criticism of ogb to general whining about unfairness says something about the proponents of ogb. imo
Here, have another.
Man, I just hope i'll never need these because pretty much the only thing about this game which could potentially make me sad would be seeing it go to maintenance mode cause CCP didn't tackle major turn offs like ogb in time. Anyway, lets hope for the best |
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Lugia3
The Southern Gentleman's Social Club Psychotic Tendencies.
1492
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 05:56:25 -
[111] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Both fleets in an engagement can use OGB. I find it difficult to see the 'risk free advantage' here. Mr Epeen
Barrier of entry to be competitive.
"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov!
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.03.11 07:40:14 -
[112] - Quote
Budda Kuha wrote:I recently bought this toon and returned to EVE after a break due to rl obligations and I was shocked to see that ogb was not only still around but that it has spread like a desease and infested most of lowsec and nullsec even. Before anyone calls me a whiner let me say this: I have much love for EVE as a game and even though i don't have much time to play it I will probably keep my accounts subbed until tranquility shuts down.I'm not a "pro" and I don't care for kb stats but i do care for good fights which way too often simply get ruined by off grid boosted undercover super ships! Wasn't this supposed to be dealt with a long time ago!? Why do you even bother balancing hulls if you're allowing a condor being turned into a garmur from off grid without any notable risk?!
The arguments for getting rid of this terrible mechanic are well known so I won't enumerate them again but seriously: CCP, get your stuff together! You guys know what a turn off ogb is for half of the pvp community, you know how it caters to a dumped down, tedious, slow and risk-averse playsyle that is literally poison to pvp as a whole! If the dogma rewrite still takes time give us something in the meantime! This bullshit mechanic has been around for way too long and not everybody is enough of an eve fanboy to endure your disregard in that respect.CCP, do something!
Haha, you remind me of myself a year ago when I couldn't stand off-grid boosters and thought that it was such an unfair advantage to players who didn't have one that I gave up on solo pvping. And now that I've finally trained up for one I think they are fantastic so I disagree with your whining to CCP about OGB now of all times. Do yourself a favor and either go buy an OGB toon on Char Bazaar or quit been lazy and trained up for one like everyone else has down until now.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
130
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 09:01:29 -
[113] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Dude we don't do hashtags anymore. Well unless your on twitter or currently 16 and think it is something new.
And if you think its pay to win, then I guess you don't like deadspace mods, of faction hulls, or people that get their **** together and have drugs on hand?
Oh my you must hate people with friends that can always out number you.
Lets be honest you just don't like it when other people kill you. No matter how much you derped.
All of those things have to be risked on grid.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
130
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 09:06:39 -
[114] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:You're telling me a 900 man nullsec blob can't log a virtue prober alt and kill or force you to turn off links with 2 minutes?
A pimped helios for 70mil with a 20mil implant has the required scanstrength already. You don't need virtues for that since 2014.
My point is even stronger then. The "b-but small gangs!" argument vis-a-vis links assumes that the larger force won't use a portion of their numbers (1 ship) to neutralize offgrid links. It's solo and very small gang fights with close to even numbers where there's simply nothing you can do but blueball link users.
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Lancastor Dex
BLUE Regiment.
38
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Posted - 2015.03.11 09:22:31 -
[115] - Quote
There is no harm in OGBs, All the parties in the engagement have an option to bring some in. If one of the parties is not willing/too lazy not to bring one on their own it's not a faulty game mechanic, they are just obviously Njoying pissing against the wind. My advice is - fix the retards and whiners, not properly working game mechanic. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
451
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 09:46:36 -
[116] - Quote
If you remove OGB those same players will just bring that alt on grid in an ECM or Logi boat. Don't expect OGB removal to magically create honor.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Mr Duffo
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
76
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Posted - 2015.03.11 10:01:55 -
[117] - Quote
Bring boosters on grid and everyone is happy. This would add more depth to fleet tactics imo |
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
439
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 10:17:36 -
[118] - Quote
Yes CCP get rid of OFF grid Boost Or disable the auto-repeat on links modules so you have to be active on the Boost to give boost
or some code like the more far your are from the fleet = Less boost etc etc so many options here
But please do something ccp before next release !!
CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails
.... Open that damn door !!
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34684
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 11:11:52 -
[119] - Quote
Mr Duffo wrote:Bring boosters on grid and everyone is happy. This would add more depth to fleet tactics imo On grid won't be the solution to this non-problem.
It will need to be range limited.
Grid foo will allow links ships to be on grid but well out of reach of the opposing ships/fleet. Not for every engagement obviously, but for anything important or any engagement where there is time to setup (and people will still complain).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Budda Kuha
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 11:27:18 -
[120] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Budda Kuha wrote:I recently bought this toon and returned to EVE after a break due to rl obligations and I was shocked to see that ogb was not only still around but that it has spread like a desease and infested most of lowsec and nullsec even. Before anyone calls me a whiner let me say this: I have much love for EVE as a game and even though i don't have much time to play it I will probably keep my accounts subbed until tranquility shuts down.I'm not a "pro" and I don't care for kb stats but i do care for good fights which way too often simply get ruined by off grid boosted undercover super ships! Wasn't this supposed to be dealt with a long time ago!? Why do you even bother balancing hulls if you're allowing a condor being turned into a garmur from off grid without any notable risk?!
The arguments for getting rid of this terrible mechanic are well known so I won't enumerate them again but seriously: CCP, get your stuff together! You guys know what a turn off ogb is for half of the pvp community, you know how it caters to a dumped down, tedious, slow and risk-averse playsyle that is literally poison to pvp as a whole! If the dogma rewrite still takes time give us something in the meantime! This bullshit mechanic has been around for way too long and not everybody is enough of an eve fanboy to endure your disregard in that respect.CCP, do something! Haha, you remind me of myself a year ago when I couldn't stand off-grid boosters and thought that it was such an unfair advantage to players who didn't have one that I gave up on solo pvping. And now that I've finally trained up for one I think they are fantastic so I disagree with your whining to CCP about OGB now of all times. Do yourself a favor and either go buy an OGB toon on Char Bazaar or quit been lazy and trained up for one like everyone else has down until now.
What feels fantastic is that you are able to enjoy solo and small gang pvp without a huge bult in disadvantage. Wouldn't it be great if everybody could jump into pvp and enjoy pvp the same way as you do now?
If everbody had a booster -as you and others suggest it should be- it might feel a little less fantastic too since your advantage at the expense of non link users will be completely diminished. The only difference to pvp without a booster will be the annoying side effects of carrying around a t3. When flying a "solo" frig everybody will just be forced to stare on a second monitor and roams will be reduced to cruiser warp speed. You and others have to understand that using links is a zero sum game: you only gain something at the expense of others and when everybody uses them all what remains is sillyness
It's short term goals vs long terms goals really. Shortly it may feel great to have a (ego) booster but in the long run it hurts the game itself. EVE might win some alt accounts but it loses real active players about this and most importantly: A LOT LESS NEW PLAYERS WILL START PLAYING EVE WHEN THEY HEAR ABOUT LINKS! Sorry for the caps but you guys need to get that already. It's bad for the game!
At least I have to admit that I did buy a booster alt at some point just to try it and i hated it. Kiting became ridiculously easy and when I killed a guy who is generally a better than me and flew pefectly timed slingshots against me but still coudln't catch me I turned off in disgust and put my booster alt on the char bazaar the same evening. |
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