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Pandorath
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 06:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm sure you players are aware that orcas have ship maintenance bays where you store ships. A group of people, the so called ninjas use them to carry the gank ships they use to kill victims, with introduction of Incarna that function got nerfed.
Unannounced, wasn't in patch notes, and we had to wait a few days for CCP to confirm that its another "hidden feature" aka silent nerf.
The thread is here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=37517#post37517
There was also this post by GM Haggis: "Hi Everyone
This particular trick was patched out recently and deliberately, you will no longer be able to switch ships from a Ship Maintenance Array (in any ship) while you are under an aggression timer in High Security space. This will still work in Low Sec and Null Sec.
We are aware of the other method of switching ships (ejecting and having the SMA ship scoop them) and this is not against any rules, as it carries with it some more risks than the previous method of instantly switching from the SMA."
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1574877
And now the stealth nerf #2
You can no longer scoop targeted ships to the orcas SMA...
Was...
We are aware of the other method of switching ships (ejecting and having the SMA ship scoop them) and this is not against any rules, as it carries with it some more risks than the previous method of instantly switching from the SMA
...this intended?
Why is it *AGAIN* not in patch notes, and again came unannounced? Along with nerf of suicide ganking (no more insurance payouts when concord kills you)... Does CCP want to remove griefers from the game? Whats next on their list of things to do before they change EVE into a PEGI 7+ game (hello kitty with spaceships kind of thing) ?
PS: i might not reply because of my fireworks protest in jita today... You get the idea.
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Pandorath
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 06:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
If i may add, Thank you GM Tiny for helping me with the fireworks, i couldn't have done it without you . |
Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
92
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Posted - 2011.12.03 06:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
I approve of CCP taking steps to remove the risk free PvP that goes on in this game. |
Marchland
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 06:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:Tarsas Phage:
GM Haggis wrote:
The role of the Orca as a mining support vessel has not been changed in any and as that was it's designed purpose we would not consider this change anything other than a bug fix.
I don't buy this as being classified as a mere bug fix. This was a feature of the Orca which has existed since the ship, or ships with SMAs in general, have existed. Considering between then and now is a non-trivial amount of time, and given the recent results of the CSM Crowd Sourcing project, you must be daft to think that anyone will buy the "bug fix" line.
GM Haggis, is CCP now trying to enforce or confine ships to intended roles? Does this mean we can also expect to see Rorquals or Hulks being disallowed to mount neuts, points or any such other offensive modules? How about removing turret slots from Industrials?
And since you seem to be on a bug fixing bent here, lets hear about the progress on fixing the bugs which affect everyone's game play, such as windows sticking to mouse pointers, the random offline module lottery, and other such glaring examples of non-existent pre-release QA testing?
This, so hard. |
Marchland
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 06:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
woops |
Pandorath
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 06:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I approve of CCP taking steps to remove the risk free PvP that goes on in this game. It's not risk free pvp, its griefing. I'm ok with the first patch apart from the stealthy backstab, the second one however was unnecessary, you couldn't run away if you were pointed anymore. CCP just made the mission runners that shoot you "risk free pvpers". So much for knowing what its about. |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
354
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Posted - 2011.12.03 07:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
This was one of the first things announced for Crucible. The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
VKhaun Vex
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2011.12.03 07:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
GM Haggis wrote:Noot Khorhar wrote:Screw you ccp. cant you announce future changes/nerfs that require long skilling for alts with ships and mechanics not long enough in advance. the second time you hit me with skilling for special things in eve and once i have skilled it is worthless. nice way you treat your paying customers. The role of the Orca as a mining support vessel has not been changed in any and as that was it's designed purpose we would not consider this change anything other than a bug fix.
This makes perfect sense to me... I don't see an argument against it, just whining. |
Marchland
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 09:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
The argument against it is:
A Bug: The duplicating minerals glitch in the 0.0 stations that was used for years.
A Feature: The ability to switch ships in and out of a ship maintenance array, usable since the Orca was introduced.
Fix a ******* bug, don't take away a feature of a ship. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
68
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Posted - 2011.12.03 10:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
So, CCP decided that Orcas are now only unflippable jetcans and unscannable haulers, huh?
If they are so intent on 'fixing' the Orca, and restricting its role, when are they going to get around to
A) allow people to scan their hangar bays properly. B) make it so the cargo drops, like any other cargo.
'Stealth' cargo bays are an abuse that allow risk-free hauling and risk-free trade profits. Huge amounts of valuable cargo and BPOs are moved in their corporate hangar bays every day. Large amounts of EHP already makes them difficult to gank - but no way to scan + 0% chance of dropping = risk free hauling in highsec.
So I think its long past time CCP did something about it this obvious bug.
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Sphynix
G-Spot industries
11
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Posted - 2011.12.03 11:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: 'Stealth' cargo bays are an abuse that allow risk-free hauling and risk-free trade profits. Huge amounts of valuable cargo and BPOs are moved in their corporate hangar bays every day. Large amounts of EHP already makes them difficult to gank - but no way to scan + 0% chance of dropping = risk free hauling in highsec.
Actually i'd see it as not "risk free hauling" because the risk of being successfully ganked is just as high. The real risk is to the gank'ees, after all - you can kill it just as easy, but do you get anything?
So the real whine with this one isn't that it's risk free - but that your "piracy" attempts aren't guaranteed to give you (the chance of) phat lewts. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
68
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Posted - 2011.12.03 11:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sphynix wrote: Actually i'd see it as not "risk free hauling" because the risk of being successfully ganked is just as high. The real risk is to the gank'ees, after all - you can kill it just as easy, but do you get anything?
So the real whine with this one isn't that it's risk free - but that your "piracy" attempts aren't guaranteed to give you (the chance of) phat lewts.
I haul all the time. OFC its risk-free hauling, especially after the insurance nerf. Sure its 'possible', at a cost, to gank an Orca now, but why would anyone?
Ganking the massive EHP they have requires 12-20 Tempests/Tornados - costing hundreds of millions in hulls that are now not only guaranteed to die - but without an insurance payoff.
Thus, nobody is going to gank an seemingly 'empty' T1-Insurable Orca - especially if the 'hidden' loot will not drop - not even for tears. Any gang of that size would simply be better served taking down the nearest freighter.
If I wanted to move a T2 BPO worth Billions? Large stacks of Implants, worth 10's of billions? I would do it in a tanked Orca Corp hangar, hands down, every time, no question, with nothing else in the cargo. And no doubt, people do. I'd even undock from Jita 4-4 without the slightest concern - as nobody but me knows that is secreted there.
Making Orcas scannable forces that highly valuable cargo to be moved in other ways, or at least be at a slight risk for a loss to a determined gank squad.
Its quite simply, unbalancing to be able to move ultra high value goods around high-sec without exposing it to risk.
So, CCP, if you feel like the Orca needs fixing because a small subset of players use them creatively as speedy high-sec carriers, fine....but I don't see why they should be the 'ultimate hauler', either.
Time to squash that corp hangar bug!
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DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
440
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Posted - 2011.12.03 12:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
It's not in the patch notes, as it is now classified an exploit. HTFU. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
25
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Posted - 2011.12.03 12:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:It's not in the patch notes, as it is now classified an exploit. HTFU.
exactly my thoughts. |
Ariane VoxDei
28
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Posted - 2011.12.03 13:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pandorath wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I approve of CCP taking steps to remove the risk free PvP that goes on in this game. It's not risk free pvp, its griefing. I'm ok with the first patch apart from the stealthy backstab, the second one however was unnecessary, you couldn't run away if you were pointed anymore. CCP just made the mission runners that shoot you "risk free pvpers". So much for knowing what its about. Hypocrite much? Since when has there been much risk in shooting a mission runner that has agressed back at you?
Dont see much nerf in not being able to scoop ships with the orca, while said ships are locked. Why would your orca be ongrid anyway and if it isnt locking is a nonissue anyway. I could see much hilarity if the orca inherited the flagging by scooping the ship though, suddenly that big fatboy would be on the line too for taking part in asshattery.
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
30
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Posted - 2011.12.03 13:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Long overdue fix. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1852
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Posted - 2011.12.03 14:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pandorath wrote:It's not risk free pvp, its griefing. You know that griefing isn't allowed in EVE and will get you banned, right?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Pandorath
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 14:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
At least 90% of eve players are the so called bears, i do not expect that i will get much support. This however has nothing to do with ships corp hangars which still work.
Also
Tippia wrote:Pandorath wrote:It's not risk free pvp, its griefing. You know that griefing isn't allowed in EVE and will get you banned, right? Griefing in eve is allowed and is not bannable. L2EvE |
Pandorath
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 14:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ariane VoxDei wrote:Pandorath wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I approve of CCP taking steps to remove the risk free PvP that goes on in this game. It's not risk free pvp, its griefing. I'm ok with the first patch apart from the stealthy backstab, the second one however was unnecessary, you couldn't run away if you were pointed anymore. CCP just made the mission runners that shoot you "risk free pvpers". So much for knowing what its about. Hypocrite much? Since when has there been much risk in shooting a mission runner that has agressed back at you? Dont see much nerf in not being able to scoop ships with the orca, while said ships are locked. Why would your orca be ongrid anyway and if it isnt locking is a nonissue anyway. I could see much hilarity if the orca inherited the flagging by scooping the ship though, suddenly that big fatboy would be on the line too for taking part in asshattery.
So its okay for bears to be able to shoot us without consequences but not okay for us to be able to kill them for it?
So much for calling me a hypocrite...
Bear/Missionrunner can choose to not shoot us OR call corpies for help. Im not sure you people realise that...
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
68
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Posted - 2011.12.03 15:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
LOL, Ariene. If you don't know why the Orca is 'on grid', you have no business participating in this discussion.
If CCP has an issue with people 'removing ships from combat' via Orca, I don't have a huge problem with that.
After all, most ninjas use tanked-frigates to bait Mission-runners into shooting. And really, who cares if the bait is left outside the Orca and destroyed.
What is important is that the Orca can bring a ship with more firepower to the grid, and that the swap can be done quickly enough to re-establish lock on the 'CNR' before it can warp-out.
The name of the game is getting a CNR to shoot at your frigate, keeping the CNR scrambled, and seamlessly switching into a larger ship that can kill the CNR - without having to leave grid. (If you leave grid to change ships, it gives the Mission Runner the opportunity to dock up at their leisure.)
Orcas are important to ninjas because mission-bears will not shoot at a Hurricane, but they WILL take potshots at Vigils. Conversely, a Hurricane can crack most PVE Battleship tanks - where a Vigil would fail.
Orcas merely allow salvagers to change the fight from CNR vs Vigil, into CNR vs Hurricane.
So, people can't hide a ship from combat in an Orca? Fair enough. Was never a concern for most of us.
But if artificial timers and flags make it impossible to BOARD a new ship (capable of cracking a PVE tank, that is) - call it what it is: "CCP hugging Carebear *******."
In all other ways, the Carebear controls the engagement - because they have to shoot first. They knew what they were doing. Any sympathy you have for them is misplaced.
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Cobalt Valkyrie
Dead Pilots Society Chaos Theory Alliance
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 17:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: I haul all the time. OFC its risk-free hauling, especially after the insurance nerf. Sure its 'possible', at a cost, to gank an Orca now, but why would anyone?
Ganking the massive EHP they have requires 12-20 Tempests/Tornados - costing hundreds of millions in hulls that are now not only guaranteed to die - but without an insurance payoff.
Thus, nobody is going to gank an seemingly 'empty' T1-Insurable Orca - especially if the 'hidden' loot will not drop - not even for tears. Any gang of that size would simply be better served taking down the nearest freighter.
Wrong. I have (with friends) ganked orcas multiple times, just for lols, and I don't intend to stop just because I won't get insurance anymore. It's not about loot, it's not even necessarily about tears... sometimes it's just about having a laugh.
Don't assume you're safe.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1852
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Posted - 2011.12.03 18:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pandorath wrote:Griefing in eve is allowed and is not bannable. Incorrect on both accounts. Your problem is that you have brought some irrelevant notion of GÇ£griefingGÇ¥ in from some other silly game that has nothing to do with EVE.
So, indeed, L2EVE: it's not what you think it is. Griefing gets you banned around here.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Teldarus
Apexs Industries Matari Visionary Coalition
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 18:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Does this change prevent you from changing ships altogether or just prevent you getting out of combat.
If its the former i can see where that would be a problem but if its the latter then i say thats the way it should be.
Op said you can no longer scoop ships into the SMA when your flagged and im not sure how that affects the act the trying to kill some lowly carebear other than the fact that you might lose a ship.
If someone could clarify what the actual bug is, or if it was just an exploit that got patched out and now gankers are pissed, I would appreciate it.
Long time reader first time poster. |
SpaceSquirrels
18
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Posted - 2011.12.03 18:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
^
It's more about people with negative sec status sneaking ships in via an orca...or rather them poding around and then getting a ship.
The other method lets said orca scoop pew pew ship into a bay and now you can't esplode it because it's in said bay and under a neutral "3rd party".
I say we allow it, but like logi that orca gets to be shot as well. No more neutral BS.
Also yeah it is kinda BS that you can't scan corp hangars on an orca....And why is it called an orca anyway? God damned killer whale! Should have named it the humpback or something.
That's the real outrage in all this I tell you! |
Minister of Death
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2011.12.03 18:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
excellent change imo |
Pandorath
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.03 19:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Pandorath wrote:Griefing in eve is allowed and is not bannable. Incorrect on both accounts. Your problem is that you have brought some irrelevant notion of GÇ£griefingGÇ¥ in from some other silly game that has nothing to do with EVE. So, indeed, L2EVE: it's not what you think it is. Griefing gets you banned around here.
Ninja salvaging, bumping, suicide ganking, awoxing, reverse awoxing, infiltration, stealing, pirating, scamming, wardecking for ransom, ransoming ships and not honoring it... I thought this was related to the word griefing no?
"A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game that deliberately irritates and harasses other players." -wiki
...White knights are the most sick people in EvE. |
SpaceSquirrels
19
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Causing grief isnt the same thing as griefing. Griefing is tantamount to a sustained effort to ruins one gameplay. Essentially you dont leave a person alone...ever/go out of your way to **** with them. Harder in eve I suppose, but lets say in an FPS constant team killing would be griefing or using your body to trap them in a corner so they can't move etc.
In eve it would be more akin to blatant harassment. |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
59
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
This wrong, the Orca should be able to scoop in ships! |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
70
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Posted - 2011.12.03 20:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cobalt Valkyrie wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: I haul all the time. OFC its risk-free hauling, especially after the insurance nerf. Sure its 'possible', at a cost, to gank an Orca now, but why would anyone?
Ganking the massive EHP they have requires 12-20 Tempests/Tornados - costing hundreds of millions in hulls that are now not only guaranteed to die - but without an insurance payoff.
Thus, nobody is going to gank an seemingly 'empty' T1-Insurable Orca - especially if the 'hidden' loot will not drop - not even for tears. Any gang of that size would simply be better served taking down the nearest freighter.
Wrong. I have (with friends) ganked orcas multiple times, just for lols, and I don't intend to stop just because I won't get insurance anymore. It's not about loot, it's not even necessarily about tears... sometimes it's just about having a laugh. Don't assume you're safe.
Well, lets run the numbers. Post-insurance nerf, suppose you want to kill a random Orca. Average EHP-fit would require about 15 Tornados to kill. Costs about 55M for each gank boat, so total for Gank attempt is 825M.
So, you are telling me 15 gankers are going to take a 825M loss to pop an 'empty', average Orca, worth 400M, just for fun?
OK, yes, it 'could' happen. But at that prohibitive cost, the odds of a random Orca thrill kill (without profit motive) are spectacularly, vanishingly small. Don't even insult people here by claiming otherwise.
Ask yourself, what would YOU move T2 BPOs in? A blockade runner? A Cov ops? A scanable freighter? Don't make me laugh. Not safe enough? You can tank them above 300K EHP.
Are you seriously telling me that this vanishingly small chance of a random 15-man blind Orca gank (at great loss to the ganking force), justifies leaving the Orca with a 'stealth cargo bay' that 'magically' doesn't drop loot?
Or are you just being contrary? |
Songbird
41
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Posted - 2011.12.03 21:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
mwahaha - I especially love the part where even if you do gank an orca at random it still drops nada - even if the whole bay was filled with trillions of isk worth of plexes
that's like griefing the gankers :).
Although I suppose they do get to see what's on the inside once the killmail is posted - LOL |
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