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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
247
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Posted - 2015.07.31 04:55:44 -
[31] - Quote
Ask the CSM to get that information from CCP.
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Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
33
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Posted - 2015.07.31 07:43:09 -
[32] - Quote
Enom Gwan wrote:Great discussion guys, with some decent and very valid arguments/points.
Yes in terms of technology, it will be bleeding edge and will only affect the top 10% or so. But you're missing the point in that going DX12 opens the portal for Xbox One and a much greater/larger market.
One thing I wanted to expand on, the massive space battles (PVP) would the decreased CPU requirements help alleviate server side processing? Or would there still be a requirement to migrate more servers for these battles?
And just a note, I originally bought EVE Online after seeing it at the London game expo many years ago and thinking wow that game looks absolutely amazing. I immediately went home, bought a new computer (read built a new computer) and downloaded the installer. Been hooked as a casual gamer ever since.
They will make a Direct X12 engine but it will be not before 2020. The market is big enough no need for console fans. Fleet flight lag is a result of the software that runs the solar systems it was written in a modified version of Stackless Python with no multitherading capability and you can not use more then one processor at a time. They tried to fix this by using 5.8GHz battleserver processsors but it is not enough and there is a limit in physics which limits processing speed and there has been no advance in 15years. So the only real performance gain is rewriting this very complicated part of EVE and CCP will do it but they want to do it fture proof so it will take a few more years. There are a few videos on EVE server software and how fleetfights are handeled and there interaction with the database watch them to get a better understanding. The list of possible awesome ideas for EVE which CCP has considered is long but they need time and ISK to make it real. Directx 12 is so far away you should forget about it and be happy when it arrives.
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Osaka Takawaki
Order and Prosperity
1
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Posted - 2015.07.31 10:20:04 -
[33] - Quote
Yes I do agree that DX12 is less important than the core functioning of the game. But that said, CCP are a clever team, no doubt they will deliver on the never ending task of improving the game. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
717
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Posted - 2015.07.31 15:43:51 -
[34] - Quote
Osaka Takawaki wrote:Now that I'm on Windows 10 and seeing how well DX12 performs compared to DX11, I think there's no reason not to implement it. It's not that hard and it ends up giving players better graphics and better performance.
What game(s) are you running coded with DX12? Or are lhese "legacy" dx based games just being backwards compatible in dx12? Oddly enough DX is the only place M$ gives backwards compatibility. I wished they'd do it for .net framework. Really I do....makes server installs fun for older apps.
If not coded in it your gains from Windows 10 are very likely due to the OS. In my readings about windows 10 windows reduced a lot of bloat at startup. IF the NT kernel is not firing up as much process wise that means your CPU to give to other processes. IE...your non dx12 game.
Amazing things happen when you cut out OS bloat. This is why CLI only servers are liked for many backend support scenarios. it kills this process bloat real quickly. Amongst other bloats. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2015.08.02 10:18:56 -
[35] - Quote
DX12 will probably show up over the next few years, cause CCP likes keeping EVE nice and shiny and current. You won't notice the difference between 11 and 12 unless you were to match an underpowered CPU with a powerful GPU or two, at least not right away. OpenGL is, for practical purposes, a mess, because everyone has their own implementation of the library: AMD, NVidia, Intel all have one, plus there are some OpenGL libraries from some more minor ones which random old laptops use, and people do use those. Oh, and when we get into cross platform, there's NVidia/Nouveau and Catalyst/Radeon (closed/open-source) and whatever OS X is using, and they're not perfectly standards-compliant, so not every call does exactly what you think it will and things will look weird. With DirectX, you have one version of the library everyone targets: Microsoft's (or, in open-source world, WineD3D and GalliumNine). Microsoft's is messy because they've got all these exceptions for this or that app to behave itself.
A signature :o
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babyblue
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
1
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Posted - 2015.08.19 19:19:51 -
[36] - Quote
I'm not really necroing this thread...
So, CCP are going to move their rendering engine over to a next generation API (of course they will ... I know how a graphics engineer's mind works). I'm wondering if they're already working with D3D 12 or whether they're waiting in line like the rest of us for the Khronos effort (Vulkan). Or even ... an abstract API capable of being injected with either Metal, Vulkan or D3D 12? Vulkan is the logical choice because D3D 12 is Windows 10 only.
I've seen some pretty fantastic things at SIGGRAPH '15 btw. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2285
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Posted - 2015.08.19 19:52:48 -
[37] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:You are aware that more than half the people who play this game still run on DX9... right?
EVE Fanfest 2012: Nvidia Tessellation Demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7oaz8mWug
this is why we can't have nice things
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
72
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Posted - 2015.08.19 20:24:30 -
[38] - Quote
Osaka Takawaki wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:Osaka Takawaki wrote:Now that I'm on Windows 10 and seeing how well DX12 performs compared to DX11, I think there's no reason not to implement it. It's not that hard and it ends up giving players better graphics and better performance. Not that hard, then please give us a link to the game you upgraded from DX9 or 11 to 12 Performance boost would only be for people with DX12 ready machines/OS, while a large part of EVE players barely have DX11 ready machines Do you have any source for that statistic?
You forgot to link the game YOU updated for DX9 or 11 to 12, since you know its "not that hard"...
I know there were talks about people not being able to play the last time the min requirements changed, its safe to assume they have not all upgraded to DX12 machines. If im not totaly wrong, that is also one of the major reasons we still have DX9 client.
I would be very interested in seeing some up to date statistics on what players can run, but only offical CCP posters can give a statistic that all sides belive. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
739
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Posted - 2015.08.20 01:43:16 -
[39] - Quote
babyblue wrote: Vulkan is the logical choice because D3D 12 is Windows 10 only.
I've seen some pretty fantastic things at SIGGRAPH '15 btw.
A developer has to code for supported versions of OS' out there. Windows 7 or 8 is not end of life yet. Won't be for a while. to get the most income in you need the broadest population to pull from.
Just because windows 10 is free does not mean all with take it up. Even apple does not have 100% acceptance and they started this free update stuff long before M$.
Since on apple, CCP only a few years back made one version of Mac OS the base standard guaranteed supported. They were not trend setters here. Apple was not supporting most the then cut off versions. And it was the accepted safe limit most devs of other applications were doing. When the industry and its even its maker is making cut offs...it makes sense. Apple off the hook for support....so are you.
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babyblue
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 18:43:06 -
[40] - Quote
Nardi wally wrote: I dont understand your post because you can add DX12 without removing DX9 and DX11. What s the problem?
If the engine isn't refactored, I don't see the benefit of having DX12 (or Vulkan, Mantle, Metal). And doing it a new way would make it harder to design an API for all versions. I mean it's unlikely a DirectX 9 engine is threading draw call dispatch. It's more likely that it will be with DirectX 11, but if you're supporting both 9 and 11 you probably aren't using that feature. You don't gain much if any performance from threading the renderer in 11 in any case.
That's why I think Vulkan would be the logical choice assuming AMD, NVIDIA and Intel are all supporting it for Windows 7 and 8. |
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Merrc
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2015.08.24 22:48:08 -
[41] - Quote
Could set up a single station on a test server with a few ship types (all coded in DX12) -people with Windows 10 (and the appropriate cards) log in and have at it.
Also I wonder if large battles would be helped by the 3D Xpoint Optane memory, the faster that single thread gets completed the faster it moves to the next... all interesting food for thought (haha some devs are waiting for their own shiny things |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
306
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Posted - 2015.08.25 02:37:45 -
[42] - Quote
it is a good question but they've barely pushed DX11 intot he current engine. There is no DX12 hardware out there. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
262
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Posted - 2015.08.25 03:35:01 -
[43] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:it is a good question but they've barely pushed DX11 intot he current engine. There is no DX12 hardware out there. Except you're wrong.
AMD R9's and 900-Series Nvidia cards all talk to DX12. |
Jarvis Wellington
47th Space Militia
0
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Posted - 2015.09.11 16:59:32 -
[44] - Quote
I agree that the technology is quite new... However with the benefits of a low level API I would say it's at least worth taking a look at and see if it makes a difference in game (mainly for large battles).
Another thing EVE is getting a little stagnant regarding the way it looks and feels. With games such as Elite: Dangerous and the impending release of Star Citizen, CCP needs to pretty things up or make areas seem more lively. I am talking about having real walking in FULL stations... And having more NPC ships flying about in high security space so it seems like its more populated especially around hubs. They are part of an empire after all... It should feel like it.
If DX12 and its lower overhead allows this, then I am all for it! CCP is/was always in the forefront of new technology and I don't think this should be any different. Windows 10 has been release and is pretty much stable (good job Microsoft for a decent release... for once). NVidia and ATI cards are compatible with DX12 to an extent going back a few generations.
Now I know that 3D Mark is not exactly realistic at times but what I found interesting is the API Overhead Feature Test... It's suppose to compare the overhead of DX11 and DX12. If DX12 makes ANYWHERE NEAR the difference it does in that test, well we are going to be in for a real treat in the future! And I hope that EVE can take advantage of that! |
killer persian
Viziam Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:59:53 -
[45] - Quote
Praise be to you for your wisdom. |
Lyla Blade
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.09.27 16:23:05 -
[46] - Quote
I agree. I think it's time for a upgrade to dx12, think about it the battle of B-R5RB. There would be so much less server lag it will increase the rate of polygons. If eve is using dx9 now I am sure you would see a increase of at least 35% game performance if it swapped to dx12. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
475
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Posted - 2015.09.27 16:56:35 -
[47] - Quote
Enom Gwan wrote:With the impending release of Dust 514 .
That made me chuckle.
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Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
121
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Posted - 2015.10.08 13:47:36 -
[48] - Quote
Lyla Blade wrote:I agree. I think it's time for a upgrade to dx12, think about it the battle of B-R5RB. There would be so much less server lag it will increase the rate of polygons. If eve is using dx9 now I am sure you would see a increase of at least 35% game performance if it swapped to dx12. Would you mind explaining to the class how client side graphics will improve server-side performance? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2320
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Posted - 2015.10.08 14:09:53 -
[49] - Quote
Lyla Blade wrote:I agree. I think it's time for a upgrade to dx12, think about it the battle of B-R5RB. There would be so much less server lag it will increase the rate of polygons. If eve is using dx9 now I am sure you would see a increase of at least 35% game performance if it swapped to dx12.
The delay in battle like B-R5RB has nothing to do with the graphic engine and which graphic API it use. You could re-run the whole battle on a lient computer from 3 millenia after current days and it would still lag because the slowness is server side. No amount of hardware or code optimisation on the client side will ever change that. If the server can't keep up, it will be slow no matter what you are using to display it. |
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