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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.15 00:12:12 -
[1] - Quote
So, when you try to use Amarr BSGÇÖs for Pve, everybody will tell you that they are bad (tracking, cap issue, etc.). That is not true. Paladin, Nightmare, Bhaalgorn and all ships except T1 BS's will told you a very successful story in Pve. The real problem is that all T1 Amarr BS's are not design as laser platform. Yes, they have bonuses for lasers, but they not design to support ALL their laser turrets. There is no T1 Amarr BS that can fit T2 tachyons on max skill without implants, reactor unit, 1 or 2 ancillary routers (or all of them). Also, there is problem with mega beams. On some Amarr BS's you cannot fit both mega beam and tank. Now, check killboards, same problem. Where the hell are tachyons? And where is Abaddon with all 8 T2 mega beams? (and without RCU, implant, LACR) Interesting point, that you can always find BS's from other faction that can fit all T2 guns+tank() and can support all turrets without RCU, LACR and implant. Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom, etc. But not Amarr BS's... Some suggestions: 1)Abaddon: remove 1 turret and increase his bonus to +7,5-10% damage 2)All Amarr BS's will get +5% increase power grid or mega beam/tachyon get -5% power grids.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
875
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Posted - 2015.03.15 00:29:04 -
[2] - Quote
Could the balance be that you aren't meant to fit the larger variants w/o sacrifice on the t1 hulls maybe?
it's the same thing with arties and rails
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.15 00:35:33 -
[3] - Quote
Both Rokh and Hyperion can fit T2 425 railguns AND tank without RCU, LACR and implant. same with Maelstrom (1400mm T2 and tank) + implant |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7672
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Posted - 2015.03.15 00:36:34 -
[4] - Quote
Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems. Some examples: - the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod. - the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility. - the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.
Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.
The SP System
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Lugh Crow-Slave
876
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Posted - 2015.03.15 00:40:42 -
[5] - Quote
this hole Race X can't do the same thing as Race Y thing is getting old
if all races were exactly the same things would be a bit boring
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.15 00:44:59 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems. Some examples: - the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod. - the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility. - the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.
Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.
yes, but your always can find ship that CAN fit both turrets AND tank in any other faction except Amarr. There is NO amarr BS that can only fit tachyon like for example Maelsrtom.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
876
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Posted - 2015.03.15 00:57:51 -
[7] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems. Some examples: - the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod. - the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility. - the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.
Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage. yes, but your always can find ship that CAN fit both turrets AND tank in any other faction except Amarr. There is NO amarr BS that can only fit tachyon like for example Maelsrtom.
the Armageddon can with just one pg rig
and again not all races need to be the same the others also don't use a weapon system that can swap charges instantly should they all be given this?
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
50
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Posted - 2015.03.15 01:43:56 -
[8] - Quote
I suppose a 7x 425mm fit megathron is the only apples to apples comparison with a tachyon fit abaddon or apoc. All other pondering aside, a 2% reduction in tachyon beam PG probably would have negligible effect on any meta, especially the current one. Since the stakes aren't high, I wouldn't blink at any change. Anything that is typically shield fit cannot really compare, as all fitting modules are lowslot or rig based.
If there is anywhere to direct inquiry in light of the large spare pg buffer of the mega, it would be close to plates, but just beyond them to trimarks or field extender rigs, which are percentage effect mods that don't have stacking penalties. Add the latter, and we'll see people going back to a more diverse mixture of buffer and resists that would nudge reliance more to cpu than pg for tanking.
In general, in fleet roles, many battleships aren't meant to fit much of any non-role gear. Their extra slots can let them spread themselves over many roles, or concentrate themselves more fully on fewer roles. If they are a squad flagship, then the more nimble tending craft provide the tackling, target painting or remote buffing that allows the heavy platform to provide a critical fleet damage assist role.
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.15 01:45:44 -
[9] - Quote
the Armageddon can with just one pg rig - exactly!! thank you even it a drone boat! Abaddon a very good hybrid platform, but bad with lasers
and again not all races need to be the same the others also don't use a weapon system that can swap charges instantly should they all be given this? - agree, but what you suggest? to remove all tachyons from game? or all T1 amarr BS? they are BAD with their own racial weapon!!! |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
81
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Posted - 2015.03.15 02:22:17 -
[10] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:So, when you try to use Amarr BSGÇÖs for Pve, everybody will tell you that they are bad (tracking, cap issue, etc.). That is not true. Paladin, Nightmare, Bhaalgorn and all ships except T1 BS's will told you a very successful story in Pve. The real problem is that all T1 Amarr BS's are not design as laser platform. Yes, they have bonuses for lasers, but they not design to support ALL their laser turrets. There is no T1 Amarr BS that can fit T2 tachyons on max skill without implants, reactor unit, 1 or 2 ancillary routers (or all of them). Also, there is problem with mega beams. On some Amarr BS's you cannot fit both mega beam and tank. Now, check killboards, same problem. Where the hell are tachyons? And where is Abaddon with all 8 T2 mega beams? (and without RCU, implant, LACR) Interesting point, that you can always find BS's from other faction that can fit all T2 guns+tank( ) and can support all turrets without RCU, LACR and implant. Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom, etc. But not Amarr BS's... Some suggestions: 1)Abaddon: remove 1 turret and increase his bonus to +7,5-10% damage 2)All Amarr BS's will get +5% increase power grid or mega beam/tachyon get -5% power grids.
You have started from pve but finished with KB's.
Tachyons are common choice for structure bashing so you don't need tank while you fit them. And as u mentioned those faction ships don't have any issues to 4 Tachyons and tank.
* you could easily fit full rack of Mega Beams both Apoc & Baddon without extra PG support + tank (maxed skilled pilot with related skills required for Lazorz and Armor Tank) * you can't fit full rack of 1400's on Mael without extra PG support (maxed skilled pilot with related skills required for Arty)
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7673
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Posted - 2015.03.15 02:23:28 -
[11] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems. Some examples: - the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod. - the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility. - the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility.
Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage. yes, but your always can find ship that CAN fit both turrets AND tank in any other faction except Amarr. There is NO amarr BS that can only fit tachyon like for example Maelsrtom. The Dominix can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have ~6 PG left. The Dominix Navy Issue can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have 26 PG left.
The Tempest can't. Fit with 6x 1400mm artillery it will have 700 PG left (barely enough for a 100MN afterburner)
The Typhoon Fleet issue can't. Fit 6x 1400mm artillery and it will have no PG left (in fact, it will be OVER by 3000 PG).
Also consider that Tachyons are somewhat considered "oversized" guns akin to the 1400mm artillery. They both offer superb damage and range... while the 425mm railgun simply has range and semi-mediocre damage. The tradeoff is that they are goddamn hard to fit... and even harder to make a functional fit with them.
The SP System
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Kiryen O'Bannon
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
223
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Posted - 2015.03.15 02:57:36 -
[12] - Quote
Baltec Megathrons fit tech II 425mm and full tank with nary a fitting mod or rig to be found. |
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.15 03:20:35 -
[13] - Quote
[/quote] The Dominix can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have ~6 PG left. The Dominix Navy Issue can't. Fit with 6x 425mm railguns it will have 26 PG left.
The Tempest can't. Fit with 6x 1400mm artillery it will have 700 PG left (barely enough for a 100MN afterburner)
The Typhoon Fleet issue can't. Fit 6x 1400mm artillery and it will have no PG left (in fact, it will be OVER by 3000 PG).
Also consider that Tachyons are somewhat considered "oversized" guns akin to the 1400mm artillery. They both offer superb damage and range... while the 425mm railgun simply has range and semi-mediocre damage. The tradeoff is that they are goddamn hard to fit... and even harder to make a functional fit with them.[/quote]
on your skill - may be. on max skill navy Domi CAN fit 425 railguns and your will get more than 1200+ pg. Fleet Tempest CAN fit 1400 on max skilland your will a lot pg. don't fogget, tachyons have one BIG disadventage - they finish your cap very fast. all Gallente/ Matar ships CAN fit 350 railgun and 1200 artillery - some Amarr BS CANNOT fit mega beam |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing
1674
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Posted - 2015.03.15 03:48:27 -
[14] - Quote
+1
I've always thought it's strange that all other faction BS can fit their respective largest size guns, and have plenty of grid left for other mods, while Amar BS will be in the red with a full set of its largest guns alone, before even fitting anything else.
On top of that, Oracle can fit 8 Tachs easily, and have some grid left over. Amar BS is in a strange place...
Btw, it's all assuming max fitting skills. Noobs with no fitting skills shouldn't be in this conversation. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
81
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Posted - 2015.03.15 04:48:13 -
[15] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:+1 I've always thought it's strange that all other faction BS can fit their respective largest size guns, and have plenty of grid left for other mods, while Amar BS will be in the red with a full set of its largest guns alone, before even fitting anything else. On top of that, Oracle can fit 8 Tachs easily, and have some grid left over. Amar BS is in a strange place... Btw, it's all assuming max fitting skills. Noobs with no fitting skills shouldn't be in this conversation.
That's why you have meta 4 turrets. |
Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
43
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Posted - 2015.03.15 05:42:37 -
[16] - Quote
you are correct, matter in fact I believe lasers have the highest tracking of any of the sniper turrets, especially on an Apoc which has both a projection and application hull buff.
Uriam Khanid wrote:Both Rokh and Hyperion can fit T2 425 railguns AND tank without RCU, LACR and implant. same with Maelstrom (1400mm T2 and tank) + implant
Im not sure what mael you're flying but I need at least 2 ACRs for T2 1400s and a thin tank, my fitting skills are maxed except advanced weapon upgrades which is at 4
anyway I agree fitting reqs for both beams and howitzers of all sizes are absurd, especially considering all the the other drawbacks the weapon systems come with.
I dont have much ammarian SP but I hear fitting beams is just as ludicrous as fitting arty.
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
43
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Posted - 2015.03.15 05:51:09 -
[17] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage.
you already sacrifice tracking, and raw DPS...(except for rails) for mounting snipers.
Quote:this hole Race X can't do the same thing as Race Y thing is getting old
every race should be able to fit their faction specific turrets. example stabber with 3 ******* ACRs you can't have 4x 720 scots. and a prop mod. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
683
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Posted - 2015.03.15 07:03:30 -
[18] - Quote
that's what we need; all ships need to be identical and just have different graphics and sound attached to them..... not.
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
587
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Posted - 2015.03.15 07:07:40 -
[19] - Quote
Considering how ridiculously powerful Tachs are, I don't have a problem with the current setup. Amarr BS are very well balanced imo.
Tachs are able to fire in optimal while other guns are in falloff, with similar paper DPS numbers. That means the applied DPS of tachs is higher then other turret types. This SHOULD have a tradeoff. It turns out to be using meta 4 instead of t2, and/or fitting a reduced tank are those tradeoffs.
The Abbadon and it's cap issues are unrelated - that ship has cap issues, period, and needs it's base cap adjusted.
Overhaul Dscan!
Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1289
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Posted - 2015.03.15 07:25:23 -
[20] - Quote
Just as a sidenote: Dominix is not a turret ship and neither is the Armageddon. Using these 2 ships as examples to prove your points is a bit moot. Whoever wants to fit turrets, large turrets in particular, to these ships does not know what these ships are and should better remain quiet.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Lugh Crow-Slave
878
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Posted - 2015.03.15 07:31:27 -
[21] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:the Armageddon can with just one pg rig - exactly!! thank you even it a drone boat! Abaddon a very good hybrid platform, but bad with lasers and again not all races need to be the same the others also don't use a weapon system that can swap charges instantly should they all be given this? - agree, but what you suggest? to remove all tachyons from game? or all T1 amarr BS? they are BAD with their own racial weapon!!! some even with mega beams
no just that if you want to fit them you are going to need to make cut backs in tank
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
43
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Posted - 2015.03.15 08:28:08 -
[22] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Considering how ridiculously powerful Tachs are, I don't have a problem with the current setup. Amarr BS are very well balanced imo.
Tachs are able to fire in optimal while other guns are in falloff, with similar paper DPS numbers. That means the applied DPS of tachs is higher then other turret types. This SHOULD have a tradeoff. It turns out to be using meta 4 instead of t2, and/or fitting a reduced tank are those tradeoffs.
The Abbadon and it's cap issues are unrelated - that ship has cap issues, period, and needs it's base cap adjusted.
by other turrets you mean howitzers and howitzers alone which have a very long falloff compared to rails and beams, and sniper weapons system already come with trade offs, namely tracking and raw DPS. I see nothing wrong with giving them higher fitting reqs than close range turrets, however in many cases some ships simply cannot fit a rack of long range guns without fitting mods to boot, and then you have very little fitting left for anything else.
honestly I'd rather deal with cap issues than, humm can't even fit the blasted thing. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2325
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Posted - 2015.03.15 13:49:44 -
[23] - Quote
aside from some terrible and inaccurate arguments made for this idea, they could bring back the grid needs of artie and beams a bit.
Cut backs in tank is an understatement in my opinion. Its pulse, or POS bash atm.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
591
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Posted - 2015.03.15 14:24:33 -
[24] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:aside from some terrible and inaccurate arguments made for this idea, they could bring back the grid needs of artie and beams a bit.
Cut backs in tank is an understatement in my opinion. Its pulse, or POS bash atm.
Yeah!
I may not agree with OP's notion but I do agree with you. When I trained Amarr battleship not too long ago, I was trying to make a beam-kiter Apoc but even mega-beams are so difficult to fit that I had to ditch the idea and made a mjd-jump sniper instead.
Don't get me wrong, I am okay with making tradeoffs when fitting a ship and fine with using one fitting mod but to ditch the entire weapon system to make the ship work is a little much.
And the last thing you want on a kiting boat is a plate
Sometime I wonder why we even have the distiction between 'mobile' attack and 'tankier' combat battleships?
signature
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
2
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Posted - 2015.03.15 22:21:15 -
[25] - Quote
please read first post, i have some changes. and thanks to community |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
275
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Posted - 2015.03.15 23:31:27 -
[26] - Quote
The real damning problem is that Amarr BS aren't just ****** on PG when trying to fit Tachyons, they're also ****** on CPU. Minmatar BS just get ****** on PG. Fitting 8x Tachyon IIs on an Apoc with two plates and a MWD requires two PG mods AND a CPU mod or faction hardeners or it doesn't fit.
This is incidentally why the Apoc Navy Issue is so ridiculously good, it has extra CPU and PG so you can fit Tachyons and a full tank without needing a CPU mod, and the extra PG means you can fit Tachyon IIs on one PG mod or fit meta 4 Tachyons with no fitting mods whatsoever. The Navy Apoc has effectively +3 fitting slots over its T1 counterpart. The Megathron Navy Issue, for comparison, has......50m3 extra drone bandwidth. Sure it gets more fitting as well, but it's pretty much impossible to run a Megathron out of powergrid so that's not really a bonus.
The Megathron is just ludicrously overpowered in general, it's basically a navy BS with its overly generous fitting and slot layout. The only reason we're not seeing this now is because Tengus and Gallente T2 are FOTM which means kin/therm weapons are ****. |
Lienzo
Amanuensis
50
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Posted - 2015.03.16 01:57:28 -
[27] - Quote
It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
82
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Posted - 2015.03.16 02:03:08 -
[28] - Quote
Lienzo wrote:It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions.
Looks like gallente technologies are more advanced. Amarr is very conservative doctrine at everything would it be religion or shipcrafting.
Lazorz are great with their beams and light show so it's basicaly a trade off for fitingt requirement. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
592
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Posted - 2015.03.16 03:51:15 -
[29] - Quote
Lienzo wrote:It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions.
Ha! Tell that to the Navy Dominix..
But just to clarify, we are talking about long range guns not short range ones
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Leyete Wulf
Rolling Static Gone Critical
93
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Posted - 2015.03.16 13:00:29 -
[30] - Quote
All I can say about this is comparing tachyons to 1400s would be fine if 1400s weren't capless. I always feel a little dissapointed when I see the cap use reduction bonus on a laser boat. Cruiser A gets tracking damage and tank bonuses, Cruiser B gets damage cap use and tank. Why do I have to have a ship bonus just to be able to fire my guns for more than a minute at a time? The Abaddon should be the Amarr answer to the Rokh but even at full skills the Abaddon is going to cap itself out pretty much regardless of which BS guns it fits and passive tanked. Whereas the rokh, the mael, and the mega don't become cap sensitive until they start running reps or MWDing all over creation. Balance means having meaningful choices. Not being stuck with something inferior just because that's the racial skill you have trained. (cough Revelation cough) |
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