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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:11:00 -
[61]
Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 19:11:26
Originally by: Xasz ...lol.
Let's take 10 seconds and look at the OP. This thread has turned into 1 giant flame war (as most missile/raven/caldari threads do). Perhaps we could stay on topic, and take the flame war elsewhere?
Well he got answered... best raven dps with t2 mods is 688+drones. You won't tank much with that setup, because it has 4 bcus, but it's possible to fit very good setup with 3 bcus and you lose like 30dps (651dps+drones+2 hi slots to play with cruiser size guns/med neuts... )
Now let's continue throwing molotov coctails.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:15:00 -
[62]
Originally by: LUKEC
Have you ever looked at interceptor's lock range or sensor strength?
Yes.
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JoCool
Caldari Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:16:00 -
[63]
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like.
For painters+rages, it's 50% more.
I have maximised everything and t2 stuff. thats not possible, not even with 5 bcu IIs.
I'd say 99,9% of your alliance would know better than you. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:18:00 -
[64]
Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 19:19:12
Originally by: JoCool
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp Only t2 stuff, that's t1/javelin torps. Add drones, number of launchers as you like.
For painters+rages, it's 50% more.
I have maximised everything and t2 stuff. thats not possible, not even with 5 bcu IIs.
I'd say 99,9% of your alliance would know better than you.
5% rof implant, ofcourse.
I have 7.2 s rof and torps hit for 782dmg on hull with 3 t2 bcus. Now calculate as you wish.
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JoCool
Caldari Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:36:00 -
[65]
Edited by: JoCool on 17/10/2006 19:43:41 You said 6.97 seconds and now corrected yourself. I do have the 5% rof implant too, and also a rof of 7.20 shots per second.
Addendum: The 50% more damage for rages part is not really true though.
Note that these calculations are for Rage torpedos, anti structure and anti capital weapons who require a signature radius of 1000m to achieve full damage output. Also you must assume that the target in this calculation sits still and does not move more than 100m/s.
3 TP II, no stacking nerf yet, on an enemy raven, second largest tier2 bs signature, which then has 882 sig, 1035,7 raw damage per shot, 863,1 raw dps. With close to no defense, immobility and a very short operational range - if you want more than a single volley of torps to hit before the gang's target is dead. Note this is for Rage Torps - no range, no speed on the missile, no cap recharge for yourself. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:37:00 -
[66]
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp
With absolutely maxed stats, yes? And 300kk implant? Sacrificed tank, yes? We have 688 dps. Not a much at all.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:48:00 -
[67]
Originally by: JoCool Edited by: JoCool on 17/10/2006 19:41:02 You said 6.97 seconds and now corrected yourself. I do have the 5% rof implant too, and also a rof of 7.20 shots per second.
Addendum: The 50% more damage for rages part is not really true though.
3 TP II on a raven, second largest t2 bs signature, which then has 882 sig, 1035,7 raw damage per shot, 863,1 raw dps. With close to no defense, immobility and a very short operational range - if you want more than a single volley of torps to hit before the gang's target is dead.
You have torp spec 5 and you get 7.2 rof with how many dmg mods?
About rages... 50% more vs target of right size. I admit i usually don't bother carrying them around, but i've seen them in action vs carrier and they are useful, sometimes. And i think huginn does the trick on most bs.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:49:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 10:12:22 6.97s rof, 800dmg /torp
With absolutely maxed stats, yes? And 300kk implant? Sacrificed tank, yes? We have 688 dps. Not a much at all.
I wonder how much dps farjung's vindicator was doing without drones and antimatter ? Or void ...
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Tassi
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.10.17 19:55:00 -
[69]
My caldari alt has currently 8.3 mill skillpoints all specced in t2 torp-raven.
I use it with ECM or with a nice 11% more effective shield tank than double t2 armor tank.
Will never use a geddon again, these goddamn javelin torps ... OMG <3
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tassi My caldari alt has currently 8.3 mill skillpoints all specced in t2 torp-raven.
I use it with ECM or with a nice 11% more effective shield tank than double t2 armor tank.
Will never use a geddon again, these goddamn javelin torps ... OMG <3
Would you be so kind to post your setup? I wonder... Such great setups! Deadly dps! Uber tanks! ECM! No post yet!
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Tassi
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:04:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Tassi on 17/10/2006 20:04:37 highs: 6xt2 torp, 2x medium energy neut mids: 1x 20km scram, sensor booster, 4x ECM multi spec t2 lows: 1x stab, 3x bcu t2, 1x medium armor rep
you should drop the stab and put a plate on.
EDIT: not gonna tell you the shieldtanked one, well gimme 10 mill and I will mail you.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:05:00 -
[72]
quoted from another thread: ---------------------------------------------- I flew Cadari exclusivly for ages and almost never used the railgun ships.
All was great till I had to fight in fleet battles Vs. RA which are arch snipers. ---------------------------------------------- Read and remember, whiners. Above mentioned tactic killed Raven as fleet ship. And, dear Caldari, forget about missiles. Switch asap on rails...
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:09:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tassi Edited by: Tassi on 17/10/2006 20:04:37 highs: 6xt2 torp, 2x medium energy neut mids: 1x 20km scram, sensor booster, 4x ECM multi spec t2 lows: 1x stab, 3x bcu t2, 1x medium armor rep
you should drop the stab and put a plate on.
Good setup. I am using very similar(with plate). Adviced to me by my good friend half year ago. But it has no tanking ability at all. And usually I need an MWD :(.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:15:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Tassi Edited by: Tassi on 17/10/2006 20:04:37 highs: 6xt2 torp, 2x medium energy neut mids: 1x 20km scram, sensor booster, 4x ECM multi spec t2 lows: 1x stab, 3x bcu t2, 1x medium armor rep
you should drop the stab and put a plate on.
Good setup. I am using very similar(with plate). Adviced to me by my good friend half year ago. But it has no tanking ability at all. And usually I need an MWD :(.
Drop scram and fit mwd, you need hypnos multis though.
I agree, missiles have issues in fleets, but you have scorp :P
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Frezik
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:24:00 -
[75]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Frezik
Originally by: welsh wizard Understand that when you ask for a Javelin nerf Caldari pilots see it as a request to trash the one area our battleship excels in.
The Raven is the top mission runner, top ncper, and highly effective in small gangs. For the sake of argument, I'll say it sucks solo (but I find that highly debateable). There's little debate about the Raven's lack of abilities in long-range fleet combat. We'll also say that it's not a good miner, just for the sake of completeness.
So you excel in many areas, suck in at most three, one of which few other battleships are very good in, anyway. And you can do it with less than 5mil total skill points, where every other battleship needs 10-20mil, at least.
You can't have a ship that excels in everything, and no ship in Eve does.
I don't give two fiddles abouts its ability to blow up npc's. We're talking about a Javelin nerf and therefore a player versus player nerf.
All areas that the Raven is good/bad in should be considered. Focusing on a single area gets you idiotic balance.
Quote: As for the 5million skill point thing, for npc'ing maybe, for pvp? Not a chance, a Raven is cannon fodder in a noobs hands. Understand how bad missiles are without at least 3mil skill points in missiles alone. Don't take my word for it, try it.
I'm running EveMon off a fresh character, and gave her the following skills (and prereqs):
Caldari BS II Torpedos I Electronics V Electronic Upgrades I Engineering IV Energy Grid Upgrades II Shield Management I Tactical Shield Manipulation I Shield Operation I Propultion Jamming I Energy Emission Systems III Missile Launcher Operation IV Missile Bombardment IV Rapid Launch IV Target Navigation Prediction IV Warhead Upgrades IV
Comes in at about 1.5mil skill points. Getting all the base missile skills (Bombardment, operation, projection, rapid launch, nav prediction, and upgrades) to level V puts it at just under 4.9 mil points, but I hardly think that's necessary to be effective. All that plus Torp V and Torp Specilization I put us over, at ~5.9mil points. If you want cruises instead of torps, add in Guided Precition (+300k points for lvl4, 1.3 for lvl5) and cruise skill itself (for t2, another 1.3mil points). Here again, I don't think t2 is necessary to be effective--just to make you be able to handle more situations.
Overall, we're looking at less than 2 mil points to be effective in missions, npcing, and small gangs. For just under 5mil, you can get all the base skills you need for torps to lvl5. For under 9mil, you can throw t2 torps, t2 cruises, and guided missile precision V on top of that.
Running a QuickFit, this is enough to run this setup:
6xSiege Missile Launcher I 2xMedium Nosferatu I Medium Nosferatu I XLarge C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Shield Boost Amplifier I Photon Scattering Field I 3xInvulnerability Field I 2xPower Diagnostic System I 2xCo-Processor I Ballistic Control System I
This can be further improved with more skills or some named items, of course, but it's certianly more effective than any other battleship with such low skill points. In solo work, you'll have problems keeping the enemy around, but this is plenty effective enough for small gangs. It's uber for any PvE work (with minor changes to the hardners)--even faction BS have trouble matching it there.
So arguments for the Raven go:
* Uncontested best in PvE * Minor skillpoints needed for effectiveness in small gangs * Becomes uber at skill point levels where most BS are getting a running start * Formerly on par with turrents in ability to take down frigs, but fixed with t2 missiles
Arguments against:
* Useless in long-range fleet warefare * Sucks when solo (remember, I'm just giving this one to you) * Sucks for mining (whooptie-do)
Compared to its advantages, why can't Caldari live with those minor and often debatable list of problems?
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:25:00 -
[76]
Originally by: LUKEC
Drop scram and fit mwd, you need hypnos multis though.
I agree, missiles have issues in fleets, but you have scorp :P
Cannot fit plate(afair, not enough PG). Scorp is good ship, but it is about ECM, not missile. In modern Eve war there is no place for missile in the fleet battle. At all. May be in the future something will be changed. But currently I see no chance to missile BS in the fight against well-organized turret BS gang.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:34:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Frezik
So arguments for the Raven go:
* Uncontested best in PvE * Minor skillpoints needed for effectiveness in small gangs * Becomes uber at skill point levels where most BS are getting a running start * Formerly on par with turrents in ability to take down frigs, but fixed with t2 missiles
Arguments against:
* Useless in long-range fleet warefare * Sucks when solo (remember, I'm just giving this one to you) * Sucks for mining (whooptie-do)
Compared to its advantages, why can't Caldari live with those minor and often debatable list of problems?
You are right less or more.
Few clarifications:
pro: * easy to use(no need to care about tracking)
against: * Useless in any fleet warfare * No sniping setup
So, not bad yes? And let's naughty boy calculate for us dps...)
Problem that if you wish to feel the life you will move to 0.0. Yes? Yes. To live in 0.0 you have to fight with your mates and kill enemy en-masse. Yes? Yes. But Raven is not suitable for this task. You with your Raven is ballast in the fleet. Just another one BS which will be added to statistic by your enemy after battle.
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Frezik
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:46:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Zixxa But Raven is not suitable for this task. You with your Raven is ballast in the fleet. Just another one BS which will be added to statistic by your enemy after battle.
Not every 0.0 battle is a big fleet battle. In fact, I daresay they're not even the vast majority of the battles. If you are really stuck on using the Raven and only the Raven, there's lots of fun to be had in small gang 0.0 fights.
I'm sick of Caldari complaining that the Raven is no good for long-range fleet warefare, for the same reasons that I don't think we need to buff hammers just because it's the wrong tool for cutting a board.
If you want a fleet BS, train a few ECM skills and get in a Scorp. Or (*gasp*) train some gunnery skills and wait for the Caldari's new railboat.
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.10.17 20:51:00 -
[79]
You know the whole 'turrents' thing just isnt funny anymore ----------
- Office Linebacker -
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.17 21:39:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yeah, missile damage sucks.
Oh yes. The highest damage output of this deadly raven with 6 torp launchers and maxed skills being... 688. Wow. Not to mention that 3/8 battleship's sigs are too small to be affected fully. Oh, and anyone with an afterburner or microwarp on their battleship will see a pretty good damage reduction (if not using javelins).
Except for the part where Javelins were stipulated by the only person posting their figure here.
Yeah, 688 DPS at any range from 0 to 250km with completely selectable damage types is terrible. After all that's only the same ballpark as a Barrage-'pest, Electron-'thron or what have you.
Oh man, so bad. Needs improvement ASAP
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Majin82
Caldari g guild
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Posted - 2006.10.17 22:46:00 -
[81]
From what I have read and understand. Unless you fully fit your Raven with Officer Gear (launchers, Shields, BCU...) and spend over 1.5 billion ISK. You will never have a Raven that can solo on it's own effectivly. Thats makes me cry . ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild! |
Slender Brenda
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.17 22:55:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Majin82 From what I have read and understand. Unless you fully fit your Raven with Officer Gear (launchers, Shields, BCU...) and spend over 1.5 billion ISK. You will never have a Raven that can solo on it's own effectivly. Thats makes me cry .
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Majin82
Caldari g guild
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Posted - 2006.10.17 23:05:00 -
[83]
I see your and raise you a
------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild! |
westernstab
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Posted - 2006.10.17 23:17:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 17/10/2006 12:19:49 ôLook here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...ö It that very old? All I know is my Eos without a drone damage bonus kills over twice as fast as all my friends in Ravens, I use drones alone nothing else. I am normally half way though my target before my friends kill their first rat. We often pick 750k battleships and start firing at the same time and even with 50km travel time for drones I kill way faster.
When I take my domi with lvl 5 BS for a large drone damage boost I kill even faster.
So that means a raven has a higher DPS agaist large objects. Is that not balanced one ship is better agaist POS's and cap ships. another race is better agaist same size ships and yet another race is good agaist smaller ships. (ever see a temptest 1 volley a cruiser)
not saying it is a perfect balance but comeing here complaing about you cant fight Bs's when it appears your ship is designed to fight bigger targets is a bit short sighted.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.10.18 00:59:00 -
[85]
This argument is a crock of **** tbh.
It's like head butting a wall. This is the freakin' internet, no-one is ever going to be convinced to change their opinion.
"The Raven isn't overpowered!" "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!!" etc etc
Sigh.
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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Flabida jaba
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Posted - 2006.10.18 01:42:00 -
[86]
dang nabed whiners .......
If raven's are so overpowered...why dont you just train for one......i had a new character in a torp raven in 2 months
And dont responed with any lame ..."but i dont want a raven" "i want my ship to pwnd like a raven does" bullsheet!
if you like your ship fly it and STFU If you want to Pwnd..get a raven or STFU
personally im traning Gallente BS to 5 for a ship that can actually win 1 on 1! do massive damage to any ship class! and tank like a concrete block on steroids!
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.18 02:37:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kunming Some more problems: - Missile HP was increased, defender dmg NOT - Missile speed was increased, defender speed NOT - There is no EW system that neutralizes ships with missile launchers - Missiles were given 0 cap usage so neutralizing their cap isnt an option anymore either
- Defenders still kill cruise missiles and smaller in a single hit. - Defenders have 2x the speed of a light missile, base, and their skill gives 5% more speed per level, and you still get another missile skill to further boost their speed. - ECM screws a missile user just like everyone else. FOF will hit the closest hostile, and if they have drones on you, you're going to be picking at them while the others rip you apart. There's also no rocket/torpedo FOF. - Missiles aren't the only 0 cap weapon.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.18 02:41:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Johnny Bravo Look here: DPS Graph and tell me again what Raven somehow lack DPS. It need nerfing, if any...
You mean like needing to use 5 midslots for the 4 painters and webber you need to do those DPS to a BS and only a BS?
/me points out a stationary cruiser or BC is going to feel the full force of those other ships, and never of the Ragen.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.10.18 02:53:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
- Defenders still kill cruise missiles and smaller in a single hit. - Defenders have 2x the speed of a light missile, base, and their skill gives 5% more speed per level, and you still get another missile skill to further boost their speed. - ECM screws a missile user just like everyone else. FOF will hit the closest hostile, and if they have drones on you, you're going to be picking at them while the others rip you apart. There's also no rocket/torpedo FOF. - Missiles aren't the only 0 cap weapon.
I can't believe someone is saying defenders are decent. They are completely useless. End of discussion.
Originally by: Flabida jaba dang nabed whiners .......
If raven's are so overpowered...why dont you just train for one......i had a new character in a torp raven in 2 months
And dont responed with any lame ..."but i dont want a raven" "i want my ship to pwnd like a raven does" bullsheet!
if you like your ship fly it and STFU If you want to Pwnd..get a raven or STFU
personally im traning Gallente BS to 5 for a ship that can actually win 1 on 1! do massive damage to any ship class! and tank like a concrete block on steroids!
**** off troll. Not everyone wants every ******* battleship in game to be a raven.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.18 03:09:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
- Defenders still kill cruise missiles and smaller in a single hit. - Defenders have 2x the speed of a light missile, base, and their skill gives 5% more speed per level, and you still get another missile skill to further boost their speed. - ECM screws a missile user just like everyone else. FOF will hit the closest hostile, and if they have drones on you, you're going to be picking at them while the others rip you apart. There's also no rocket/torpedo FOF. - Missiles aren't the only 0 cap weapon.
I can't believe someone is saying defenders are decent. They are completely useless. End of discussion.
I was refuting someone's arguements, at no point did I say defenders are decent. The will kill any missile cruise size or smaller though, and some people seem to think defenders should be one size kills all, if they fix missiles, I'd hope that to NOT be the case.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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