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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.10.23 20:57:00 -
[121]
These are exactly the kinds of changes I wanted to see, and I'm an EWARist. \o/
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Slarivet
Caldari Distant Star Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.23 21:20:00 -
[122]
I have an idea, somewhat similar to apparently how things used to be before the change to dice-roll jamming. (Confused the @#$% out of me when I first tried to understand how ECM worked from the module info, lol.)
It seems like it might be more consistent across the game if jamming were done somewhat along the line of warp scrambling. A multispec jammer will take out (one or two, not sure which would work best) targeting "slots" in any type of ship. A racial jammer will take out (1 or 2? again, don't know which number would be best) more slots in the ship of that type than the multispec.
ECCM would work like a WC stab, in terms of protecting one or two target slots per module. Should more jammers be applied to the ship than the ship has targeting slots, the redundancy of the jammers will begin to undo the ECCM target protection. (This would probably have the effect of making people really, really want to maximize how many targets they can lock in their ship with skills.)
This might screw up a couple skills implemented in the game or some other aspect I haven't encountered (please reply and tell me), but it seems like a fairly simple and straightforward means of going about it.
(On a vaguely unrelated note, regarding other posts about tracking disruptors, there is a strange lack of such a defensive mod against missiles, especially considering the "fire while jammed" fof capability that is already a missiles only advantage.)
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Thor Payne
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.23 21:41:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Zarthanon Looks sexy TBH... yeah baby, YEAH!
Originally by: Fragm/thedragoon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- So we know what we are doing YES do we expect this to be all over in 2 weeks NO are we going to see it through to the end YES ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fragm...the good ole days :-)
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Kaell Meynn
Divergence
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Posted - 2006.10.23 22:26:00 -
[124]
What about us non-caldari pilots who maxed ECM and use it on non-caldari ships? Can we get the SPs back? Or will 1 lowslot make us equal in strength to a blackbird again? If not, this sounds like a boost to Caldari, and a nerf of everyone else who trained ECM under the current rules.
My ECM ships which I put millions of SPs into ECM for include...
Helios Celestis (damps suck, I use ECM( Dominix
Alternatively, give these 3 ships ECM boost as well.
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Mangonis Venator
Minmatar For Matari By Matari
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Posted - 2006.10.23 23:17:00 -
[125]
Problem with the propesed change is it does not get rid of the two biggest gripes on these boards:
1) ECM is chance based, where neither 100% nor 0% is achievable.
2) 1 Mid slot module can render every targetable module of another ship useless for 20+ seconds.
In order to fix the above, the formula should be changed to where the Jamming Strength v Sensor Strength gives a number which equates to jamming duration and/or effectiveness or lack thereof.
Now personally, I think EW ships should get a role bonus of 94-99% reduction in grid/cpu fitting requirements to EW modules. Note I said EW not ECM, now I realize this is not going to be very popular as it would basically kill tactics as we know it, whether that be ratting or tackling, since only each races EW platforms would be able to jam, dampen, scram, web, or target disrupt, with bonuses for one type and not for the other. But it is the whole reason why specialized EW platforms are built in the first place.
If the changes in the blog are all but set in stone, then can ya also add some ECM/EW specialization skillbooks allowing one to get say Radar ECM Specialization giving a +5% or +10% bonus to the strength of Radar ECM mods per level. This would allow folks who wish to be EW/ECM specialists a way to further distinguish themselves from those who just dabble. (Maybe even tie in a prereq level in those spec skills to alow Tech 3 racial jammers when they come available) ___________________________________________________
Hunc tu caveto |
Mistress Suffering
Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.23 23:24:00 -
[126]
Suggestion addition: ECCM effectiveness should be increased.
Whereas ECM is usable against any target, by fitting ECCM you are choosing to fortify yourself against a very narrow means of attack. Something narrowly useful should be much stronger against that one item.
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Moraguth
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Posted - 2006.10.24 02:12:00 -
[127]
So I've been thinking about this alot today, and immediately came up with an idea, but Slarivet said it first.
I thought of this while i was doing a mission, had to go up against some caldari ships (i'm amarr) and they were kicking my butt at first. Then, every once in awhile, i'd lose all my targets, but i could see no bar for EW being used on me, and the error message when i tried to target said something like "you can't target any more ships because your ship can't target any more (max of 0).
If there was an equation to account for the sensor str. and the number of targets possible for a ship, that would be easier to mess with how much chance a ship has of being jammed. But, it would only be jammed for 1 or 2 targets at a time for each jammer, so the effect against a frigate sized vessel would be much higher than against a BS or a Cap ship. This would, of course, also bring the targeting and multitasking skills into play more, and remove the "1 module locking down 10 slots on my BS isn't fair" syndrome. Then, for the tech 2 ships, they get some sort of multiplier or bonus to make them even more uber. This way, it would be pretty impossible for a frig to completely lock down a BS, but a BB would have a good chance of holding down 1 or 2 BS and a tech 2 BB could hold down 3-ish. I won't pretend to know how all the numbers would play out, but I think it's a better solution. ECCM modules would increase your sensor str, making it harder for one of your targets to be lost, and having better targeting skills would decrease the chances that your particular target is jammed. This works in my head, let me explain it real fast.
say you're in a ship and have a sensor str of 20. You get jammed by 2 jammers at, say 5 points, each. So you have a 25% chance (2 times) to lose one of your targets. Let's say one of those make it through and actually score a "hit" and jam you. Then, depending on the number of targets you can have locked, you get another chance. If you can lock 4 targets, you have another 25% chance for you to lose your target if you only have 1 ship targetted. If you had 4 targets at that time, you lost one of them, no questions and can't try to target a 4th one (because effectively your max targets has been dropped to 3). I think that makes sense. But, because there are now 2 chance calculations in my example, that means the chances have gone down quite a bit. So here's where the EW guys get all happy (and i hate EW, but i like to be fair) the EW chance or str or whatever, would have to be increased. This is just a rough idea, and you and i both know that it isn't going to happen, but off the wall ideas are fun and are where this company started anyway (hey, let's make ALL those poor bastards play on the SAME server, HAHAHahahahaha), so here's my shot anyway. I love this game, and i'm sure there'll be *****ing and rejoicing both with whatever they decide, but i feel like i've done my part now.
Good Game CCP, Good Game.
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.24 03:09:00 -
[128]
I've kicked this ecm problem around myself.... and around, and....
I have to say, this is a really elegant design you've worked out. Without seeing the numbers being bounced around right now, it's hard to say much more than that, but I'm truly impressed with how this looks conceptually.
Keep up the good work Tux and team! J.A.F.O.
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Matuk Grymwal
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2006.10.24 03:27:00 -
[129]
Hmm...well I guess I'll have to drop the multi's I use on my matar ships. I've been using them on my Huginn to get around not having a decent defensive EW bonus. Not that the web/paint bonus isn't useful, but some form of defensive EW would be nice...ah well plenty of other threads about that. Guess I'll try damps or tracking disruptors once Kali roles around (Hugesis anyone? )
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Romble
The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.24 03:30:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Romble on 24/10/2006 03:31:50 If they dont want everyone to use ecm then why not just do what they did with cov ops cloak device.
1. Up the fitting cost of ecm to ridiculous amounts 2.Reduce the cost for ecm boats (grif, blackbird, scorp, rook etc)
In fact perhaps they should do the same for all types of ew.. tracking disruptors, sensor damps etc so that the ships that are made to use them are the only ones that can use them. Like other MMO they would in fact have classes that fits a role that others cannot do. Having said this and continuing on this theme of classes, i would like to see them make logistics ships immune to ew(except warp scrambling) and force them to actually "heal" or remote eccm their friendlies. Perhpas then we would see some logistic ships in the field.
As far as balance yes they need some nerf as its way too powerful just like all these games "crowd control" always gets nerfed/removed.
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Ephemeron
Crimson Crusaders Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.10.24 03:52:00 -
[131]
I like these ideas, if the numbers are tweaked correctly, it'll work well.
I want to make sure of one thing tho:
Those "low slot ECM boosting mods" should be balanced with Tech 2 in mind. And please don't forget to seed named t1 versions in loot tables of NPCs. This shouldn't turn out like the Drone mods.
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rodgerd
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.24 05:00:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The thing I'm worried about with forcing ECM to a few specific ships is it's so completely against EVE's basic principles. This is supposed to be a class-free game, with as much freedom to choose your setups as possible.
So you'll no doubt be demanding that drones get a 50% bonus to damage and armour regardless of which ship you launch them from, or that railguns be as effective on an Apocalypse as a Megathron.
This change is entirely consistent with the rest of the game setup: tht you have to mount modules on the right ship to make optimal use of them.
It arguably exacerbates the Caldari I-Win button problem (only EWAR BS, arguably best PvE BS, soon to arrive best sniping BS), but that's a whole other issue.
Personally I'd like to see ECM, if remaining chance based, move to an S-curve rather than a linear probability, so low strengths rarely jam, while high strengths almost always jam, with a rapid rise from, say 2/3 - 1, with the 0-2/3 being lower than it is now. Not the opinions of my corp or my alliance. |
dr34dp1r4t3r0b3rts
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Posted - 2006.10.24 08:22:00 -
[133]
Noob question here, but does the Blackbird get the range/cap bonuses on burst ECMs? Will this adjustment impact burst ECMs one way or another?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.24 08:30:00 -
[134]
Originally by: rodgerd
Personally I'd like to see ECM, if remaining chance based, move to an S-curve rather than a linear probability, so low strengths rarely jam, while high strengths almost always jam, with a rapid rise from, say 2/3 - 1, with the 0-2/3 being lower than it is now.
That's actually an extremely good idea. The caveat being of course, that it'd require a bit of a rejig of strengths across the board, such that the ECM specced ships still have good odds against ships of their size, and 'existant' odds against ships a size up.
It'd still mean that a BS with an ECM would be fairly easily able to jam a frigate, but not necessarily the other way around.
And best of all, doesn't require rewriting how ECMs work entirely. At least, I'd assume a 'calculate jam percent' forumula would be a fairly easy thing to tweak, and just base it on a bell curve or cosh function or something.
In the meantime though, I think this implementation will suffice.
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Mainreh Rhonaki
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Posted - 2006.10.24 09:54:00 -
[135]
Originally by: rodgerd Personally I'd like to see ECM, if remaining chance based, move to an S-curve rather than a linear probability, so low strengths rarely jam, while high strengths almost always jam, with a rapid rise from, say 2/3 - 1, with the 0-2/3 being lower than it is now.
This has a positive side-effect in that it implicitly fixes the ECCMs for most cases, as moutning one will likely put you in the lower end of the S-curve. E.g:
Today: ECM 10 / sensor 10 == 100% ECM 10 / ECCMd sensor 20 == 50%
Tomorrow: ECM 10 / sensor 10 == 100% ECM 10 / ECCMd sensor 20 == 25% (or whatever)
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D2O HeavyWater
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.24 09:56:00 -
[136]
mmmmm sounds ok ish, although the scorp only has 4 low's to begin with seems harsh to force one of them slots for ecm.
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Xordus
Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.24 11:27:00 -
[137]
I love it. Have to see how it pans out but the individual multispec is the biggest prob I think. It looks like you're on top of it.
Kudos
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arjun
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.10.24 11:33:00 -
[138]
i personally like the changes that went into ecm. although ill miss my 3 1600mm plates in the low slots of the scorp. there is however a problem and issue i dont understand: why is it much harder to jamm close by ships than jamming ships which are quite far away? as far as i understand there is no tracking involved in ecm modules. i have maxed ecm skills and in gang with my other char that has information warfare maxed and sits in an eos my optimal range of the jammers is 206 km if i remember right. i have no trouble jamming those snipers out there but jamming the blastertron which pops up next to me gives me a real headache. can anybody explauin here why this is so? was it a mistake to train those ecm range skills up because it rather hampers me sometimes?
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Montero
Black Omega Security
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Posted - 2006.10.24 11:45:00 -
[139]
Ok, i forgive your tresspasses. Sweet blog. ---------
Scrapheap Challenge
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Raneru
Gallente Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2006.10.24 12:04:00 -
[140]
Personally, I'd rather have jamming just break the lock of a ship rather than disabling it for 20secs. Thats enough of a disruption as it is in the middle of a fight.
With the new changes, I'll just have to avoid Caldari (even more) like the plague when flying solo.
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ShuffCha
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Posted - 2006.10.24 12:15:00 -
[141]
Implement a module to reset the ship-computer. But do it with high coasts like, lose hole shild, all targets. Or a huge amount of cap or just a real long runtime.
Imho the EW problem is that you cant counter it efficiantly.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2006.10.24 12:32:00 -
[142]
With those changes nothing will really change. The problem with ECM is not that it works on all ships. It more that it prevents ppl from fighting at all.
Anybody who flies in medium sized gangs regulary know this problem. You have an enemy that looks ok from a number point of view. They may even outnumber you but your skills are generaly higher and you fleet composition is good too. But then those two scorps show up and you have to turn around because you wont even be able to give them losses while being taken out one by one.
The effect, which is redering one or even more targets helpless, is way to strong. I know there are drones but you can counter that by being out of drone range. This strong effect which can only be countered by faster locktime and ECM leads to less fighting.
And reasons for less fighting in a time where ppl are not willing anymore to sacrifice a ship, because it's a pain in the *beep* to make those 80 jumps to jita to get replacements in ships and mods, is not what we need.
We need a working anti missile system and to get rid of this fighting prevention system that's ECM today.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:14:00 -
[143]
In My opinion, you just f'd up a perfectly great low-range ship - The BlackBird, a great and agile and very useful little bugger will now be ....
simply ignored, and moved onto a Scorpion. You're messing up new players ability to use that ship to learn/be proficient at EW without having to learn Battleship skills to lvl 4/5. I am not a new player myself, but for all new ppl joining it is disappointing. I can only speak about Caldari ships since this is primarily what i fly.
'Great'...
On another note, would the ECM power stay the same/be better on ECM ships (namely the scorpion now).. and would the ECM power be better without that low slot module. You can see how what I am asking is to differentiate b/n these two things..
Thanks for any replies!
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:17:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Kaell Meynn What about us non-caldari pilots who maxed ECM and use it on non-caldari ships? Can we get the SPs back? Or will 1 lowslot make us equal in strength to a blackbird again? If not, this sounds like a boost to Caldari, and a nerf of everyone else who trained ECM under the current rules.
My ECM ships which I put millions of SPs into ECM for include...
Helios Celestis (damps suck, I use ECM( Dominix
Alternatively, give these 3 ships ECM boost as well.
KAEL, it SHOULD BE A NERF TO Non-Caldari ships. No other than Caldari has an ECM bonus, your ships (namely Gallente) have dampening bonuses, and use blasters! Other races have other , i.e. tracking distruptor bonuses. Be content with your Race, otherwise train Caldari ships!
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:21:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Mistress Suffering Suggestion addition: ECCM effectiveness should be increased.
Whereas ECM is usable against any target, by fitting ECCM you are choosing to fortify yourself against a very narrow means of attack. Something narrowly useful should be much stronger against that one item.
Oh but it is, have you ever tried fitting yourself with an ECCM 1 per med, and 1 per low slot? with that you can increase your ships Radar strength to about 60-70, with proper best T1 modules. That I believe given the ECM chance based theory makes it VERY improbably that you will be jammed. How much more do you need?
After all an ECM pilot is fitting 5 ECM's to be effective (usually). Do you expect to couterattack a Specialized ship like the Scorpion for example with a single module fitted while at the same time you keep you ARMOR/SHIELD TANK and DAMAGE MODS ???
geez.., lol if you really want to be specially equipped, fit 5 ECCM like the ECM pilot does, i can tell you then noone will be able to jam you with that 5% chance to jam you after the ECCM bonuses!
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:28:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Mainreh Rhonaki
Originally by: rodgerd Personally I'd like to see ECM, if remaining chance based, move to an S-curve rather than a linear probability, so low strengths rarely jam, while high strengths almost always jam, with a rapid rise from, say 2/3 - 1, with the 0-2/3 being lower than it is now.
This has a positive side-effect in that it implicitly fixes the ECCMs for most cases, as moutning one will likely put you in the lower end of the S-curve. E.g:
Today: ECM 10 / sensor 10 == 100% ECM 10 / ECCMd sensor 20 == 50%
Tomorrow: ECM 10 / sensor 10 == 100% ECM 10 / ECCMd sensor 20 == 25% (or whatever)
Positive for Whom ?????
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:30:00 -
[147]
Originally by: D2O HeavyWater mmmmm sounds ok ish, although the scorp only has 4 low's to begin with seems harsh to force one of them slots for ecm.
Precisely, the Scorpion is already lacking on EVERYTHING else but he ability to Jam, take one more slot (be it Low) and it's a what.. a must have 100% jam or Die !!! that's what it is...
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:32:00 -
[148]
Originally by: arjun i personally like the changes that went into ecm. although ill miss my 3 1600mm plates in the low slots of the scorp. there is however a problem and issue i dont understand: why is it much harder to jamm close by ships than jamming ships which are quite far away? as far as i understand there is no tracking involved in ecm modules. i have maxed ecm skills and in gang with my other char that has information warfare maxed and sits in an eos my optimal range of the jammers is 206 km if i remember right. i have no trouble jamming those snipers out there but jamming the blastertron which pops up next to me gives me a real headache. can anybody explauin here why this is so? was it a mistake to train those ecm range skills up because it rather hampers me sometimes?
Yes CCP, please do something about that, I know you say it's chance based, but somehow anytime I try to jam a ship 5km away, the chance is greatly diminished even when applying 6ECM one after another. Crazy unlucky huh..
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:35:00 -
[149]
Hey I have an idea, for all you ECM haters.. how about we make target painting/dampening/tracking distruption also Chance based ? only seems fair... since every race gets an EW trait. Only Caldari however seems to be chance based.. hmmm....????????
And no, ECM is not way too powerful, id' feel pretty helpless if I am in say a minmatar cruiser to be tracking distrupted 100% of the time with a single module and killed by a frig.. so you see? it's the same, even worse than losing targetting for 20sec., cause you can regain regain targetting eventually, but not really tracking back.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.10.24 13:38:00 -
[150]
Originally by: gfldex With those changes nothing will really change. The problem with ECM is not that it works on all ships. It more that it prevents ppl from fighting at all.
Anybody who flies in medium sized gangs regulary know this problem. You have an enemy that looks ok from a number point of view. They may even outnumber you but your skills are generaly higher and you fleet composition is good too. But then those two scorps show up and you have to turn around because you wont even be able to give them losses while being taken out one by one.
The effect, which is redering one or even more targets helpless, is way to strong. I know there are drones but you can counter that by being out of drone range. This strong effect which can only be countered by faster locktime and ECM leads to less fighting.
And reasons for less fighting in a time where ppl are not willing anymore to sacrifice a ship, because it's a pain in the *beep* to make those 80 jumps to jita to get replacements in ships and mods, is not what we need.
We need a working anti missile system and to get rid of this fighting prevention system that's ECM today.
well tricks of the trade pal, i don't like it any better when that Blastertron shows up next to my scorp, and i have the wrong ECM racials fitted and die in 4 seconds, but hey.. ...
Train for Caldari, or get them in your gang. It's just another aspect of the game!
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