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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
207
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Posted - 2015.03.27 02:01:22 -
[31] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:You seem to be implying that a free pass in general equates/leads to griefing? The act of declaring war provides no benefit to either side, the most competent side wins. Actually you are wrong, neither side can ever win a HS WD because there is NOTHING to fight over or to fight for. All there is in HW WD is potential kills to be gained by players who place value in a kill board. For those who do not care one single bit about a kill board there is nothing to gain from even thinking about fighting so they simply do not.
As to your assurance that the competent side will always win, that makes me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. When you WD a corp full of miners, haulers etc competence is not even a factor. All it takes is to be lucky that those you WD will be stupid enough to go out and play as usual. And even IF the defenders were competent to fight the attackers would simply dock up the moment the odds were not in their favor. In essence they do the same thing that they always complain about their targets doing.
But you do have me intrigued if you have a character that has 50 to 70 million skill points or more in the industrial side of the game and NOTHING in anyway that could support a PvP encounter, just exactly what are they supposed to do to "sort themselves" and be able to go out and fight?
And at it's core that is the major problem with HS WD. On the attacking side you have players who have spent time training skills both character and personal so they can fight effectively who then WD those that have no desire to fight, who have no training either character or personal to fight. And you WD supporters have trouble understanding why these folks do not want to un-dock and fight. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
207
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Posted - 2015.03.27 02:21:06 -
[32] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo, first allow me to apologize to one and all if they believe I am attacking them personally as that is not my intention. I quote other peoples comments as a way of giving context to the comments I write.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote: What I'm looking for is a system that promotes conflict between groups that use the space. I think you've misunderstood this point.. No I did not misunderstand your point. Human nature is that there are those who will fight as long as there is some degree or chance that they can be successful or have something to gain from fighting. This group of players would likely find a well balanced system to be an enjoyable way to spend time in this game.
The other side of human nature is that there are those who will not fight no matter what you do. There is no system you can put in place, and there are no incentives you can offer that will EVER change this. In fact you yourself state that very clearly in the segment below where you indicate that there is little or no chance that your industrial character would ever engage in a fight during a WD as it wold be counter productive.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Donnachadh wrote:People who want to fight will IF they think they have a chance to succeed and it does not matter which side they are on. Untrue. I would never fight with the corp I do industry in precisely because I have no reason to. I am more than capable of calling in friends for assistance and duking it out if that's needed. I do not because it's not only not necessary, but the wrong thing to do. Mercenary corporations are competent groups. If we lose a few ships all that would do is attract more wardecs.
An d so we are still right back at the ages old problem in this game. In a broad sense you have those who want to fight coming to forums like this complaining about those who will not fight and posting and endless string of really bad ideas that would in some way force people to either fight, or sit in a station for the duration of the WD. |
Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
119
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Posted - 2015.03.27 03:20:07 -
[33] - Quote
You know I see a lot of truth on both sides of the argument here. And despite this being an NPC toon, yes, I have an alt in a corp, and have been both on the receiving end and giving end of these wardecs. A year ago when I first put an alt into a corp, it was the run-and-hide-at-wardecs sort. Nowadays that corp isn't exactly elite PvPers or anything, but they hold their own some of the time and do some wardecs of their own.
Moral of that story? Yes, bad corps might need to be squashed via wardecs if they can't handle it, but sometimes they just need time to grow and find their footing. Maybe.
Just remember that above all else, this is a video game. You cannot "force" people to do anything they are trying to do for recreation. So stop trying to beat wardodgers with a stick. Nobody shells out money to be beaten with a stick (well, maybe some exceptionally kinky fellows, but that's another topic). Trying to force anyone to do something they don't want to do, in a sandbox no less, will just result in less subs. So you can't force people to stay in corps, you can't force corps to stay together, you can't force them to come out and fight.
That said, I agree with what Kaarous said. It may be a simple assertion and I have no evidence to support his claim, but I fully believe that PvP is the biggest draw and retention factor of this game. But like a kid getting into a pool, you got to let people ease into it when they're comfortable, and that's different for every person. This is because again, you can't force something in a game.
All of that said, within my experience with my corp alt, it seems like wardecs are damn near perfectly balanced where they are. You can engage, or wait it out. You can drop corp, or duke it out. You can wardec for whatever reason you like or none at all. You can play with alts until the wardec is over, or just not log in at all if you have better things to do. You have a lot of options right now both as an aggressor (or potential aggressor), and as defender. And as a sandbox, I think that's a good thing for this game.
HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
55
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:15:20 -
[34] - Quote
It would be too easy to troll with "no leaving" mechanics. People could invite new players, start a wardec, then ransom them to leave, then ignore them and laugh.
The only thing that doesn't quite work about wardecs is the purpose of them. It would be much more logical as a tool for forcing players to adapt to a changing circumstance rather than an empire wide mechanic. Very simply, costs should scale with the range of declarations. Declaring corps, even many corps, over a tiny range should be very affordable. This could make market hubs highly targetable.
As far as concord is concerned, we're all just street gangs. They and the station owners probably just want as little collateral damage from our activities as possible. Meanwhile, it's much more interesting to force rival gangs out of your neighborhood than to camp them into their cribs. With new structures on the way, the concept of developing or cultivating space becomes even more important.
Forcing other corporations into unfamiliar parts of empire is simply much better content than what we have now. |
Whittorical Quandary
The Asteroid is Depleted
26
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:16:10 -
[35] - Quote
I think part of the appeal of HS wars are that the players there are usually weak, new players and industry players that can't really defend themselves.
There's an amount of pvp players that seem to hate the idea of HS players actually putting up a fight.
"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine."
GÇö Abraham Lincoln
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2376
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:48:49 -
[36] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:All wars needed were assets or collaborative projects worth defending that couldn't be shuffled out of corps. It rather looks like we're about to get them.
except the attackers can use a neut corp that no one knows about for all of them and never have to risk them.
unless of course you make them a requirement before you make an outgoing dec. And then you can make it a 'defender victory' upon their destruction. Mercs suddenly become useful and cant scam defenders \o/
Donnachadh wrote: He has this so close in the first sentence and then falls off the tracks in the second.
So just make competition more desirable. You dont have to go all the way to making everyone want to shoot eachother you can just make some people want to pay blood thirsty pirates to shoot people, and make profit from doing so.
Donnachadh wrote: No the whole purpose of wars in high sec is to make a payment to allow two corps to shoot eachother without Concord intervention plain and simple. I am not saying that is bad, what I am saying is that trying to justify a HS WD as anything else is futile and useless.
FTFY
Donnachadh wrote: Actually you are wrong, neither side can ever win a HS WD because there is NOTHING to fight over or to fight for.
Correct mechanically speaking...
Donnachadh wrote: All there is in HW WD is potential kills to be gained by players who place value in a kill board. For those who do not care one single bit about a kill board there is nothing to gain from even thinking about fighting so they simply do not.
And then wrong... There is actually the potential for anything that can come from the threat or act of violence. ransom, area denial, theft, payment, pillaging...
its a fact that some corps make money from war decs.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Malcaz
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2015.03.27 07:03:51 -
[37] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:WarDec mechanics could be changed to disallow WarDecs against smaller corporations or alliances. Smaller corporations or alliances would still be free to WarDec larger alliances or corporations.
Maybe scale the cost of the wardec to the size. For a 1 man corp to dec a 5000 character alliance, it costs very little, for a 5000 man alliance to dec a 1 man corp costs billions. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
687
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Posted - 2015.03.27 07:20:14 -
[38] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:WarDec mechanics could be changed to disallow WarDecs against smaller corporations or alliances. Smaller corporations or alliances would still be free to WarDec larger alliances or corporations. Wow...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE Eve is already too safe.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Ix Method
Guilty Pleasures
428
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Posted - 2015.03.27 08:57:53 -
[39] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Ix Method wrote:You seem to be implying that a free pass in general equates/leads to griefing? The act of declaring war provides no benefit to either side, the most competent side wins. Actually you are wrong, neither side can ever win a HS WD because there is NOTHING to fight over or to fight for. All there is in HW WD is potential kills to be gained by players who place value in a kill board. For those who do not care one single bit about a kill board there is nothing to gain from even thinking about fighting so they simply do not. As to your assurance that the competent side will always win, that makes me laugh so hard I fell out of my chair. When you WD a corp full of miners, haulers etc competence is not even a factor. Jesus wept, okay if you want to talk like children lets go baby steps.
There is plenty to fight for even if you lack assets in space. If you're going to lose a few bill in income and a couple hundred hours fun as a corp during that week you have ample motivation to make the bad guys go away quickly, particularly given there's always another group sniffing around. The chances of you coming up against a corp that you can't either murder with masses of cheap ships or hire lovely mercs to kill are small and entirely reasonable, as they made the effort to be better than you.
After a war is declared it is an entirely neutral mechanic (at best) for the attacker, no advantages, nothing much of anything really. The most competent/lucky/ally-backed side will win.
There are plenty of indy corps who can and will fight back and then tend to do rather well for themselves long term. There are also those that eschew PVP, live in a quiet corner off the Amarr/Jita/Dodi/Rens route and barring bad luck will never be decced. Then you have those who mine Ice in Otela, talk **** in local or fly bling PVE ships but dock up and whine during wars. These guys will fall apart quickly and that's nothing to do with a mechanic.
There is a basic level of competence required to survive long term as a corp in Eve. It being a sandbox people are welcome to try to prove that wrong and other people are welcome to laugh at them while kicking over their sandcastles.
Competing is a fundamental part of the game and not the reason why wardecs are ****.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1034
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Posted - 2015.03.27 11:14:10 -
[40] - Quote
I struggle to understand the moaning about wardecs to be honest.
Those who are in industrial corps that declare wardecs will fight if need be, if the enemy corp (most likely industrial too) dock up, tear down POS's etc then the wardec achieved it's goal by disrupting the competition.
Those who are in wardec corps who moan when the industrial corps dock up or jump corp tpo avoid it have nobody but themselves to blame. They can see from a corp history how they will behave in war. They also make the mistake of assuming that those who enjoy more PvE related gameplay will think 'Oh a wardec, I'd better undock to be shot to bits then'.
If these corps really want fights why do they not go and live in losec? Guranteed that people will come looking for fights there and it would bring more life to a region that players often maon is too quiet. No need to pay for wardecs for their fights either.
The wardec sysem works fine in the above sense, industrial groups can interfere with each others setups and avoid those that they have no wish to fight. A group simply looking for fights can't complain when another player uses perfectly viable methods to avoid that fight. In PvP terms they are thwarting the goals of the opposition by other means. Guns don't always bring the answer and lowec/null/WH's are there for those who want to fight for space. |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2383
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Posted - 2015.03.28 22:34:34 -
[41] - Quote
ill add that an industrial corp that wants to play a PvP-sandbox MMO will do well to learn to protect or pay someone to protect their assets.
There are ways to play with others without exposing yourself to war decs if you dont want to.
And i also dont think putting a timer on corp hopping would be a problem. You can always drop to a NPC corp at any time, but cooldowns to joining/rejoining/creating player corps arent crippling to a social experience. You still have chatrooms, standings and soon to have social clubs and even social corps.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
165
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Posted - 2015.03.29 00:54:54 -
[42] - Quote
If you want to war then leave hi-sec, go to null because the null bears there say they are bored, and wait for the blob to come.
Then pay rent and post how leet you are for doing pve in null and paying rent. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12331
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Posted - 2015.03.29 00:59:16 -
[43] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:If you want to war then leave hi-sec
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Avellean Oriki
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.03.29 01:19:35 -
[44] - Quote
Malcaz wrote:Maybe scale the cost of the wardec to the size. For a 1 man corp to dec a 5000 character alliance, it costs very little, for a 5000 man alliance to dec a 1 man corp costs billions.
That wouldn't work, you could just drop everyone from corp or make a new corp and wardec who you wanted and then bring everyone in. The initial cost of a wardec should be increased to something that deters people from just wardecing anyone. If you want to wardec a small noob indy/pve corp it should cost you a huge amount of isk to make sure its worth doing. There are to many corps/alliances out there that use wardecs as a tool to grief other people.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:If you want to war then leave hi-sec
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec.
Coming from a alliance that doesn't pvp that's funny. PvP to you is killing a week old miner who cant fight back. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12331
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Posted - 2015.03.29 01:36:52 -
[45] - Quote
Avellean Oriki wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:If you want to war then leave hi-sec
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec. Coming from a alliance that doesn't pvp that's funny. PvP to you is killing a week old miner who cant fight back.
By definition, shooting at other players is PvP. Nevermind that it's a good thing regardless of whom you are firing upon.
But then I don't buy into e-honor, so I don't have a thinking block on that kind of thing.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Madd Adda
51
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Posted - 2015.03.29 02:05:56 -
[46] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:If you want to war then leave hi-sec
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec.
Where is this said? I play for the pve content that clearly exists in EVE and you're saying it's pvp? Now that's funny.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
165
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Posted - 2015.03.29 03:00:39 -
[47] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:If you want to war then leave hi-sec
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec.
No. EVE is a sandbox where pvp and pve happen.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12331
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Posted - 2015.03.29 03:41:51 -
[48] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote: Where is this said?
The FAQ for the game, for a long while.
Quote: I play for the pve content that clearly exists in EVE and you're saying it's pvp? Now that's funny.
If you are effecting the market, you are engaging in PvP. It's only fair that people be able to do something about that.
And you seriously play this game for the PvE? It is, beyond any doubt, the worst in the MMO industry. Freaking Star Trek's PvE is more fun, and that game is quite literally pathetic.
Syn Shi wrote:No. EVE is a sandbox where pvp and pve happen.
Wrong. Unless you're living off of the ammo drops from the rats you kill, everything you do is PvP to some extent. This is a PvP game at it's core, and PvP belongs everywhere, whether people like you like or not.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Madd Adda
51
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Posted - 2015.03.29 03:54:06 -
[49] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The FAQ for the game, for a long while.
Where is this FAQ? i want to read it.
Quote: If you are effecting the market, you are engaging in PvP. It's only fair that people be able to do something about that.
And you seriously play this game for the PvE? It is, beyond any doubt, the worst in the MMO industry. Freaking Star Trek's PvE is more fun, and that game is quite literally pathetic.
Effecting the market is now PVP? that's deep bro. I find the PVE here pretty good imo, especially the wormhole sites. I don't care for industry standards, since i do play other games for that satisfaction. Personally though, PVP in eve is bland in comparison to other PVP centric games.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1986
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Posted - 2015.03.29 04:39:19 -
[50] - Quote
The wardec mechanic does not need more power. It is already a super powerful mechanic. As long as there is a reason for defenders to care. In fact once there is a reason to care Wardecs are almost too powerful, any more power and it will be a serious griefing tool against anyone with a reason to defend stuff. And certain groups will abuse it in that way if you give them the power.
Reasons to care about undocking are what is needed. Of course, since Null people dock up at a single neutral in local most of the time, I find it funny how they abuse high sec players who have to put up with knowing one of those hundred people in local will be a spy for the wardec corp/alliance to hunt their targets with. But yea, reasons to care about undocking, in Null as well. |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2384
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Posted - 2015.03.29 06:01:01 -
[51] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:If you want to war then leave hi-sec
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec. Where is this said? I play for the pve content that clearly exists in EVE and you're saying it's pvp? Now that's funny.
Its in the eve faq.
This is a PvP game at its core. Blowing eachother up is core gameplay. You don't have to want to shoot others but others can shoot you.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Lugh Crow-Slave
948
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Posted - 2015.03.29 06:45:30 -
[52] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:WarDec mechanics could be changed to disallow WarDecs against smaller corporations or alliances. Smaller corporations or alliances would still be free to WarDec larger alliances or corporations.
this is just dumb
but the OPs ideas aren't any better thought out
the solution to corp hopping simply encourages people not to log in any more
and the problem with the attacker retracting the war is not much of an issue having to wait 24hrs to swap from defender to attacker isn't that much
the problem with war decs is not just with wardecs but how high sec works in general odds are one group has absolutely no risk in the fight (normally the attacker) while the ones that have something to lose have very little to gain by not just dropping corp
this issue is also one of the problems with getting people out of NPC corps or one man corps as again for many the only thing being in a corp does is add risk with no reward
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Madd Adda
52
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Posted - 2015.03.29 06:46:24 -
[53] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Madd Adda wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:If you want to war then leave hi-sec
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec. Where is this said? I play for the pve content that clearly exists in EVE and you're saying it's pvp? Now that's funny. Its in the eve faq. This is a PvP game at its core. Blowing eachother up is core gameplay. You don't have to want to shoot others but others can shoot you. And PvP is any form of competition which is another part of core gameplay for eve. Look it up bro.
again, where is this FAQ?
pvp to me conjures images of fighting in the sense of physical combat, but yes i suppose market related activities can be pvp technically. That would make every game PVP so long as there is an economy or any type of (possible) competition in every conceivable sense.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
760
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Posted - 2015.03.29 09:01:20 -
[54] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:And PvP is any form of competition which is another part of core gameplay for eve. Look it up bro. again, where is this FAQ?
The New Pilot FAQ is here: http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/EVE-Online-New-Pilot-FAQ.pdf
Pay particular attention to section 5 (5.2-5.3) and section 7 which starts:
CCP wrote:The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.
Madd Adda wrote:pvp to me conjures images of fighting in the sense of physical combat, but yes i suppose market related activities can be pvp technically. That would make every game PVP so long as there is an economy or any type of (possible) competition in every conceivable sense. Well PVP means player vs. player. Practically everything you do in the sandbox is against other players: you only make a profit at industry because your operation is more efficient or you sell your PvE drops because you undercut someone else on the market and so on. In fact, the very name of the game comes from Everyone vs. Everyone and the core concept is a single universe where all the player battle each other for power and resources.
Eve is a PvP game. The industrial portion of the game is meaningless unless players are exploding things. However industry is also essential as without it we would all be shooting each other in only rookie ships. The two are intertwined which is why there needs to be away for direct PvP action to influence industrial actions just as industry influences ship PvP. Wardecs in some form are essential for this; players cannot be allowed to pursue industrial activities insulated from the sandbox or the whole thing comes tumbling down.
There are ways to play Eve without ever engaging in ship-to-ship combat with another player - making friends to provide your protection is the most obvious but there are others. However, there cannot, and should not be a way to play where you can opt-out of the possibility of ship combat being forced on you. If you do that, it ain't a sandbox anymore.
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
57
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Posted - 2015.03.29 09:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
This topic again...
Ok, here's my contribution (as an Indy Hisec Corp CEO):
1. NPC corp means you are at war with the State FW forces of your opposing state. YES, even as a newbro. You will find refuge in the rookie systems. Otherwise you are under the bullseye of the opposing state. No more 'free pass' for NPC neutrals (cuz you're all alt-spies anyway)
2. If you roll your corp (as CEO), you cannot re-roll or join a corp for a week. Closing your Corp means you failed, and should suffer the penalty for it. Exception to the rule if you join the corp/alliance that wardecced you, which you can do immediately.
3. Wardec fee should go to the defender if they destroy more isk than the attacker. Put some incentive in the defender game.
4. No penalty to members leaving corp during a wardec (current mechanics).
---
I don't think the wardec mechanics are broken. There has to be a balance between large/small, rich/poor. As in most things, you had better do your homework and research on your targets. Some will fight, some will even bring friends. Others won't. Just don't complain about it. Adapt and move on. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
524
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Posted - 2015.03.29 09:31:19 -
[56] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:No I did not misunderstand your point. Human nature is that there are those who will fight as long as there is some degree or chance that they can be successful or have something to gain from fighting. This group of players would likely find a well balanced system to be an enjoyable way to spend time in this game.
The other side of human nature is that there are those who will not fight no matter what you do. There is no system you can put in place, and there are no incentives you can offer that will EVER change this. In fact you yourself state that very clearly in the segment below where you indicate that there is little or no chance that your industrial character would ever engage in a fight during a WD as it wold be counter productive. This is the kind of player I'd hope to target with a change to corps assets and wardecs. Expanding the usefulness of assets in space for players that are willing to engage in hostilities for a measurable advantage to their operations. Make it productive to fight. I'll break down my views on two structures to give you an idea of what I mean.
Highsec starbases are hit and miss. The fuel costs make it difficult to churn out a profit unless you're manufacturing in niche T2 markets. The removal of station slots further compounded the lack of use for a POS. If they removed "system index" charges from starbases and reduced fuel costs they might be better conflict drivers.
POCOs conversely are in a good place right now. Owning your own POCO in highsec is the only way to make ISK through planetary reactions (shipping commodities down to planets, creating higher tier commodities, shipping them back to the market). If you do not own the POCO, the tax rates generally make it impossible to churn out a profit. There is a measurable gain in owning and defending a POCO.
The important difference between the two is that POCOs allow you to do something you cannot profitably do without it (planetary reactions). That's a good place to start with new assets for corporations. An asset should not only reduce costs in a way that can be negated by rolling more alts. It should also provide benefits that cannot be obtained without it.
There are all our dominion
Bookmarks in overview ~ Fleet improvements
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Lugh Crow-Slave
949
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Posted - 2015.03.29 09:39:59 -
[57] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Donnachadh wrote:No I did not misunderstand your point. Human nature is that there are those who will fight as long as there is some degree or chance that they can be successful or have something to gain from fighting. This group of players would likely find a well balanced system to be an enjoyable way to spend time in this game.
The other side of human nature is that there are those who will not fight no matter what you do. There is no system you can put in place, and there are no incentives you can offer that will EVER change this. In fact you yourself state that very clearly in the segment below where you indicate that there is little or no chance that your industrial character would ever engage in a fight during a WD as it wold be counter productive. This is the kind of player I'd hope to target with a change to corps assets and wardecs. Expanding the usefulness of assets in space for players that are willing to engage in hostilities for a measurable advantage to their operations. Make it productive to fight. I'll break down my views on two structures to give you an idea of what I mean. Highsec starbases are hit and miss. The fuel costs make it difficult to churn out a profit unless you're manufacturing in niche T2 markets. The removal of station slots further compounded the lack of use for a POS. If they removed "system index" charges from starbases and reduced fuel costs they might be better conflict drivers. POCOs conversely are in a good place right now. Owning your own POCO in highsec is the only way to make ISK through planetary reactions (shipping commodities down to planets, creating higher tier commodities, shipping them back to the market). If you do not own the POCO, the tax rates generally make it impossible to churn out a profit. There is a measurable gain in owning and defending a POCO. The important difference between the two is that POCOs allow you to do something you cannot profitably do without it (planetary reactions). That's a good place to start with new assets for corporations. An asset should not only reduce costs in a way that can be negated by rolling more alts. It should also provide benefits that cannot be obtained without it.
but its not normally the indy defenders that have nothing to lose they time they spend docked up is already a huge loss of isk
the main problem is attackers have nothing to lose and can just sit on station and dock up if a fight goes south or just up ans switch to softer targets
the reason pilots don't normally undock to fight back is not because they aren't loosing anything by not doing it but because they have nothing to gain by fighting back.
even if they do manage to kill a war target all they have gained is a worthless kill mail
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
980
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Posted - 2015.03.29 10:06:44 -
[58] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: the main problem is attackers have nothing to lose and can just sit on station and dock up if a fight goes south or just up ans switch to softer targets
This.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: the reason pilots don't normally undock to fight back is not because they aren't loosing anything by not doing it but because they have nothing to gain by fighting back.
even if they do manage to kill a war target all they have gained is a worthless kill mail
Aaaaand THIS.
It's not a popular fact though, a lot of people seem to think the defenders should just undock and be shot like fowl on a hunt and if they don't then eve is better without them.
Until the attackers have a stake in the game, the ONLY intelligent play....is not to play. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
949
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Posted - 2015.03.29 10:17:54 -
[59] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: the main problem is attackers have nothing to lose and can just sit on station and dock up if a fight goes south or just up ans switch to softer targets
This. Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: the reason pilots don't normally undock to fight back is not because they aren't loosing anything by not doing it but because they have nothing to gain by fighting back.
even if they do manage to kill a war target all they have gained is a worthless kill mail
Aaaaand THIS. It's not a popular fact though, a lot of people seem to think the defenders should just undock and be shot like fowl on a hunt and if they don't then eve is better without them. Until the attackers have a stake in the game, the ONLY intelligent play....is not to play.
well no the intelligent play is just to drop corp if it starts affecting your income and to more or less ignore it and watch local if its not to much of a threat.
but until i can gain something(or at least effectively harm my aggressor) there is no reason for me to undock and shoot his ships
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
980
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Posted - 2015.03.29 10:24:37 -
[60] - Quote
Yeah there are a couple of ways to "not play" that game. But the point remains the same as you said :) |
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