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Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2011.12.23 22:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
My response to this thread can be summarised by this very important quote:
Quote:Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB. |
Drake Draconis
Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans
164
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Posted - 2011.12.23 23:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
This thread is nothing mroe than a joke if not an insult to what EVE is really about.
It's all good and fine to stand on your soap box and yell "republic republic republic" in defense of the newbies...but lets face the facts here shall we?
1: EVE Online is a game that encourages you to be a total scumbag...and have fun. That means theft....treason..spying...backstabbing...scamming...etc.
Outside of breaking EULA and cheating...you can pretty much do what you want and get away with it and the worst that could happen is you end up trashing toon when the jig is up if you will.
2: This game is harsh...its not freaking kindergarden WOW...it wasn't designed to be...it takes you hours just to leern to fly your ship...and months to master aspects of the game...you can't just sit down and dive into....lesson number 2 if not 3 is simply this...you can't trust everyone you meet...that general impresion ring strong (scamming..can flipping..etc)
3: High Sec is not newbie playground...its high sec....a place where CONCORD polices players and provides some but not all forms of protection against most problems/issues...protection that is faulty as its easily manipulated.
You want a solution?
Its not the game.
take a long good look in the mirror.
Its the player...startnig with you yourself....stop lying to youself and proclaiming defense of newbie experince and get this straight.....what you do in the game...how you behave..how you fly..how you communicate has an impact on the experince.
EVE encourages the darker side of people to cmoe out and play...and most people just can't handle that.
Do you honestly want eve to become more hello kitty-ized and less EVE?
That is the real lynchpin in your "argument"
Socail interaction my ass....you got local...and everything else.
They dont interact because your gonna be qucik to shove a knife in their back....
Best defense..join a corporation....dive into the deep end of the pool...learn....get experince....adapt...or die.
PS: I'm not saying we change how we play...stopping the nastieness that people love to do. Waht I'm saying here is your splashing buckets of water on napalm thats been lit with galleons of gas being dumped on it...by your own hands. To argue such things is hypocracy...and in effect..you shoot your own head off. The only way to get people to stick around is to teach them..not just greif and laugh. All to often people emo-rage-quit becuase nobody thinks about that..they just want the lol's...rightfully so...but it comes down to you...the indivual who RESPONDS to the newbie...not the other way around.
End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. |
Takara Mora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2011.12.26 17:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Drake - you can state "EVE is harsh, HTFU & get over it" all you want ... you're not wrong or right ... either way, the problem is, EVE is unsustainable in its current form .... it's not growing enough and will eventually implode if we don't find a way to retain more players .... players that start out in hisec ... players that don't "appreciate" everyone bullying them around the moment they join the game (even if as you say, the whole goal should be for themselves to become bullies after they train themselves up).
I simply don't buy that a game that's ALL about "Bully or Be Bullied" can survive on the market very long .... it's a critical part of the universe to be sure .... but I don't believe in the "sure it's a sandbox but if you don't PvP you're playing EVE wrong" attitude that many bitter vets espouse .... could be just me but I bet a majority of subscribers would agree actually. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
245
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Posted - 2011.12.26 17:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Takara Mora wrote:Drake - you can state "EVE is harsh, HTFU & get over it" all you want ... you're not wrong or right ... either way, the problem is, EVE is unsustainable in its current form .... it's not growing enough and will eventually implode if we don't find a way to retain more players .... players that start out in hisec ... players that don't "appreciate" everyone bullying them around the moment they join the game (even if as you say, the whole goal should be for themselves to become bullies after they train themselves up).
I simply don't buy that a game that's ALL about "Bully or Be Bullied" can survive on the market very long .... it's a critical part of the universe to be sure .... but I don't believe in the "sure it's a sandbox but if you don't PvP you're playing EVE wrong" attitude that many bitter vets espouse .... could be just me but I bet a majority of subscribers would agree actually.
It's been growing steadily for nearly 10 years at this point (well, sans Incarna being the black spot on the trend). Seems they're doing something right.
Fact of the matter is, you cannot not have PvP interaction in EVE. Yes, you can avoid PVP Combat ... but there's so much more PvP interaction than shooting the other guy in the face.
Mining your home system clean daily Dropping (offline) towers on every available moon in a 0.5 system The market Salvaging Manufacturing (see: The Market) Research and Development (i.e. BPO ME/PE) Contracts Scamming etc ... |
Takara Mora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2011.12.26 18:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
Agreed Velicitia, good catch on the other forms of PVP being in there ... I was mainly referring to combat I guess. Indeed like I mentioned, PvP is a critical part of EVE .... but IMO reducing everything down to Bully or Be Bullied doesn't do the bulk of the players justice.
Re: EVE having an accepatable growth rate .... I guess it depends on what benchmark we would use & what games we would compare against - IMO the quality of EVE's engine, background, etc. should put it in competition with the giants of the industry who have many millions of subs, so I'm using a high bar there for comparison - and I'm concerned the recent 20% CCP Layoffs don't indicate a positive direction perhaps ... sure they might have been due to other factors - maybe some other forum lurkers have better info that can allay my fears? |
Velicitia
Open Designs
245
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Posted - 2011.12.26 19:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
layoffs were because CCP re-structured their business model after realising another patch like Incarna was more likely to lead to 100% layoffs than ~excellence~.
So, assuming that CCP sticks to their "new direction" (which is amusing, because it's their "old direction"), we'll continue to see the trend in subs come back (i.e. steady growth). Same goes for Dust -- it'll probably have slow, steady growth as opposed to 10 million people playing all the time (or whatever CoD and MW can boast).
As for the game being "Bully or be bullied" -- I think you're wrong there too. Sure, it happens a fair bit -- but I think the real problem is the "victim mentality" and the general lack of ties you find in empire corporations (generally because stuff is so easy to do alone).
Incursion running is helping a bit -- it forces people to work together a LOT more than you would normally see in a hisec-based corporation. I don't know your experience with hisec corporations, though I'm going to assume that "Takara" is a forum alt, and that you're more familiar with low or null.
Hisec corps will generally be built around good ideas ... but will utterly fail at pulling them off -- there is rarely a sense of camaraderie beyond "we're in the same chat channels". The hisec "mining/missioning" corps I've been part of will generally have people all over the place because they want to run with better agents or something, rather than risk lower ISK/hour and stay together. Furthermore, It's hard getting people to want to put their stupidly overpriced mission runner or mining barge away for a week to jump in and help in a wardec (in FREE ships provided by the corporation, no less). Usually the corp will bleed members, and simply failscade after getting dec'd. |
Thredd Necro
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
89
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Posted - 2011.12.26 19:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:layoffs were because CCP re-structured their business model after realising another patch like Incarna was more likely to lead to 100% layoffs than ~excellence~.
So, assuming that CCP sticks to their "new direction" (which is amusing, because it's their "old direction"), we'll continue to see the trend in subs come back (i.e. steady growth). Same goes for Dust -- it'll probably have slow, steady growth as opposed to 10 million people playing all the time (or whatever CoD and MW can boast).
As for the game being "Bully or be bullied" -- I think you're wrong there too. Sure, it happens a fair bit -- but I think the real problem is the "victim mentality" and the general lack of ties you find in empire corporations (generally because stuff is so easy to do alone).
Incursion running is helping a bit -- it forces people to work together a LOT more than you would normally see in a hisec-based corporation. I don't know your experience with hisec corporations, though I'm going to assume that "Takara" is a forum alt, and that you're more familiar with low or null.
Hisec corps will generally be built around good ideas ... but will utterly fail at pulling them off -- there is rarely a sense of camaraderie beyond "we're in the same chat channels". The hisec "mining/missioning" corps I've been part of will generally have people all over the place because they want to run with better agents or something, rather than risk lower ISK/hour and stay together. Furthermore, It's hard getting people to want to put their stupidly overpriced mission runner or mining barge away for a week to jump in and help in a wardec (in FREE ships provided by the corporation, no less). Usually the corp will bleed members, and simply failscade after getting dec'd.
Free ships to go shoot the other guy? Heck yes!
I like to think those persons who were laid off could have been used to speed up the return to the old direction so I suspect financial considerations were more involved rather than less.
I, and many others, still think that EVE has almost everything it needs to have millions of subs and lots more action from highsec to lowsec to nullsec, except for one major thing: An excellent attitude about it's entire customer base, past present and future.
(In the mean time, inflation has been growing steadily and so has the cost of goods and services...)
I agree that there is as much a "cult of the victim" as there is a "cult of the bully" in this game. There are bullies who enjoy making other people's game experience less fun and there are also people that really do want to be completely safe in highsec. Both groups are missing the point I think. I also agree that given EVE's PVP > Instancing approach (which is just fine) it would make sense that highsec corps would be less cohesive since nearly everyone CAN pursue their own agenda solo.
EVE by reputation does not exactly engender thoughts of trust and teamwork which colors the entire game top to bottom. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams |
Velicitia
Open Designs
245
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Posted - 2011.12.26 20:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Thredd Necro wrote: (stuff)
Yes, I agree that the people who were let go could have potentially been used to turn CCP around -- but IIRC, it was the community people and WoD people who were mainly done away with, as their positions became "redundant" as part of the restructuring.
You're right about the "cult of the bully" too, though I think that as the "cult of the victim" crowd diminishes, the bully crowd will diminish as well (since even the little guys are OK with stepping it up and protecting themselves).
Personally, I think one of the better ways to fix this involves changing CONCORD a little bit in 0.5 (maybe even in 0.6) so that you can protect your miners or whatever, and not get concorded immediately for doing so.
Something like this -- https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=507929#post507929 (post #9) ... actually, I think you even mentioned liking that a bit somewhere else in that thread.
trust? in my eve? |
Thredd Necro
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
90
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Posted - 2011.12.27 16:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Thredd Necro wrote: (stuff) Yes, I agree that the people who were let go could have potentially been used to turn CCP around -- but IIRC, it was the community people and WoD people who were mainly done away with, as their positions became "redundant" as part of the restructuring. You're right about the "cult of the bully" too, though I think that as the "cult of the victim" crowd diminishes, the bully crowd will diminish as well (since even the little guys are OK with stepping it up and protecting themselves). Personally, I think one of the better ways to fix this involves changing CONCORD a little bit in 0.5 (maybe even in 0.6) so that you can protect your miners or whatever, and not get concorded immediately for doing so. Something like this -- https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=507929#post507929 (post #9) ... actually, I think you even mentioned liking that a bit somewhere else in that thread. trust? in my eve?
Definitely behind some tweaks to make things a bit more smooth and linear regarding security response.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams |
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.01.02 21:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
I take this as the tl;dr version:
"I don't want to take time to scan down missions to ninja salvage, and I think I found a new way to say that while trying to sound like I am looking out for newbies." |
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Camios
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
46
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Posted - 2012.01.04 00:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hiply Rustic wrote:I take this as the tl;dr version:
"I don't want to take time to scan down missions to ninja salvage, and I think I found a new way to say that while trying to sound like I am looking out for newbies."
If you wanted to show your intelligence, you actually did. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Molden Heath Angels
27
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Posted - 2012.01.08 23:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
missions are mostly fine as they are
question is more like why would anyone want to interact with a newbie? they're useless as they should be too
it doesnt matter if newbie is in hi sec low sec or 0.0
it doesnt make sense everyone is infamous snowflake by default i'd question if it's even possible anyway
eve is rather easy game and getting hands on isk is easier than ever
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Kaelie Onren
Pyrrhus Industries
12
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Posted - 2012.01.25 14:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
I think they already did this. Its called COSMOS missions. Give them a try. |
Bernie Nator
Insidious Design Talocan United
65
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Posted - 2012.01.25 16:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
In all honesty, the new players have rookie help and local chat. That's all I had when I started and it was good enough for me. If they really feel a need to connect to other players via a different channel, there's always events or even logging onto the forums. |
Camios
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
48
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Posted - 2012.01.25 19:15:00 -
[45] - Quote
Bernie Nator wrote:In all honesty, the new players have rookie help and local chat. That's all I had when I started and it was good enough for me. If they really feel a need to connect to other players via a different channel, there's always events or even logging onto the forums.
In this frame of mind we could say that we don't need anything new because we're doing fine now. You found that the interaction you had was enough (like me), there's nothing wrong with it. But I find strange that a newbie can only interact through chats, and not "playing together" just because all the other players are unreachable in the game physical world.
In a sense, if you can't use probes the missions and complexes are like closed dungeons of other notorious games. And newbies have no access to probes, so for them the "open world" paradigm is not so evident.
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