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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2066
|
Posted - 2015.04.08 23:41:10 -
[271] - Quote
Rowells wrote:MeBiatch wrote:I was thinking about this too. I think the onus should be on the attacking alliance not the defending alliance . Let me explain. One of the things i hate about the current system is you have to rep structures. In the new system even if the other side doesn't show ypu still have to do the 10 annoms per reinforced structure . This imo is bad design. I think if the attacking alliance does not show for the fight you shouldn't be forced to rep/elink stuff.
I would make the first 5 capture annoms have a 30 min lifetime If no elink from the opposing alliace is initiated in any 5 annoms.
This way you only have to active defense when the enemy shows and limits the other side of the grind Will there even be capture points in wh space?
Not from what i understand unless they group wh systems into constellations.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
|
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
815
|
Posted - 2015.04.08 23:51:39 -
[272] - Quote
How is it off topic to point out what the new FOTM would be after this change goes into play, and to reply to the incorrect points you attempted to bring up? I will wager you 500m that Boot Domis and Pantheons will be FOTM for Entosis Sov. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2020
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 01:15:16 -
[273] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:How is it off topic to point out what the new FOTM would be after this change goes into play, and to reply to the incorrect points you attempted to bring up? I will wager you 500m that Boot Domis and Pantheons will be FOTM for Entosis Sov. You did notice you can't RR someone using the Entosis, you seem to have missed that small issue in your theories. And so people will field BS's and Capitals in Entosis Sov, that's a 'bad' thing having people field full fleets? And here I thought most people were complaining that no-one will field anything of value. |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
816
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 02:24:38 -
[274] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:How is it off topic to point out what the new FOTM would be after this change goes into play, and to reply to the incorrect points you attempted to bring up? I will wager you 500m that Boot Domis and Pantheons will be FOTM for Entosis Sov. You did notice you can't RR someone using the Entosis, you seem to have missed that small issue in your theories. And so people will field BS's and Capitals in Entosis Sov, that's a 'bad' thing having people field full fleets? And here I thought most people were complaining that no-one will field anything of value. The Domis and Pantheons would be used to control the grid, not necessarily to hold the Entosis link itself. It's a "bad thing" when it's "Whoever manages to deploy their Archons first gets the system". There's a reason the Pantheon doctrine was so powerful that BL or whoever was going to drop sniper Alpha Naglfars instead of DPS Moros: Serious EHP coupled with capital RR and 1100 DPS Sentry Drones (if my math's correct), and the ability to refit on-the-spot to boot! |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2066
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 02:26:46 -
[275] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:How is it off topic to point out what the new FOTM would be after this change goes into play, and to reply to the incorrect points you attempted to bring up? I will wager you 500m that Boot Domis and Pantheons will be FOTM for Entosis Sov. You did notice you can't RR someone using the Entosis, you seem to have missed that small issue in your theories. And so people will field BS's and Capitals in Entosis Sov, that's a 'bad' thing having people field enveloping fleet sizes resulting in an Apex force? And here I thought most people were complaining that no-one will want to fight in tidi forever.
FYP
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
|
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2066
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 02:29:12 -
[276] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:How is it off topic to point out what the new FOTM would be after this change goes into play, and to reply to the incorrect points you attempted to bring up? I will wager you 500m that Boot Domis and Pantheons will be FOTM for Entosis Sov. You did notice you can't RR someone using the Entosis, you seem to have missed that small issue in your theories. And so people will field BS's and Capitals in Entosis Sov, that's a 'bad' thing having people field full fleets? And here I thought most people were complaining that no-one will field anything of value. The Domis and Pantheons would be used to control the grid, not necessarily to hold the Entosis link itself. It's a "bad thing" when it's "Whoever manages to deploy their Archons first gets the system". There's a reason the Pantheon doctrine was so powerful that BL or whoever was going to drop sniper Alpha Naglfars instead of DPS Moros: Serious EHP coupled with capital RR and 1100 DPS Sentry Drones (if my math's correct), the ability to refit on-the-spot, two pickles, ketchup, hold the onions, on a sesame seed bun.
how about this the extra drone or fighter per level for the carrier bonus gets changed to fighter per level. that way you can only use 5 sentries or 10 if you use 5 drone control units. so take that 1100 dps and change it to 550
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
|
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
818
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 02:34:36 -
[277] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:how about this the extra drone or fighter per level for the carrier bonus gets changed to fighter per level. that way you can only use 5 sentries or 10 if you use 5 drone control units. so take that 1100 dps and change it to 550
OK..... that's still ~5000 DPS assigned to each Loki. 255 / fleet, call it 230 for actual people non-boosting (i dont know the actual numbers) that's 23 "squads" of 9 carriers + 1 loki, which equals 115,000 DPS / 255 man fleet. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2066
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 03:23:42 -
[278] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:MeBiatch wrote:how about this the extra drone or fighter per level for the carrier bonus gets changed to fighter per level. that way you can only use 5 sentries or 10 if you use 5 drone control units. so take that 1100 dps and change it to 550 OK..... that's still ~5000 DPS assigned to each Loki. 255 / fleet, call it 230 for actual people non-boosting (i dont know the actual numbers) that's 23 "squads" of 9 carriers + 1 loki, which equals 115,000 DPS / 255 man fleet.
yeah and you are going to have 1020 pilots for each structure capture? remember you need to take 10 annoms over the constellation and you get 5 annoms at a time.
so that 115,000 dps is really 23000 per annom that you are defending in your home region.
moreover if ccp added my ideas on RR then those loki's would be meat and your carriers would have to self target. and at that point a bunch of celestis will shut the fleet down... which will mean you need a fleet to clear the celestis. which means they need to a fleet to counter that and so on...
its simple fix RR and the new system is promising... if you dont then you are just replacing structure grind with elink grind only difference is the use of the apex force.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
|
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
818
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 04:31:51 -
[279] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:yeah and you are going to have 1020 pilots for each structure capture? remember you need to take 10 annoms over the constellation and you get 5 annoms at a time. example you have a system with an ihub an outpost and a tcu... each come out around the same time you now have 15 active capture annoms around 5 systems.... you have to figure out how to divide your forces... now lets say that all 5 systems have all been reinforced and everything comes out at the same time now you have 5x3= 15 x 5 =75 capture annoms over the constallation. so that 115,000 dps is really 1533dps per annom. moreover if ccp added my ideas on RR then those loki's would be meat and your carriers would have to self target. and at that point a bunch of celestis will shut the fleet down... which will mean you need a fleet to clear the celestis. which means they need to a fleet to counter that and so on... its simple fix RR and the new system is promising... if you dont then you are just replacing structure grind with elink grind only difference is the use of the apex force. No, you just need 1x fleet per gate, really, with a smattering of insta-locking ceptors and a handful of bubbles in a cargo container or two. And you're assuming there's only 1x 255-man fleet in system. We pushed 6-700 last system, and I don't know how many we crammed into ZXB. Additionally, a seriously tanked Loki has 500K+ EHP with Mid Slaves, IIRC. You can swap to 1m EHP long-point Proteii easily. It doesn't matter how small it's sig is if 9x archons are sending 1x Capital Repper (1500 / cycle) his way; he'll get his reps and eat his cake too.
As for Celestis: Remote Sensor Boosters are a thing. Same with Falcons and Projected ECCM. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2020
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 09:13:36 -
[280] - Quote
And? If you want to push that much into a system/constellation you should win, and obviously you care about that location. You are trying to argue that superior numbers of heavy fleets shouldn't win.
The point of the Entosis link is that you don't have to escalate that high just to structure grind, not that you can't. |
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Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
818
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 12:26:23 -
[281] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:And? If you want to push that much into a system/constellation you should win, and obviously you care about that location. You are trying to argue that superior numbers of heavy fleets shouldn't win. The point of the Entosis link is that you don't have to escalate that high just to structure grind, not that you can't.
Except that they *will* escalate 100% of the time. For the last five blockade bashes I was on, we moved into position at least a half-hour early with Boot Domis and Napocs and parked our fleets on each gate, with a Harpy fleet patrolling outside and a supercap fleet inside ready to backup whichever Domi fleet got attacked. The Harpies dealt with anything sub-BC, the Domis dropped their drones and went to watch football, and the supercaps did the structure grind. What makes anyone here think that this combined force will not continue to happen? Combined arms has been military tactics since donkeys years, and it used to be the thing in EVE as well until carriers became so prevalent. CCP's wishing themselves back before capital proliferation, back to when a titan kill was talked about for the rest of the month. Unfortunately, it won't work.
e: And we pushed so much into a system that Darkness / Kadeshi didn't dare attempt to contest us. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
251
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 13:18:55 -
[282] - Quote
I think the idea of entosis is to cause a state where it's relatively easy to go round the side of big fleets, and start harassing their home systems, so the attackers also need to consider their own defense, if only from small nuisances
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
64
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 14:41:11 -
[283] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:And? If you want to push that much into a system/constellation you should win, and obviously you care about that location. You are trying to argue that superior numbers of heavy fleets shouldn't win. The point of the Entosis link is that you don't have to escalate that high just to structure grind, not that you can't. Except that they *will* escalate 100% of the time. For the last five blockade bashes I was on, we moved into position at least a half-hour early with Boot Domis and Napocs and parked our fleets on each gate, with a Harpy fleet patrolling outside and a supercap fleet inside ready to backup whichever Domi fleet got attacked. The Harpies dealt with anything sub-BC, the Domis dropped their drones and went to watch football, and the supercaps did the structure grind. What makes anyone here think that this combined force will not continue to happen? Combined arms has been military tactics since donkeys years, and it used to be the thing in EVE as well until carriers became so prevalent. CCP's wishing themselves back before capital proliferation, back to when a titan kill was talked about for the rest of the month. Unfortunately, it won't work. e: And we pushed so much into a system that Darkness / Kadeshi didn't dare attempt to contest us. So... what exactly is the problem with that scenario?
If you can field a fleet that your opponents can't outfight or outmanoeuvre, you deserve to win the battle. If you've got enough pilots and resources that you can consistently field a fleet that powerful for every fight, then you win the war. The entosis link mechanics as written don't change any of that, except to make 'outmanoeuvre them' a (potentially) viable strategy by adding multiple targets spread out over the whole constellation. As far as I can see, that means that they're are working as intended.
Now, if you're saying that the first-on-grid advantage makes it too easy to create the aforementioned unbeatable defense, I'd probably agree with you ... but it seems to me that the problem is with the general combat mechanics, not the entosis link specifically.
In fact, I'd argue that it's improving the situation. Not necessarily fixing it entirely, but it at least adds two new options for making carrier-backed heavy fleets less effective: outflank the fleet with mobile units (BLOPs and covert cynos?), and capture nodes elsewhere in the constellation, and/or pick off the entosis-equipped ships while they're unable to be repped to slow down the enemy's capture progress. |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
818
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 15:35:09 -
[284] - Quote
The problem is that it will discourage any form of confrontation. Go up to any FC and ask him if he'll jump into a system where the defenders are from an alliance known to utilize sentries to their fullest extend, has the numbers to easily put 700 people into a system on a whim, and has supercapital support in-system.
CCP wanted to make Entosis sov encourage battles, but it's going to be similar to "jam yesterday, jam today, and damned if there wont be jam tomorrow". Oh sure, there's going to be some systems changing hands, but those will be either from smaller alliances as they consolidate and possibly move around, but larger coalitions like GSF can quickly mobilize defense fleets and use our extensive JB network and use titan bridges to run around and swat flies. I'm not saying this won't prevent new alliances from forming, but I am saying they're going to live under the constant thread of GSF or N3 or whoever rolling through one day and perma-camping the system till it breaks 24/7. |
Tejoe Nightstar
Society of Mechanics Engineers and Gearheads
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 16:10:21 -
[285] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:The problem is that it will discourage any form of confrontation. Go up to any FC and ask him if he'll jump into a system where the defenders are from an alliance known to utilize sentries to their fullest extend, has the numbers to easily put 700 people into a system on a whim, and has supercapital support in-system.
CCP wanted to make Entosis sov encourage battles, but it's going to be similar to "jam yesterday, jam today, and damned if there wont be jam tomorrow". Oh sure, there's going to be some systems changing hands, but those will be either from smaller alliances as they consolidate and possibly move around, but larger coalitions like GSF can quickly mobilize defense fleets and use our extensive JB network and use titan bridges to run around and swat flies. I'm not saying this won't prevent new alliances from forming, but I am saying they're going to live under the constant thread of GSF or N3 or whoever rolling through one day and perma-camping the system till it breaks 24/7.
Two options to combat that: 1) The universe isn't big enough. Add six to eight new regions that need to explored/found through a deep probe like activiity, possibly augmented by Observatory Arrays. The new regions would be linked through player built gates (destructible) other than one or two NPC outposts with a link of NPC built gates (indestructible) to NPC space.
2) Size based primetime. If a corp/alliance is at 500 or less, its prime time will be 4 hours. It will up from there maxing out at 8 hours for corp/alliances that are over 20,000. Or reduce the size based max to 6 hours but add 1 hour if there are any war-decs on them and add 1-+ hours if they have war-decced someone else. |
SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
284
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 16:58:11 -
[286] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:The problem is that it will discourage any form of confrontation. Go up to any FC and ask him if he'll jump into a system where the defenders are from an alliance known to utilize sentries to their fullest extend, has the numbers to easily put 700 people into a system on a whim, and has supercapital support in-system.
CCP wanted to make Entosis sov encourage battles, but it's going to be similar to "jam yesterday, jam today, and damned if there wont be jam tomorrow". Oh sure, there's going to be some systems changing hands, but those will be either from smaller alliances as they consolidate and possibly move around, but larger coalitions like GSF can quickly mobilize defense fleets and use our extensive JB network and use titan bridges to run around and swat flies. I'm not saying this won't prevent new alliances from forming, but I am saying they're going to live under the constant thread of GSF or N3 or whoever rolling through one day and perma-camping the system till it breaks 24/7.
If CCP's plan works and the new mechanics force a spread of defensive fleet constellation-wide (and further because why would you just hit one constellation?), then I think that this certainly will encourage some really nice battles. It's going to turn entities like Goons into the content-delivering foes we want them to be....or they can eat their 'weaponized boredom' while stuff gets flipped. |
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
1272
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 17:03:35 -
[287] - Quote
They will give us a new tool and it is our job to use this tool and maybe there will be the need to balance this new Sov system. Maybe it will work like they have planned it now. Give it time, and enjoy it. I am pretty interested in the new mechanics and additionally they are planning to make structures destructible.
Sure, 700 players could blob and play laggy PvP in one system, but what happens meanwhile in the other ENEMY home systems far far away? |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
818
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 17:24:22 -
[288] - Quote
Tejoe Nightstar wrote:Two options to combat that: 1) The universe isn't big enough. Add six to eight new regions that need to explored/found through a deep probe like activiity, possibly augmented by Observatory Arrays. The new regions would be linked through player built gates (destructible) other than one or two NPC outposts with a link of NPC built gates (indestructible) to NPC space.
2) Size based primetime. If a corp/alliance is at 500 or less, its prime time will be 4 hours. It will up from there maxing out at 8 hours for corp/alliances that are over 20,000. Or reduce the size based max to 6 hours but add 1 hour if there are any war-decs on them and add 1-+ hours if they have war-decced someone else.
1) There are entire constellations of EVE that's completely devoid of players right now. Balance the rats, loot, and anoms, and people will spread out more.
2) The CFC spans the entire worldwide TZ in one way or another. The only way I see to take a system (for a day) from the CFC under FozzieSov is to wait until AU TZ, just after DT if needed, and pick off a system before anyone can form a response fleet. But then, you get to witness alarm-clock ops in action when the CFC decides they really want that system back. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6708
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 18:09:41 -
[289] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:They will give us a new tool and it is our job to use this tool and maybe there will be the need to balance this new Sov system. Maybe it will work like they have planned it now. Give it time, and enjoy it. I am pretty interested in the new mechanics and additionally they are planning to make structures destructible.
Sure, 700 players could blob and play laggy PvP in one system, but what happens meanwhile in the other ENEMY home systems far far away? There's probably another 700 players blobbing and playing laggy "PvP" in that system as well.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Varyah
I am Forever of the Stars
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 23:44:36 -
[290] - Quote
I'd imagine this was already mentioned. I didn't read the 15 pages.
Why the restriction on remote assist?
I don't quite see a reason to activate the entosis link before the enemy is wiped of the grid?
As attacker you have to think about how many entosis-ships you are bringing, too few and you might lose them all and gained probably nothing. If you try to actively use entosis throughout the fight the entosis ships are easy pickings without remote reps and probably explode right away. Why make your ships vulnerable if you are fighting for control?
As defender you have the advantage that you have shorter supply routes and can reship in entosis-ships faster thus the attacker will loose in a perfectly balanced fight. But wouldn't that mean nobody will even bother to bring their entosis-ships on grid before the fight is won?
Am I missing something?
If it is control of the grid you want to measure, why does the method of measuring control entail reducing the strength of your fleet (vulnerable entosis-ship) which means less control? (I know quantum mechanics and measurement means influencing the state. But this is not quantum mechanics.)
If you want to avoid deadlocks with this restriction I am sure there are better ways. |
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
353
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 06:24:05 -
[291] - Quote
Varyah wrote:I'd imagine this was already mentioned. I didn't read the 15 pages.
Why the restriction on remote assist?
I don't quite see a reason to activate the entosis link before the enemy is wiped of the grid?
As attacker you have to think about how many entosis-ships you are bringing, too few and you might lose them all and gained probably nothing. If you try to actively use entosis throughout the fight the entosis ships are easy pickings without remote reps and probably explode right away. Why make your ships vulnerable if you are fighting for control?
As defender you have the advantage that you have shorter supply routes and can reship in entosis-ships faster thus the attacker will loose in a perfectly balanced fight. But wouldn't that mean nobody will even bother to bring their entosis-ships on grid before the fight is won?
Am I missing something?
If it is control of the grid you want to measure, why does the method of measuring control entail reducing the strength of your fleet (vulnerable entosis-ship) which means less control? (I know quantum mechanics and measurement means influencing the state. But this is not quantum mechanics.)
If you want to avoid deadlocks with this restriction I am sure there are better ways.
I think you've more or less hit the nail on the head here. As CCP said, the point is to force the side that's winning the Entosis contest to control the grid, and keeping a ship on grid and running a Link unsupported for a period of time with no enemy Entosis is a fairly good measure of controlling the grid here. |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
247
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 09:41:46 -
[292] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Varyah wrote:I'd imagine this was already mentioned. I didn't read the 15 pages.
Why the restriction on remote assist?
I don't quite see a reason to activate the entosis link before the enemy is wiped of the grid?
As attacker you have to think about how many entosis-ships you are bringing, too few and you might lose them all and gained probably nothing. If you try to actively use entosis throughout the fight the entosis ships are easy pickings without remote reps and probably explode right away. Why make your ships vulnerable if you are fighting for control?
As defender you have the advantage that you have shorter supply routes and can reship in entosis-ships faster thus the attacker will loose in a perfectly balanced fight. But wouldn't that mean nobody will even bother to bring their entosis-ships on grid before the fight is won?
Am I missing something?
If it is control of the grid you want to measure, why does the method of measuring control entail reducing the strength of your fleet (vulnerable entosis-ship) which means less control? (I know quantum mechanics and measurement means influencing the state. But this is not quantum mechanics.)
If you want to avoid deadlocks with this restriction I am sure there are better ways. I think you've more or less hit the nail on the head here. As CCP said, the point is to force the side that's winning the Entosis contest to control the grid, and keeping a ship on grid and running a Link unsupported for a period of time with no enemy Entosis is a fairly good measure of controlling the grid here.
Think of it like this. You run the other fleet off grid, but they leave a scout on grid and see that some of the ships have started activating the entosis link. The defenders then switch into a) bombers b) Sniper ABCs c) Sniper HACs d) CODE gank cats e) gank comets f) DERPTRONS! etc and proceed to gank all of the entosis linking ships because they're stuck on grid and can't receive reps.
You hold the grid, but the defenders still have every chance to make you not be able to capture the node. That's exactly why remote reps can't be used because the give the defender a chance even thought you have thousands of ships all set up with sentries out. Now if you start using your titans to capture the node....well lets just hope PL/other Super Cap entity gets wind and is interested.
--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
2050
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 10:26:44 -
[293] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:Varyah wrote:I'd imagine this was already mentioned. I didn't read the 15 pages.
Why the restriction on remote assist?
I don't quite see a reason to activate the entosis link before the enemy is wiped of the grid?
As attacker you have to think about how many entosis-ships you are bringing, too few and you might lose them all and gained probably nothing. If you try to actively use entosis throughout the fight the entosis ships are easy pickings without remote reps and probably explode right away. Why make your ships vulnerable if you are fighting for control?
As defender you have the advantage that you have shorter supply routes and can reship in entosis-ships faster thus the attacker will loose in a perfectly balanced fight. But wouldn't that mean nobody will even bother to bring their entosis-ships on grid before the fight is won?
Am I missing something?
If it is control of the grid you want to measure, why does the method of measuring control entail reducing the strength of your fleet (vulnerable entosis-ship) which means less control? (I know quantum mechanics and measurement means influencing the state. But this is not quantum mechanics.)
If you want to avoid deadlocks with this restriction I am sure there are better ways. I think you've more or less hit the nail on the head here. As CCP said, the point is to force the side that's winning the Entosis contest to control the grid, and keeping a ship on grid and running a Link unsupported for a period of time with no enemy Entosis is a fairly good measure of controlling the grid here. Think of it like this. You run the other fleet off grid, but they leave a scout on grid and see that some of the ships have started activating the entosis link. The defenders then switch into a) bombers b) Sniper ABCs c) Sniper HACs d) CODE gank cats e) gank comets f) DERPTRONS! etc and proceed to gank all of the entosis linking ships because they're stuck on grid and can't receive reps. You hold the grid, but the defenders still have every chance to make you not be able to capture the node. That's exactly why remote reps can't be used because the give the defender a chance even thought you have thousands of ships all set up with sentries out. Now if you start using your titans to capture the node....well lets just hope PL/other Super Cap entity gets wind and is interested.
You can deal partly with that using bubbles and probing the fleet just offgrid and landing on them.
Sometimes whatyou describe will happen anyway. But if you do not nerf the ship with the entosis link, you will degenerate in exaclty the same fights we have today... or even worse... 1 T3 ship FULL TANK mode , and 50 logis.. and that scenario will become the standard battering ram.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
2050
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 10:27:50 -
[294] - Quote
Varyah wrote:I'd imagine this was already mentioned. I didn't read the 15 pages.
Why the restriction on remote assist?
I don't quite see a reason to activate the entosis link before the enemy is wiped of the grid?
As attacker you have to think about how many entosis-ships you are bringing, too few and you might lose them all and gained probably nothing. If you try to actively use entosis throughout the fight the entosis ships are easy pickings without remote reps and probably explode right away. Why make your ships vulnerable if you are fighting for control?
As defender you have the advantage that you have shorter supply routes and can reship in entosis-ships faster thus the attacker will loose in a perfectly balanced fight. But wouldn't that mean nobody will even bother to bring their entosis-ships on grid before the fight is won?
Am I missing something?
If it is control of the grid you want to measure, why does the method of measuring control entail reducing the strength of your fleet (vulnerable entosis-ship) which means less control? (I know quantum mechanics and measurement means influencing the state. But this is not quantum mechanics.)
If you want to avoid deadlocks with this restriction I am sure there are better ways.
because otherwise you will have fleets of 1 t3 and 50 logis ignoring the defenders and simply drilling trough the capture points.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
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Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
818
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Posted - 2015.04.10 12:24:12 -
[295] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:because otherwise you will have fleets of 1 t3 and 50 logis ignoring the defenders and simply drilling trough the capture points. What is "Coordinated Alpha Strike" for 800, Alex? |
Royally
MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels
9
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Posted - 2015.04.10 12:43:45 -
[296] - Quote
I think GSF pilots are too confident in their ability to hold onto all of their space because "numbers and organization". Sure, I'm 100% certain that the absolutely critical areas will receive adequate coverage, but it'll be impossible to hold onto all the outlying regions when the entrance bar gets lowered this much.
Its basicly a case of having a far shorter "warmup" phase prior to flipping a system here and there. I'm certain the CFC could deploy 5 or 6 full fleets if they have to, but that wont be enough when you have 10 to 15 flies swatting at sov in 7 different constellations. They could be engaged ofcourse, but unless one chooses to concentrate on one or two groups, they wont be horribly outblobbed anywhere.
That is why I think the pessimistic fozziesov predictions made in here are bogus. |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
818
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Posted - 2015.04.10 13:41:35 -
[297] - Quote
MoA telling GSF how to hold sov.......
On topic: We don't have to always deploy multiple 255man fleets for every system and timer. All we need is one inty scout to tell us how many people are invading, form up a suitable response fleet, and bridge them out. We have a bustling new-player corp filled with people who are discovering how much fun PVP is. Maybe with player-created gates and some of the other modules and whatnot, this might be a thing, but as it stands, it's bad. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
1266
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Posted - 2015.04.10 14:12:57 -
[298] - Quote
"Oh look, someone is flipping a system. Isn't that sweet?" "Come and fight us cowards!" "Why? We are already staged out of an NPC station and can come and flip the system back when it suits us just as easily as you are doing it now."
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Varyah
I am Forever of the Stars
9
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Posted - 2015.04.10 14:47:55 -
[299] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
because otherwise you will have fleets of 1 t3 and 50 logis ignoring the defenders and simply drilling trough the capture points.
There won't be any drilling because the defenders only need to tank 1 t3 and whatever dps 50 logis can do, which won't be much. So absolutely no problem tanking such a fleet and keeping your entosis up as well, i.e. at the worst: deadlock. But then again if both sides can't break the opposing fleet then neither side has control of the grid which is what we want to measure. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6708
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Posted - 2015.04.10 15:28:20 -
[300] - Quote
Varyah wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
because otherwise you will have fleets of 1 t3 and 50 logis ignoring the defenders and simply drilling trough the capture points.
There won't be any drilling because the defenders only need to tank 1 t3 and whatever dps 50 logis can do, which won't be much. So absolutely no problem tanking such a fleet and keeping your entosis up as well, i.e. at the worst: deadlock. But then again if both sides can't break the opposing fleet then neither side has control of the grid which is what we want to measure. Is the idea that the 50 logis are ... repping?? or what. Whoever has a link running can't be repped so they will probably die pretty fast unless they are speed tanking like ... well you know, a ship that can go really fast with a small sig radius or something
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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