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Komatose
High Sec Lions
63
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Posted - 2015.03.26 11:48:32 -
[1] - Quote
Long time lurker, rare poster here. :)
Anyway, me and my better half were at dinner talking eve (as we do) and discussing markets, and manufacturing and trading (As we do lately) and the question came up, what makes a hub, a hub?
And let me elaborate:
In all the systems, in all of eve, the Major hubs came about, Jita, Amarr et al.
How did this happen?
Location to agents? Location to borders? Dumb luck?
I ask this because we discussed it and while he and I played many online games, eve is an enigma, on Wow, EQ, and many others you have several servers, eve you have one. (more depending on your viewpoint) and across most of the other games we played the 'gathering place' or 'market place' was the same on all servers, it just 'became that way'
Was it the same for eve? Or was there some underlieing cause? Did many years ago people just say "Heck with it, lets all stock THIS place."
There is no real goal to this conversation beyond conversation and discussion, perhaps somthing will come of it, perhaps not.
So, what do YOU think makes a hub a hub here in eve? Beyond basic 'mission hubs' of supply and demand, what turned the big ones into what they are, and can that 'magic' happen again in other stations do you think or is it set in stone now? |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
270
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Posted - 2015.03.26 13:55:19 -
[2] - Quote
groups of traders that studied the maps seeing regional relations of the systems i'd say. Although jita didn't exist until a trade station was blown up in yulai which was the jita of past ages with CCP not thinking that a group of players would attack a NPC station.
some minor trade hubs come about due to the agents and the population running missions.
its the same as some cities develop across the countries really from the way I see some of the bottle-neck routes between regions, but lots of regions can lead to a place.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Komatose
High Sec Lions
63
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Posted - 2015.03.26 23:01:51 -
[3] - Quote
So you feel that the ones we have are all we will ever have then?
I feel that there are places that could use more, but at the same time, I have heard many people complain about how there is no (Paraphrasing here) "REal way for anyone new to enter into trading or industry" I have found a couple profitable things but as of yet I am not making billions with it (Not really focusing 100% either though) But I can see how new traders feel overwhelmed when they look at the big hubs, and then try to sell somewhere else, they get messed up by the 'numbers game' seeing millions of one item being sold in one region and only hundreds or thousands in another.
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LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
33
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Posted - 2015.03.26 23:36:14 -
[4] - Quote
If I remember, Hubs formed because: * Usually, there were 1 or more high paying l4 mission agents in system and perhaps many other agents in nearby systems. Mission runners apparently aren't willing to spend as much time traveling to save isk, and they provide a steady flow of isk to help jumpstart a market. * Each faction seems to have at least 1 major hub catering to its nearby highsec regions, so the faction hub usually is in a spot that isn't too many jumps away from the highly populated systems. * You'll also find the faction hub along main transport paths...autopilot will send you through dodixie when frequently traversing much of Gallente space, Rens isn't that far off the main path through Mimitar space, etc. * Main hubs aren't close to each other...rens is horribly far from jita, and about equally distant from Amarr and Dodixie.
That said, I think we are seeing hubs consolidating further because for whatever reason, hauling is becoming too easy. Minihubs like Oursulert are withering on the vine, other possible mini hubs like jel and fricoure/vittenyn don't seem to get any real momentum. Everyone seems to be agreeing that 4 major hubs is all that is needed from what I can tell.
Honestly, other than undocking in Hek or traveling through Uedama, there isn't that much risk moving cargo assuming one's ship is reasonably fit and not carrying too high of a value... |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5073
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Posted - 2015.03.27 00:11:07 -
[5] - Quote
yulai existed, due to the 'super highway' gates, which linked it to all the empires. These were removed, and yulai became a backwater.
Jita became the hub we know, because: A: Caldari are /really/ popular B: It's close to the intersection of 3 regions, making region trade arbitrage easier. C: It used to have decent agents. (Agents used to have, as well as the level for missions, a quality rating)
When it started getting really popular, the agents were removed. By that time, it was locked in.
The other hubs emerged for similar reasons.
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4914
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Posted - 2015.03.27 01:04:07 -
[6] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:yulai existed, due to the 'super highway' gates, which linked it to all the empires. These were removed, and yulai became a backwater.
Jita became the hub we know, because: A: Caldari are /really/ popular B: It's close to the intersection of 3 regions, making region trade arbitrage easier. C: It used to have decent agents. (Agents used to have, as well as the level for missions, a quality rating)
When it started getting really popular, the agents were removed. By that time, it was locked in.
The other hubs emerged for similar reasons.
Dodixie is highly connected (similar to B above) and also had (and still has) a level 4 agent, which pushed it to prominence over alternative possible sites like Vylade or Eglennaert that are comparably connected.
Nowadays, however, the key factor in hub inertia is the logistical effort required to stock a future hub with between two and twenty trillion ISK worth of goods, including stacks of tens/hundreds of billions of units of minerals, tens of millions of units of PI products, tens of thousands of ships and millions of modules.
If you have a few trillion to your name, why not try and establish a new hub?
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Komatose
High Sec Lions
63
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Posted - 2015.03.27 01:59:03 -
[7] - Quote
And I think that is part of the problem, wich is interesting because fixing the problem would create 'problems' for market people. For example:
If you made hauling harder/more risky, then the haulers lose money and thats a 'problem' for them. But being this easy kind of makes it so that there is a 'walmart in every town' and the 'little guys' get squashed by that.
So, what do you think is the solution? Some traders supplying the mini-hubs at reasonable prices? Or somthing else?
I have seen serious gouging just to save 6 jumps, in upwards of a 300-400% markup and people PAYING IT. Steadily, wich is odd too. |
Komatose
High Sec Lions
63
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Posted - 2015.03.27 02:08:11 -
[8] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:yulai existed, due to the 'super highway' gates, which linked it to all the empires. These were removed, and yulai became a backwater.
Jita became the hub we know, because: A: Caldari are /really/ popular B: It's close to the intersection of 3 regions, making region trade arbitrage easier. C: It used to have decent agents. (Agents used to have, as well as the level for missions, a quality rating)
When it started getting really popular, the agents were removed. By that time, it was locked in.
The other hubs emerged for similar reasons. Dodixie is highly connected (similar to B above) and also had (and still has) a level 4 agent, which pushed it to prominence over alternative possible sites like Vylade or Eglennaert that are comparably connected. Nowadays, however, the key factor in hub inertia is the logistical effort required to stock a future hub with between two and twenty trillion ISK worth of goods, including stacks of tens/hundreds of billions of units of minerals, tens of millions of units of PI products, tens of thousands of ships and millions of modules. If you have a few trillion to your name, why not try and establish a new hub?
Ill get right on that.
But seriously it is just a discussion on things another hub would be a effort for more than just one pilot.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4914
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Posted - 2015.03.27 03:10:30 -
[9] - Quote
Komatose wrote:
Ill get right on that.
But seriously it is just a discussion on things another hub would be a effort for more than just one pilot.
One person can't do all the *labor* involved in making a new hub themself, but noone can get to a trillion ISK without getting rich from the effort of other players.
One multi-trillionaire can, however, definitely pay others to do all of the necessary work.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
36
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Posted - 2015.03.27 03:13:16 -
[10] - Quote
There isn't enough new pilots to establish a new hub today, as Jita-Amarr is ingrained deep within the community, so much so it becomes a self-perpetuating mechanism.
To create a new major place of trade you need untainted minds, otherwise it will revert back to square one. You have to also remember that people generally value their time and value their money - a competitive hub would have to consistently post prices lower than in Jita-Amarr on high volume, because for the majority of Eve, a few 100,000 ISK difference makes... all the difference where to shop.
Another thing to consider is that the other hubs, such as Rens, Hek and Dodixie are all cut off from Jita-Amarr vein by Low Security space. if one has the route planner set to Shortest/Default, which again the majority of Eve will have.
Tama is between Jita & Dodixie, Rancer lies en route from Hek to Jita, while Amarr is separated by Huola/The Bleak Lands from Rens, Hek & Dodixie.
Using the High Sec setting adds five systems to Amarr-Hek route and nine jumps to Amarr-Rens. |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
762
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Posted - 2015.03.27 05:16:02 -
[11] - Quote
'T is so much to be a market hub, that it only is so by being so. |
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
113
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Posted - 2015.03.27 10:29:16 -
[12] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Dodixie is highly connected (similar to B above) and also had (and still has) a level 4 agent, which pushed it to prominence over alternative possible sites like Vylade or Eglennaert that are comparably connected.
To add to that, Dodixie - along with Jita, is an example of how hubs moved over time. When I started playing back in 2006, Oursulaert was the hub in the Gallente Federation. Most likely because it has lots of stations and therefore (decent) agents. Not sure what caused the migration to Dodi later on (wasn't into trading at that time). There was even a direct connection between Aunia (good lvl 3 agent there, providing the path to the good lvl 4 agents in Auvergene and Dodixie), which was removed later on.
But I doub that without heavy interference from CCP any of the current major factional hub locations (Amarr, Rens, Dodixie, Jita) will ever be replaced by another one due to their massive momentum. IMHO there's just too much logistical investment from the major market players to ever make that happen "by will".
EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager.
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Komatose
High Sec Lions
63
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Posted - 2015.03.27 10:43:14 -
[13] - Quote
Hel O'Ween wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Dodixie is highly connected (similar to B above) and also had (and still has) a level 4 agent, which pushed it to prominence over alternative possible sites like Vylade or Eglennaert that are comparably connected.
To add to that, Dodixie - along with Jita, is an example of how hubs moved over time. When I started playing back in 2006, Oursulaert was the hub in the Gallente Federation. Most likely because it has lots of stations and therefore (decent) agents. Not sure what caused the migration to Dodi later on (wasn't into trading at that time). There was even a direct connection between Aunia ( good lvl 3 agent there, providing the path to the good lvl 4 agents in Auvergene and Dodixie), which was removed later on. But I doub that without heavy interference from CCP any of the current major factional hub locations (Amarr, Rens, Dodixie, Jita) will ever be replaced by another one due to their massive momentum. IMHO there's just too much logistical investment from the major market players to ever make that happen "by will".
I was more talking about 'new' or 'upcoming' hubs, or even mini hubs, at one point a few years back there was talk of trying to make another but I think it stopped before it started for whatever reason. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4916
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Posted - 2015.03.27 11:10:45 -
[14] - Quote
Hel O'Ween wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Dodixie is highly connected (similar to B above) and also had (and still has) a level 4 agent, which pushed it to prominence over alternative possible sites like Vylade or Eglennaert that are comparably connected.
To add to that, Dodixie - along with Jita, is an example of how hubs moved over time. When I started playing back in 2006, Oursulaert was the hub in the Gallente Federation. Most likely because it has lots of stations and therefore (decent) agents. Not sure what caused the migration to Dodi later on (wasn't into trading at that time). There was even a direct connection between Aunia ( good lvl 3 agent there, providing the path to the good lvl 4 agents in Auvergene and Dodixie), which was removed later on. But I doub that without heavy interference from CCP any of the current major factional hub locations (Amarr, Rens, Dodixie, Jita) will ever be replaced by another one due to their massive momentum. IMHO there's just too much logistical investment from the major market players to ever make that happen "by will".
Very determined players could move a hub, but it would likely take the intervention of a determined null block.
A group like N3, if they had the desire, could restock Oursulaert, then lay serious round-the-clock siege to Dodixie using suicide thrashers (probably only need ten thousand of them, so a 40b investment), and shooting everyone not blue to them. They'd set their own freighters blue and buy up cheap stuff in Dodi as sales dried up.
Trade would move.
But, the groups capable of doing that aren't currently interested in doing so.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Sequester Risalo
Significant Others
91
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Posted - 2015.03.27 13:01:13 -
[15] - Quote
With the incoming changes to player owned structures everyone is free to build and stock a new market hub even in highsec and attract players by a low tax rate. Good luck with that. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
274
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Posted - 2015.03.27 14:12:55 -
[16] - Quote
other regions like tash-murkon do suffer because why should people establish a market, you have players that are to lazy I got banned from my incursion community chat for advertising the caldari event this weekend after 1 post, it seems they don't want to do anything past shooting red crosses. I haven't amassed a lot of wealth due to my age and skills, as I get enough for a plex and go off and do numerous other things 'if a council was established for this and enough got involved you could make some new hub or hubs I suppose
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
37
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Posted - 2015.03.27 15:24:23 -
[17] - Quote
Sequester Risalo wrote:With the incoming changes to player owned structures everyone is free to build and stock a new market hub even in highsec and attract players by a low tax rate. Good luck with that.
A transaction tax lower than Jita 4-4 would do magic. |
adriaans
Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
20
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Posted - 2015.03.27 15:57:20 -
[18] - Quote
On the topic of tradehubs, can someone explain how/why Rens came about? I have lived in Minmatar space for several years now and Rens still doesn't make any sense to me...(From pvp, pve, trading, and manufacturing sides) there are so many better places. Also unlike most other hubs Rens is NOT in the station that has manufacturing slots. It is too far away from the best mission agents, it is likewise too far from low sec to quickly go and get a missing module etc. The only thing it -might- have going for it is that it is closer to Derelik and Devoid regions, but those are rather dead regions.
----True oldschool solo pvp'er----
My latest vid: Insanity IV
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
37
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Posted - 2015.03.27 16:44:14 -
[19] - Quote
Tradition. As to how it started, probably a combination of agents, access to lowsec and other facilities, which since have received changes. No manufacturing stations in Rens? That's p bad. |
Oriella Trikassi
Trikassi Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2015.03.27 20:10:57 -
[20] - Quote
Back then being Intaki I started my trading career at Oursulaert because that was where my advanced agent was. Last I heard she got caught fencing dodgy TVs and holoreels and was demoted, but that's another story... I assumed others did so for the same reason.
Anyway I needed to set up a depot in the Caldari State to, um, never you mind and so picked a good central location. As it turned out I was one jump out - I picked Sobaseki and later when the highway was removed the market picked Jita.
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Komatose
High Sec Lions
63
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Posted - 2015.03.27 23:30:59 -
[21] - Quote
Sequester Risalo wrote:With the incoming changes to player owned structures everyone is free to build and stock a new market hub even in highsec and attract players by a low tax rate. Good luck with that.
Thats just going to be another way for people to make money if they have a big enough corp. For single/small groups it wont do much. If you put up a place with a good / cheap tax rate, someone will come, pop it, and take it like they did with Poco's. Any poco worth a **** is taken by a big corp because no one can stop them. (Sweeping generalisation, but for the most part true) Unless they find a way for the 'little guy' to be able to defend himself its not going to change, rich = richer all that. :) |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4920
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Posted - 2015.03.28 00:56:06 -
[22] - Quote
Sequester Risalo wrote:With the incoming changes to player owned structures everyone is free to build and stock a new market hub even in highsec and attract players by a low tax rate. Good luck with that.
Depends upon the consequences of station destruction.
There's thirty trillion on sell orders in Jita now, but it would not surprise me if there's assets in the station worth a quadrillion or more.
I would be stunned if there are fewer than a trillion units of Trit in hangars there for one, or fewer than a hundred thousand battleship hulls or a quarter million battlecruiser hulls from Tiericide.
Would you move that to a destructible station?
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Oxide Ammar
197
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Posted - 2015.03.28 07:48:33 -
[23] - Quote
NPC station destruction in hisec won't happen for million reasons, from the looks of CCP inputs in the Fanfest and forums they won't do such thing, even in lowsec but they were targeting nullsec audience.
Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4922
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Posted - 2015.03.28 08:39:02 -
[24] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:NPC station destruction in hisec won't happen for million reasons, from the looks of CCP inputs in the Fanfest and forums they won't do such thing, even in lowsec but they were targeting nullsec audience.
I was talking to player-built station (market hub station) destruction, if hubs are placeable in highsec.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Komatose
High Sec Lions
63
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Posted - 2015.03.28 10:18:36 -
[25] - Quote
Yeah,
I only see this whole 'station placing' thing helping 'the big guys' because at best they get loot, at worst they get to blow somthing up and suck up carebear tears :D |
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
113
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Posted - 2015.03.29 17:41:02 -
[26] - Quote
adriaans wrote:On the topic of tradehubs, can someone explain how/why Rens came about? I have lived in Minmatar space for several years now and Rens still doesn't make any sense to me...(From pvp, pve, trading, and manufacturing sides) there are so many better places. Also unlike most other hubs Rens is NOT in the station that has manufacturing slots. It is too far away from the best mission agents, it is likewise too far from low sec to quickly go and get a missing module etc. The only thing it -might- have going for it is that it is closer to Derelik and Devoid regions, but those are rather dead regions.
I can't answer your question, but the Republic is a bit odd in regards to trade hubs, as it's the only of the 4 empires to feature two more or less equal hubs: Rens and Hek.
EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager.
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capn Hicks
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
8
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Posted - 2015.03.29 22:41:05 -
[27] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Sequester Risalo wrote:With the incoming changes to player owned structures everyone is free to build and stock a new market hub even in highsec and attract players by a low tax rate. Good luck with that. Depends upon the consequences of station destruction. There's thirty trillion on sell orders in Jita now, but it would not surprise me if there's assets in the station worth a quadrillion or more. I would be stunned if there are fewer than a trillion units of Trit in hangars there for one, or fewer than a hundred thousand battleship hulls or a quarter million battlecruiser hulls from Tiericide. Would you move that to a destructible station?
There actually was a booming trade hub in nullsec in GE-8JV, it had almost as much traffic as the top highsec hubs... but PL came and hit it, causing importers/sellers to pack things up and get to the nearest highsec station.
Market confidence was lost and the once booming market place is now bone dry.
So yeah even if a player owned market hub had 0 taxes, the issue of the station suddenly exploding is gonna keep traders in Jita |
Halatosi
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.03.30 00:01:17 -
[28] - Quote
capn Hicks wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Sequester Risalo wrote:With the incoming changes to player owned structures everyone is free to build and stock a new market hub even in highsec and attract players by a low tax rate. Good luck with that. Depends upon the consequences of station destruction. There's thirty trillion on sell orders in Jita now, but it would not surprise me if there's assets in the station worth a quadrillion or more. I would be stunned if there are fewer than a trillion units of Trit in hangars there for one, or fewer than a hundred thousand battleship hulls or a quarter million battlecruiser hulls from Tiericide. Would you move that to a destructible station? There actually was a booming trade hub in nullsec in GE-8JV, it had almost as much traffic as the top highsec hubs... but PL came and hit it, causing importers/sellers to pack things up and get to the nearest highsec station. Market confidence was lost and the once booming market place is now bone dry. So yeah even if a player owned market hub had 0 taxes, the issue of the station suddenly exploding is gonna keep traders in Jita
+1
I would drop the money to put down a POS and a non or near non existant tax rate, but the simple fact that any corp/alliance that felt like it could come take it down prevents me from wanting to. Why try when it will end like Poco's? Most if not all 'good' ones go to he with the most firepower. Perhaps instead ones that get put up could be bought and sold like real-estate, and if the account for the 'owner' lapses for more than X time, it goes up for 'auction' by Concord.
It would also adress a problem, ISK sinks, Becausethe money in the auction goes to concord its removed from game. :)
Just a idea. |
Naitrayera
Arthashastra
10
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Posted - 2015.03.30 17:18:22 -
[29] - Quote
To throw in my 1 unit of pyerite.... I am the "little guy" the OP mentiones and i would like to report that its going prety well for me in one of large hubs and neighbouring regions that i treat like "personal hubs" ( like the system and connection i set up orders there and they get full )... If someone richer would make and effort i thing Baviasi could blossom into mini-hub over time, but thats just me.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
42
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Posted - 2015.03.30 18:52:08 -
[30] - Quote
Naitrayera wrote: If someone richer would make and effort i thing Baviasi could blossom into mini-hub over time, but thats just me.
It's just you. |
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