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Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
1262
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Posted - 2015.03.23 00:23:08 -
[31] - Quote
People who die sooner than later are less likely to give two sh*ts about safety. People who make it their life's goal to never lose a ship are the ones who will rage quit after 4 months of killing themselves in highsec.
Thus I say: After 3 days in game without a loss to another player, a newbro should be given a permanent suspect timer until they have lost 5 mil worth of ships.
I predict no one would ever quit.
Don't get lost alone - Join Signal Cartel, New Eden's premier haven for explorers!
Onward to Thera with Eve Scout
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Tora Bushido
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
2109
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Posted - 2015.03.23 00:54:56 -
[32] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:I came into the game to be a voice for a change, and a voice for a safer and more law abiding highsec. We seem to be winning. You know how arrogant that sounds ? "I came to the game and now they must change it cuz I am here" ... serious mate ? You're not even close to winning, if there was already something to win, as even CCP agrees with the aggressors. Checkmate, m8!
TORA FOR CSM X - A NEW HIGH-SEC
YOU EITHER LOVE US OR WE HATE YOU - DELETE THE WEAK , ADAPT OR DIE !
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2536
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Posted - 2015.03.23 01:19:09 -
[33] - Quote
Danalee wrote:- Marmites don't strive to interact negatively with new players. (You'll have to take my word for it, go figure ) - Marmites in general help and support new players on a regular basis. - In some threads, Veers says Marmites are ineffective. - In this thread, Veers says Marmites go around and 'curbstomp' people (so ARE in fact effective). - In this thread, Veers says Facts, numbers and statistics are not relevant. - in this thread, Veers says his truths are the only ones that matter.
Veers 2016. He's clearly mastered one of the most important skills for a politician.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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Mortlake
Somalian Coast Guard Authority
268
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Posted - 2015.03.23 02:14:28 -
[34] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:
Stock twaddle.
I regularly reimburse new players and talk to them at length about how to avoid getting killed in future. This is obviously at odds with my ultimate goal of being a skill-less, risk averse griefing ne'er-do-well and, for someone as myopic as you, would not be a logical course of action.
No doubt a few of those I've killed went potty and left the game, but in my experience, having popped many a space cherry, I think you'll find that not everyone is as anally retentive as you are and the majority of newer players are happy to engage with their killers. This has never been as a result of me convoing them to 'farm tears', but quite the reverse. New players are more often than not curious as to how a particular situation came about in terms of mechanics. The same applies to most people I fly with.
Sadly your sweeping generalizations devalue your arguments, which are weak at best and continue to reinforce the impression most people have of you as being an asshat. This is a shame as you're obviously an intelligent person. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23310
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Posted - 2015.03.23 02:33:16 -
[35] - Quote
^^ +1 for using the word twaddle
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Leto Thule
Origin. Black Legion.
2238
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Posted - 2015.03.23 06:17:53 -
[36] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:
That you don't find PvE fun is certainly your prerogative. And certainly you can get your thrill about being prey to a predator by going to low/null. There are many, like me, who don't play Eve to be prey. I'm not interested in facing danger from repeat criminals. That's why we stick to highsec, for low risk wealth accumulation. There should certainly be areas for both playstyles, low/null/wh for those who want to face the danger of constant death, and high for those who want a much more orderly, laid back, lawful, and safe experience.
Nobody is limiting play styles. The only one trying to do that is you, and the other bears trying to kill this game. It has been 10 years, and in that ten years every single player has started at a highsec station. Each of them went through the learning curve, understanding what actions end up in getting them blown up. High sec, as you have correctly stated, is more orderly. However, it is not safe, and by the exact wording of CCP, is not intended to be.
Yeah, you can duck wardecs, you can do your best to avoid conflict, and you can fill the forums with your poison. If you are just a troll, its masterful. If you actually think the crap you write is true, you are helping to drive the nails into EVE's coffin.
Big Fat Forum Meanie and Thanatos Scammer
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Brawlers Inc.
1556
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Posted - 2015.03.23 11:50:39 -
[37] - Quote
Tora Bushido wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Presumably CCP means that players who experience PvP combat where they have a chance of winning and inflicting real losses on other other side. Not getting curbstompped by hopelessly better funded, equipped, skilled, and numbed marmite campers. What you see is what you get. They made the same wrong assumptions as you did, but were man enough to admit it after proper research. Wars and Ganking are good for Eve..... Let's buff it and make Eve an even better place. \\ // http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/639617004 - Starts at 3:15 Started at 3:15? I have to admit to laughing when I saw that. Excellent presentation.
Veers, forget marmite in the discussion for a minute. Explain to me how gank victims are more likely to subscribe than victims of "legitimate pvp", and how that means that wardec and ganking groups are bad for the game. Tora, less wardeccing, more ganking! =P
New Player Placement Specialist and Scope Project FC.
Contact me for a free consultation.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
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Starrakatt
Hunter Killers. Forsaken Asylum
241
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Posted - 2015.03.23 12:25:53 -
[38] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:Tora Bushido wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Presumably CCP means that players who experience PvP combat where they have a chance of winning and inflicting real losses on other other side. Not getting curbstompped by hopelessly better funded, equipped, skilled, and numbed marmite campers. What you see is what you get. They made the same wrong assumptions as you did, but were man enough to admit it after proper research. Wars and Ganking are good for Eve..... Let's buff it and make Eve an even better place. \\ // http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/639617004 - Starts at 3:15 Started at 3:15? I have to admit to laughing when I saw that. Excellent presentation. Veers, forget marmite in the discussion for a minute. Explain to me how gank victims are more likely to subscribe than victims of "legitimate pvp", and how that means that wardec and ganking groups are bad for the game. Tora, less wardeccing, more ganking! =P I agree, every wardec organisation SHOULD have a gank squad to deal with specific 'clients', such as Veers, and other corp droppers.
Statistics says it all, people who get exploded tend to play longer, YEAH!
Forsaken Asylum's ways
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Waltaratzor
Aliastra Gallente Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.03.23 12:39:08 -
[39] - Quote
An incredible number of players never even experience PvP. They mine or run missions, then quit because those things are boring.
For many of these people, getting forced to PvP through a wardec or gank is the only thing that will break this trend. |
Ilithyia Borgia
The Conference Elite CODE.
9
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Posted - 2015.03.23 18:35:10 -
[40] - Quote
Why feed the troll? Veers is clearly immune to both facts and reason. |
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Ilithyia Borgia
The Conference Elite CODE.
9
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Posted - 2015.03.23 18:38:29 -
[41] - Quote
Mortlake wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:
Stock twaddle.
Sadly your sweeping generalizations devalue your arguments, which are weak at best and continue to reinforce the impression most people have of you as being an asshat (see what I did there?). This is a shame as you're obviously an intelligent person.
Must disagree - intelligent people modify their positions in the face of contradictory evidence. |
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1202
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Posted - 2015.03.23 20:00:10 -
[42] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:tears, glorious tears
How wonderful that CCP finally shatters your delusions.
So when are you cancelling your account?
Soon, we all hope?
Because clearly this game isn't for you.
Be sure to send us postcards from Star Trek Online or whatever other game you migrate too.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Ripard Teg
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
1018
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Posted - 2015.03.23 20:28:04 -
[43] - Quote
So let's see if we can sum up CCP's "Science!" here:
- Gankers would rather kill mining barges, particularly Hulks and Mackinaws (and other ships you can't fly within 15 days);
- Gankers rarely kill Ventures and cruisers (and other ships you can fly within 15 days);
- new players that jump right into BRAVE, RvB, or other "legal" PvP activity enjoy EVE and stay subscribed; and,
- new players that avoid PvP and presumably stick with EVE's horrifically bad PvE don't subscribe.
Have I summed up the "research" adequately? In other news, CCP discovers that water is wet and snow is cold.
I appreciate that they looked at this issue, but talk about spending your time on the wrong thing...
aka Jester, who apparently was once entrusted to Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
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Alana Charen-Teng
Sword of the Saviour 315th Circuit Court
542
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Posted - 2015.03.23 20:32:43 -
[44] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:Presumably CCP means that players who experience PvP combat where they have a chance of winning and inflicting real losses on other other side. Not getting curbstompped by hopelessly better funded, equipped, skilled, and numbed marmite campers.
Kinda like how Tora Bushido is curbstomping you in this thread? |
Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1168
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Posted - 2015.03.23 20:34:09 -
[45] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:So let's see if we can sum up CCP's "Science!" here:
- Gankers would rather kill mining barges, particularly Hulks and Mackinaws (and other ships you can't fly within 15 days);
- Gankers rarely kill Ventures and cruisers (and other ships you can fly within 15 days);
- new players that jump right into BRAVE, RvB, or other "legal" PvP activity enjoy EVE and stay subscribed; and,
- new players that avoid PvP and presumably stick with EVE's horrifically bad PvE don't subscribe.
Have I summed up the "research" adequately? In other news, CCP discovers that water is wet and snow is cold. I appreciate that they looked at this issue, but talk about spending your time on the wrong thing...
Hell. It froze over.
Liked and agreed.
D.
STOP OPPRESSING MEEEEEEE
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Super Perforator
New Order Logistics CODE.
45
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Posted - 2015.03.23 21:06:29 -
[46] - Quote
Revis Owen wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:Nowhere did CCP convey that one sided Marmite curbstompings are in any way good for the game. I got curbstomped by a Marmite fleet once, and I liked it.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/43871586/
I had fun, would do it again.
Stress? Just cool it... CODE. Diplo.
Praise James!
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Ilithyia Borgia
The Conference Elite CODE.
10
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Posted - 2015.03.23 21:25:48 -
[47] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:So let's see if we can sum up CCP's "Science!" here:
- Gankers would rather kill mining barges, particularly Hulks and Mackinaws (and other ships you can't fly within 15 days);
- Gankers rarely kill Ventures and cruisers (and other ships you can fly within 15 days);
- new players that jump right into BRAVE, RvB, or other "legal" PvP activity enjoy EVE and stay subscribed; and,
- new players that avoid PvP and presumably stick with EVE's horrifically bad PvE don't subscribe.
Have I summed up the "research" adequately? In other news, CCP discovers that water is wet and snow is cold. I appreciate that they looked at this issue, but talk about spending your time on the wrong thing...
Nice analysis, but I am not sure you have the evidence to back up your first and second points. As a ganker, point one is probably correct. However, we regularly go after ventures. CODE. recently sponsored a venture killing contest.
Also, you can, in fact, fly the T1 barges within 15 days. So it is likely that there are ample kills of these ships included in the data-set.
I agree with your third point, but you leave out that CCP Rise stated that it is gank targets who are the most likely to stick around. Not sure why, but this is just the opposite of what the carebear apologists argue.
CCP may have defined "new player" too narrowly here. It would be interesting to see if they look at this over different player ages (30, 90, and 180 days would be good)
All this aside, what is important here is that the carebear myths that gankers intentionally target "new players" and this has a negative impact on player retention have been debunked. |
Saeger1737
Deadly Fingertips Absolute Defiance
1073
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Posted - 2015.03.23 21:31:07 -
[48] - Quote
I highly doubt CCP will ignore all the raw data stating marmite isn't worth it. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
218
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Posted - 2015.03.23 21:40:58 -
[49] - Quote
Brave did more for new players in a month of living in Barleguet than you will most likely ever do. You are about KB stats. Brave was about fun. Guess which one is more important to new players?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1169
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Posted - 2015.03.23 22:11:46 -
[50] - Quote
Saeger1737 wrote:I highly doubt CCP will ignore all the raw data stating marmite isn't worth it.
Which would make you what....
Oh right
^^ back ON topic, recovering from agreeing with Ripard and all... I realised it was just the rough jist of what he was saying. 'gankers would rather kill ****' is pretty wrong but the rest of the post was solid imho.
D.
STOP OPPRESSING MEEEEEEE
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Masao Kurata
Z List
190
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Posted - 2015.03.23 22:11:49 -
[51] - Quote
I'd like to share a little (but overly verbose) story from when I started playing EVE in mid 2013, coincidentally just after the release of Odyssey (I'm still pretty pissed about destroyers, BCs and command ships). They might not be 100% accurate, I don't recall every detail, but I think I'm not so senile that the gist won't be approximately right.
Like most gamers, I'd heard of EVE. In discussions of MMOs, how EVE does something always comes up. The main things I knew about EVE was that it had an advanced market and industry system, that it had real time based skill training and it was "the MMO that allows griefing and theft". I was intrigued but wasn't in the market for an MMO and suspected that it'd be grindy like every MMO. I did not know that it was a space game at all, and I don't think this is even very relevant to EVE's appeal; if we were submarine pilots I don't think that would change the game much at all.
One day I was feeling depressed and didn't care that an MMO would probably eat a lot of time and give little back, so I asked a player I know and got a referral link. He's a carebear for what it's worth and his guidance was mechanically helpful but didn't send me down any interesting paths. Most usefully he pointed me towards the EVE University public channel. Now, I'd heard that EVE was dangerous, and when I undocked I was looking around for possible threats, being suspicious of everyone, but nobody attacked me or even tried to bait me and I was disappointed. The universe was not very cold nor harsh, and I didn't know any of the main reasons why, more on that later. Well, to make it short, I spent my trial gawping at the beauty of space, which I still do sometimes, doing tutorials, the soe epic arc and a little exploration. I wasn't really engaged though and I quit.
Now fast forward a while and I heard of something called "Burn Jita", and googled it, and what a fruitful search term that was. By following links I found out about miniluv, the New Order and the Belligerent Undesirables among others. This was the EVE that I'd heard of! I decided to create another trial and train for ganking, since I hadn't really trained any relevant skills on my first character.
Something curious happened when I took this new character through the career agents quickly as a refresher and for some capital. I saw a pilot in a flashy incursus taunting new players and trying to duel them. From my first trial and my recent reading I knew some simple mechanics, so I bought a ship scanner and decided to check his fit. Hmm, dual rep, tech II everything... killing a serious tech II pvp fit was a big deal to me at the time and even the module drops looked tasty to my meagre wallet. I went to pyfa and tried with my weak knowledge to work out a fit that could best him in solo pvp despite a severe difference in SP and skill. I needed a couple of days to train those skills, but I watchlisted him and promised him that I would show him that a new player can win, and he mocked me like he mocked everyone, saying that I would never beat him. He was right. The fight never happened. He didn't log on again.
What I didn't know until some months later was that engaging in PvP of any form with rookies in rookie systems is potentially bannable if the rookie petitions it. It's "griefing". Wait, isn't this the MMO that allows "griefing"? I was annoyed by his mocking, his superiority, but I didn't feel put off EVE, I wanted to teach him a lesson! I would probably have lost, but I would've tried and wonderful things could have come from that above and beyond the thrill. But no, it's "griefing", no fun allowed.
CCP needs to look hard at the data and see that it rejects the theme park. Give the players what they need, not what they say they want and EVE can reach its third decade. |
Mortlake
Somalian Coast Guard Authority
275
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Posted - 2015.03.23 22:19:30 -
[52] - Quote
Ilithyia Borgia wrote:Mortlake wrote:Veers Belvar wrote:
Stock twaddle.
Sadly your sweeping generalizations devalue your arguments, which are weak at best and continue to reinforce the impression most people have of you as being an asshat (see what I did there?). This is a shame as you're obviously an intelligent person. Must disagree - intelligent people modify their positions in the face of contradictory evidence.
You've got me.
On a totally unrelated note, I really like your hair. |
Paranoid Loyd
4331
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Posted - 2015.03.23 22:24:02 -
[53] - Quote
Ilithyia Borgia wrote:Must disagree - intelligent people modify their positions in the face of contradictory evidence. Unless they are just trolling.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Mobadder Thworst
Covert Operations The Volition Cult
122
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Posted - 2015.03.24 00:00:41 -
[54] - Quote
I love it that the data reflects that the PVP influence is good for retention, even when it's chaotic griefing ROFLSTOMPING.
For lack of a better term, I would like to describe this influence as "fun."
I have selected a case study that came to my attention recently. I was searching for an old forum post and ran across a blog post that mentioned my character name.
Naturally, I read it.
It was from a war dec I participated in in 2011 that made such an impression on a character that 3 years later, he chose to write about it.
Ironically, considering the topic as to whether clubbing our noobs like baby seals helps retain them, my corp back then was called "Eve Pilot Help Center."
This blog post was also kinder to me than I deserve. -The Blog Post -My killboard from mashing up Drake Project -Drake Project's KB (when helped) - notice that their kills started here.
Most of the guys I've flown with are a little protective of new players. We laugh about popping their ships, but we usually reimburse if they're new enough... or teach them.
I know they love it because I made a lot of friends doing it.
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Masao Kurata
Z List
194
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Posted - 2015.03.24 00:14:45 -
[55] - Quote
Also this is why we needed a highsec criminal on the CSM so badly. This conclusion is completely obvious to most gankers, wardecs, ninjas etc. It's well known that there's a CCP policy that devs are barred from these activities on their non-CCP alliance characters. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23337
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Posted - 2015.03.24 00:23:34 -
[56] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Also this is why we needed a highsec criminal on the CSM so badly. This conclusion is completely obvious to most gankers, wardecs, ninjas etc. It's well known that there's a CCP policy that devs are barred from these activities on their non-CCP alliance characters. Agreed, I've been saying that for the last couple of years, and fair play to them several people have stepped up to try.
It doesn't even have to be a criminal, tbh. Any candidate with extensive highsec PvP mechanics and execution knowledge would give some sorely needed representation.
I may be a bear but you guys make life interesting, without you my gameplay would be stale and probably coming to an end through boredom.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2538
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Posted - 2015.03.24 00:44:46 -
[57] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote: talk about spending your time on the wrong thing...
Something you're most definitely qualified to talk about.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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Noragen Neirfallas
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
27
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Posted - 2015.03.24 02:20:51 -
[58] - Quote
Noragen had bummed around in eve for a couple of weeks with a friend of his and they had made plans for where to base out of. But the grind had become tedious and our ships were terribly fit so Noragen went out of game to look for a skill plan and a ship fitting guide. However all this came to naught as nothing felt right. Fate had us bump into a player from eve university and Noragen gave the game a few more weeks while his friend quit from not being able to find content. During the lengthy process the subject of eve uni being at war came up. Not really sure what any of this meant and ignoring all advise Noragen only moved some of his assets before joining. The day Noragen joined eve uni he was told that evil marmites would be hunting him and to dock up if he saw any in local. Well thinking how big eve was and that there weren't that many about he moved the last of his assets in his itty 2.
I'm sure you see where this is going
DISASTER Caught on a gate in an unfitted ship with precious assets (meta 0-2 mods and some BPCs) he was killed but having set up the pod saver tab managed to get his pod away. Killed in safe space he was outraged. It wasn't Noragens style to cry on forums or write strongly worded letters to game devs. Noragen was a direct action kinda capsuleer. He got on mumble and attended that weeks tackle 101 and 102 classes and trained for his tackle patron he was given and fit up a few more. He joined every fleet and also managed to get the isk together for a PvP thorax. Before long Noragen was on every anti Marmite (and other wardeccers) fleet eve uni had to offer. He then at little more then a month or so game time got his first kill mail. It was a dirty Marmite. The feeling was incredible he made a 6 month sub that week and started an alt account. Then while trawling for action and patrolling for bad guys while the fleet was in he he found a evil lone marmite 3 jumps from he in a hawk. Noragen screamed out the Intel on com's. Both eyed each other at 0 on the gate for an eternity (maybe 5 seconds) b4 the hawk agressed and Noragen said FC what do I do. Trinity was fc at the time and said use your best judgement we are 3 mins out. Assessing the incoming damage being done Noragen scrammed and dual webbed the little frig. Using a trick given to him by another pilot he used keep at range on the frig and launched his flight of light drones. As soon as Noragen agressed the hawk engaged its other weapons and it was on.
A eve uni ceptor pilot turned up after an eternity and calmly said on com's you got this mate. Kills all yours I'll try for the pod. Noragen less then 2 months old became a permanent subscriber that week (and got his first solo kill). This all sprouted from an avoidable loss mail to wardeccers.
Very entertaining
Much content
So Eve
Such Blogging
http://eve12monthchallenge.blogspot.com.au/
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
555
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Posted - 2015.03.24 04:05:22 -
[59] - Quote
The problem with Eve retention is the fact that new players drift into the game without any sense of direction or opportunity. No one leads them to incursions, L4s, manufacturing, etc... Their main experience is trying to make a mining corp, getting curbstomped by marmite, and quitting the game. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12261
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Posted - 2015.03.24 04:20:34 -
[60] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:The problem with Eve retention is the fact that new players drift into the game without any sense of direction or opportunity. No one leads them to incursions, L4s, manufacturing, etc... Their main experience is trying to make a mining corp, getting curbstomped by marmite, and quitting the game.
Except that the ones who get ganked and curb stomped by Marmite have the highest retention rates.
Which makes the rest of your statement an obvious lie.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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