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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:36:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Grey Area Let's get one thing straight.
I don't fit a WCS because of NPCs. They tackle me, I kill them, that's how it works. For that period of time when they are tackling me I am easy meat for a Player Pirate in 0.4, and that's the risk that I ALREADY take going into a 0.4. The risk reward thing is already there.
I fit a Warp Core Stab so that I can defend myself against PLAYER pirates, nothing else. I can't kill them because they will lock me down with ECM, and filling up midslots with ECM modules when running a mission is just NOT going to happen...plus my skills in it suck because I am a MISSION RUNNER not a PIRATE.
The WCS in this case is not a guaranteed "get out of jail free" card. At most I will fit two or three if the area is really busy. Most times I just fit the one, which means if YOU, Mr Pirate, have done your job properly I am still dead...but it will stop the opportunist ganker in his solo HAC from locking me down. Note that in this case those modules replace my damage mods, which means I kill the NPCs slower, which means I spend more time in low sec for you to come gank me...for mission runners WCS were ALREADY BALANCED.
And as to the comment I can "still run missions, only slower"...you really have NEVER tried it, have you?
Missions in low sec are now dead. Welcome to Motsu, population 600 and rising....
If your too afraid of loosing your ship in low-sec stay in high-sec. Run the high-sec missions, make the ****ty isk, its your choice. There are plenty of people who run missions in low-sec, hell I have a few 3 week olds in my corp that are running missions in low sec, so for you to complain you cant just means you dont want to.
Cant != Wont.
By the way, I am not a pirate, I am an anti-pirate with most of my skills in industry and spaceship command, to fly the ships I used to make. I still live and run missions in low-sec.
Again, Cant != Wont.
Welcome to Eve. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Buskerdu
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:39:00 -
[92]
Hey Popsikle. I appreciate your response to my last post; actually agree with some of your points. Just for the benefit of anyone interested in some objective debate what do you think of these points:
Quote: Its harder to get into 7.5k and engage someone who doesnt want to be engaged then its is to use a stab. On top of that, stabs dont require cap while running, and on most ships mid slot's are more valuable then low slots.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:40:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Grey Area
I fit a Warp Core Stab so that I can defend myself against PLAYER pirates, nothing else. I can't kill them because they will lock me down with ECM, and filling up midslots with ECM modules when running a mission is just NOT going to happen...plus my skills in it suck because I am a MISSION RUNNER not a PIRATE. ... And as to the comment I can "still run missions, only slower"...you really have NEVER tried it, have you?
Oh boy.
Most of the missions I've ever run have been in lowsec, currently I do them in 0.2 / 0.1 when I feel like doing missions -- usually this means "when we aren't at war"
Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Complex runners may have pirate problems, belt rat hunters may have pirate problems, but mission runners? Nah. If you're feeling paranoid, use gate-to-gate and gate-to-station instas. There is no way a pirate will catch you unless you seriously screw up.
In short: if you can't run missions without stabs, you suck. Learn not to suck.
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Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:44:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Buskerdu Hey Popsikle. I appreciate your response to my last post; actually agree with some of your points. Just for the benefit of anyone interested in some objective debate what do you think of these points:
Quote: Its harder to get into 7.5k and engage someone who doesnt want to be engaged then its is to use a stab. On top of that, stabs dont require cap while running, and on most ships mid slot's are more valuable then low slots.
Im confused, you just quoted me, and told me to respond to myself! __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =- |
Tovarishch
Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:51:00 -
[95]
CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant.
Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want.
The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Beef Hardslab
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:52:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Popsikle http://www.eveinfo.com
Being a noob has nothign to do with not using all the resources you have at your finger tips. Thats just being dumb. By the time you get to level 4's, or doing missions in a raven, you really shouldnt be a noob anymore.
I use eveinfo all the time. The site is great, and I love it, but it isn't foolproof. I also search the mission name, here and in google, and read what other people have to say about it. Trust me, I try to prepare for each mission as well as I am able. I'm not saying that I can't run level 4s, and I'm not *****ing about the WCS nerf - IMO it needed a nerf. I'm just saying that it does indeed affect mission runners. Maybe not you, or the other few people here with snide remarks, but it will have an effect.
I've been in the game less than two months, and have just over 1 mil SP - noob material, I'm sure. I've got multiple level 4 agents available, and I'm in a Raven. I haven't run any yet because to be honest I'm not sure I'm ready.
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D'Arkon Skye
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.10.24 20:54:00 -
[97]
We stab users wouldn't be whining and fitting 100 stabs on each ship, causing CCP to nerf them, if it weren't for psychos using warp scramblers!!! Don't nerf stabs, nerf scramblers and then you won't have to worry about so many stabbed out ships.
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Buskerdu
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Posted - 2006.10.24 21:01:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Buskerdu on 24/10/2006 21:02:01 Hey Pop. My bad... like I said I hit "Enter" in the heat-of-the-moment
My edited response is back a few posts...
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.24 22:13:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Tovarishch CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant.
Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want.
The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem.
Agreed
It will also help the lame pvpeers who use them to be more lame in combat as a reflect to their need to get the hell out after a quick gank , tbh i think the penalty should be increased more "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
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Robet Katrix
Beagle Corp R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.10.24 22:42:00 -
[100]
TBH
CCP hit the bullseye.
Perceftly.
unbelievable yet true.
Quite possibly the most important, and well done nerf, EVER
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Aslann
Gallente Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.10.24 22:59:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Oh boy.
Most of the missions I've ever run have been in lowsec, currently I do them in 0.2 / 0.1 when I feel like doing missions -- usually this means "when we aren't at war"
Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Complex runners may have pirate problems, belt rat hunters may have pirate problems, but mission runners? Nah. If you're feeling paranoid, use gate-to-gate and gate-to-station instas. There is no way a pirate will catch you unless you seriously screw up.
In short: if you can't run missions without stabs, you suck. Learn not to suck.
How will insta's help you when you jump into a system and a pirate is on the gate. You'll be dead before your slowass BS is aligned and warped (Generally missions setups will not be able to beat a ganker, specially when its more then 1).
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Azrael Bierce
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:03:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade But it will still be able to operate at 16km, and scramble, and stay out of web range.
Not harsh enough IMO.
While this is true, if they have to dodge outside of 16km to avoid you, they lose their target. It suddenly gives them a VERY small margin of error to avoid webs, and if they lose their target, you can warp.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Nova Republic
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:05:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Octavio Santillian Perhaps, but the fact is I still have all these faction mods. I guess I 'could' sell the stuff (not the implants), but that's not likely. Really, the Vaga is only okish without all the faction gear and implants.
But how is it with rigs?
OH! RIGS!!!!
I wonder if there will be a speed rig that could replace some of your Gist MWD and stuff?
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
Imode
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:09:00 -
[104]
Originally by: D'Arkon Skye We stab users wouldn't be whining and fitting 100 stabs on each ship, causing CCP to nerf them, if it weren't for psychos using warp scramblers!!! Don't nerf stabs, nerf scramblers and then you won't have to worry about so many stabbed out ships.
If only! I would love to have my 40cpu back so I can fit something else!
As long as you promise not to warp away when I jam you with a multispec II ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |
hUssmann
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:12:00 -
[105]
Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.
Best nerf ever.
Phoenix Lonestar > Server lag was non-existant pre-Dragon |
Verone
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:14:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Butter Dog The way they have implemented this nerf is a stroke of pure genius.
No serious PvP will now fit stabs, wheras haulers are uneffected.
Excellent work.
I tend to agree.
With regards to the WCS nerf, Veto have released the following statement :
Quote:
ololOloLOLOloLoloLOLolOLoLoLOlOLoLOLolOL
YYYEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESSSSS!111
*Pelvic Thrust**Pelvic Thrust**Pelvic Thrust*
*rubnipple*
Thank you for your attention.
WWW.VETO-CORP.COM
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:15:00 -
[107]
This is the most spot-on change from CCP...ever
Big thumbs up to CCP and a Tech2 tissue for all the stablovers out there
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Forces of Freedom
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:19:00 -
[108]
Hmmmm that kinda renders tractorbeams useless in combination with stabs on a hauler for ratting purposes... ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:21:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Patch86 I've never fitted a Stab on a mission ship. Ever. Not even thought of it. And you know what, I was a newbie mission runner once, too! Not too long ago, either! I did once lose a Domi to a Scram NPC, but it was my own fault for not concentrating and noticing him scramming me a bit earlier.
I fly in low-sec and 0.0 a lot. I've never fitted a stab on a single combat ship. I figure that if I'm out there, and I'm fully fitted with guns and tank, I might aswell fight to the end
If I've ever fit stabs on a hauler, I can't remember (it seems a bit of a waste to me, when you could fit another expander instead). Might have though, as it is sensible in many circumstances.
Basically what *I* wanted to say. I cant recall ever fitting a stab to a hauler myself, but then I have a prorator for lowsec work so thats +2 inbuilt stabs already.
IIRC, the only ship currently fitted w. stabs in my hangar(s) is my "im carrying faction/officer gear to highsec for sale and im paranoid" camp-running spare covert-ops fitted w. MWD and not even a gatling pulse laser. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Da'Neth
Gallente Deadly Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:22:00 -
[110]
this is all well and good I am glad we will beabul to lock down snipers but I whant proof dev post or screen shot from sisi ---
join the DA click above |
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.10.24 23:25:00 -
[111]
Hmm. Is that 16KM with max targetting skill, no sensor booster and 2 halcyon WCS? Or is that just normal tech 1 stabbies?
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:39:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Popsikle If your too afraid of loosing your ship in low-sec stay in high-sec. Run the high-sec missions, make the ****ty isk, its your choice. There are plenty of people who run missions in low-sec, hell I have a few 3 week olds in my corp that are running missions in low sec, so for you to complain you cant just means you dont want to.
Cant != Wont.
By the way, I am not a pirate, I am an anti-pirate with most of my skills in industry and spaceship command, to fly the ships I used to make. I still live and run missions in low-sec.
Again, Cant != Wont.
Welcome to Eve.
All well and good Mr I'm not a Pirate Popsikle. But my point is...running missions in low sec just got HARDER. Will the rewards get BIGGER? No. So how come Risk vs Reward only works in one direction?
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Oh boy.
Most of the missions I've ever run have been in lowsec, currently I do them in 0.2 / 0.1 when I feel like doing missions -- usually this means "when we aren't at war"
Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place? Complex runners may have pirate problems, belt rat hunters may have pirate problems, but mission runners? Nah. If you're feeling paranoid, use gate-to-gate and gate-to-station instas. There is no way a pirate will catch you unless you seriously screw up.
In short: if you can't run missions without stabs, you suck. Learn not to suck.
OK, since we don't have a base in low sec, we work on the edge of empire space. Run a few missions in a 0.4 chokepoint and see how much problem you have with pirates.
And if you HAVEN'T had problems with pirates until now, then you've been very lucky, or you have dumb pirates. I was scanned with a CoV Ops ship and had a gank party warp in to my mission (yes, it was a long mission) and lock me down and ransom me. Cost me 150 million, which doesn't come back QUICK from mission rewards these days.
I do apologise however for assuming that you had not much mission running experience. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
TheDevilsJury
principle of motion R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:49:00 -
[113]
pity about the nerf... makes the "I-Win" setup I've got in my signature kinda useless :(
^^^^ Certified Anti-CHON Fit ^^^^ |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:51:00 -
[114]
Originally by: DrAtomic Hmmmm that kinda renders tractorbeams useless in combination with stabs on a hauler for ratting purposes...
AFAIK, you can offline your stabs when you're in the mission itself, and online them again when you're ready to travel again. Obviously that would do a PvPer who uses stabs no good, but it doesn't hurt industrials or PvEers that bad, no? -----------------------------------------------
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Horza Otho
Minmatar Silver Star Federation
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:59:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Originally by: lofty29
"matter of decency."
"Dont logout, you just ruin other people's fun."
Dude, you saying all that just made me rofl irl :)
quite a show of selective morals eh? --- Eris Discordia is miiiiiine |
Viktoria Maher
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Posted - 2006.10.25 02:54:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Popsikle
http://www.eveinfo.com
Being a noob has nothign to do with not using all the resources you have at your finger tips. Thats just being dumb. By the time you get to level 4's, or doing missions in a raven, you really shouldnt be a noob anymore.
Eveinfo would be useful were it actually up-to-date.
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Viktoria Maher
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Posted - 2006.10.25 03:00:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Know what? I've never had a single problem with player pirates while missioning. How are they supposed to catch you, in the first place?
Lucky you. How do you overcome station-camping pirates, or gank-squads on the other side of gates?
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Nikla Uthaan
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 03:12:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Patch86
AFAIK, you can offline your stabs when you're in the mission itself, and online them again when you're ready to travel again. Obviously that would do a PvPer who uses stabs no good, but it doesn't hurt industrials or PvEers that bad, no?
Yes, it does, remember it's 95% cap level before you can online something.
Stabs are useful if you suddenly get full room aggro thanks to a 'bug' (used loosely coz i dont see it as a bug, but i'd be argued to the ground very quickly). When you're tanking like all hell, 95% cap is not something you have on hand.
Avoiding pvp, the WCS nerfs are fine. For pvp, wtf are you doing with stabs anyway? shouldnt you be maximising your gank/tank for taking out others?
IMO WCS nerf is basically just another unthought wave of the nerf bat in the direction of mission runenrs. ----------------- One word,, emo,,,
The Mishing is an ethnic group in the districts of North Lakhimpur, Sonitput, Dhemaji, Dibrugarh, Sibsagar, Jorhat, Golaghat, Tinsukia of Assam. |
Jones Maloy
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.25 03:14:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Tovarishch CCPs solution to the WCS problem is, to be honest, brilliant.
Anyone interested in a fight should be smart enough to not fit them... while anyone who simply wants to get the Hell out is free to fit all the WCSs that they want.
The problem was that combat ships were fitting them in order to reduce the risk of a loss... with no penalty whatsoever. This solution almost entirely eliminates that problem.
if you think stabs don't have a penalty then i guess autocannons and mwd's don't either. it's called fitting requirements.
1pg, 30 cpu, 1 low-slot. if you want to lock me down use up one of your precious mids to fit another scram.
4 pts of scram must be countered by using 4 pg, 120 cpu, and 4 low-slots. to get 4 pts of scram you need to use up 2 pg, 60 cpu, 2 mids, and 2 cap/sec.
that seems balanced to me. half the fitting requirements, 2 mids instead of 2 lows, and 2 cap/sec instead of using up another 2 lows. i'd trade take 2 cap/sec drain over using 2 low-slots any day of the week.
i honestly don't see a debate here. there isn't much room for one --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec |
Jones Maloy
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.25 03:19:00 -
[120]
now supposedly "abusing" the power of stabs to pick a fight and then run when things go south has nothing to do with balance. it's like nerfing missles because ravens use them to pop slowboaters at gates. don't nerf a mod because some people find very powerful ways to use it that are in no way unbalenced. suprise that next stababond with 3 scrams. don't nerf wcs. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec |
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