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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Aiyshimin
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
497
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Posted - 2015.04.02 07:26:13 -
[61] - Quote
Good stuff, please fix Garmur and Orthrus next and delete RLMLs and never ever introduce weapons like that again. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2217
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Posted - 2015.04.02 07:41:57 -
[62] - Quote
have a T3 the destroyer they said.
Make a broken LSE Svipul fit they said. (well they didn't, but whatever)
76k EHP in a c4 Pulsar they said.
Nerf them they said.
Thanks, bro. Thankyou in the face.
Prolapse. Taking fights since 2014.
Sudden Buggery. Got duumb? Hola, Batmanuel!
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2217
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Posted - 2015.04.02 07:47:06 -
[63] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:These are really small changes, I'm not sure what sort of effect it'll have yet on fitting but none of these changes seem to gimp the ships too much, (at a glance).
Pffft, it just shows how little you know about anything. Like, are you living under a rock, with your foot in your ear? 10PG is the difference between LSE Svipul and not LSE Svipul.
it's the difference between 36K EHP, and 18K EHP. If that's not significant, nothing is.
Go back to dullard creche and relearn Fitting Gymnastics I.
Prolapse. Taking fights since 2014.
Sudden Buggery. Got duumb? Hola, Batmanuel!
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2015.04.02 07:58:39 -
[64] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Have to agree with this fine gentleman regarding the Sviipul - Even with the PG reduction, I think 10MN AB with the smallest caliber ACs is still possible with a good/great tank to boot. The whole point of AC is to not use much powergrid. The only way to make AC svipuls very hard to fit would be to make Arty IMPOSSIBLE to fit.
Artillery is indeed a concern here. Perhaps lower Small Arty PG requirements to compensate? How would that influence Arty Wolf/Thrashers?
Thanks
Aiyshimin wrote:Good stuff, please fix Garmur and Orthrus next and delete RLMLs and never ever introduce weapons like that again.
The lady is korrekt again. RLMLs are starting to grow like cancer - How come my Abaddon/Tempest doesn't get a bonus to Medium Pulses/ACs?
Cruisers Online afterall vOv
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels
646
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Posted - 2015.04.02 08:30:07 -
[65] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Saede Riordan wrote:These are really small changes, I'm not sure what sort of effect it'll have yet on fitting but none of these changes seem to gimp the ships too much, (at a glance). Pffft, it just shows how little you know about anything. Like, are you living under a rock, with your foot in your ear? 10PG is the difference between LSE Svipul and not LSE Svipul. it's the difference between 36K EHP, and 18K EHP. If that's not significant, nothing is. Go back to dullard creche and relearn Fitting Gymnastics I.
......aaaaaand that fit is still achievable with a "sheriff" LSE. Interesting. |
Miali Askulf
Black Rise Freight
1
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Posted - 2015.04.02 08:45:16 -
[66] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Altrue wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Have to agree with this fine gentleman regarding the Sviipul - Even with the PG reduction, I think 10MN AB with the smallest caliber ACs is still possible with a good/great tank to boot. The whole point of AC is to not use much powergrid. The only way to make AC svipuls very hard to fit would be to make Arty IMPOSSIBLE to fit. Artillery is indeed a concern here. Perhaps lower Small Arty PG requirements to compensate? How would that influence Arty Wolf/Thrashers? Thanks Aiyshimin wrote:Good stuff, please fix Garmur and Orthrus next and delete RLMLs and never ever introduce weapons like that again. The lady is korrekt again. R/HLMLs are starting to grow like cancer - How come my Abaddon/Tempest, Harbinger/Hurricane doesn't get a bonus to Medium/Small Pulses/ACs? Cruisers/T3Ds Online afterall vOv
The difference between AC and Arty fitting is too big (and not just small guns). It leads to pretty much all projectile fits being either arty + fitting mods + pretty much nothing else or ACs + *everything*... |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2015.04.02 09:11:15 -
[67] - Quote
Miali Askulf wrote: The difference between AC and Arty fitting is too big (and not just small guns). It leads to pretty much all projectile fits being either arty + fitting mods + pretty much nothing else
That has always been the case since the game's very inception: Tempests with 1400mms and two RCUs with the rest being all damage mods - no one ever bothered to fit any tank due to no stacking penalty on the the damage modules - Counter-Strike in space. However, in this day and age of solopwnmobiles, must have everything, tank too. (a+ç -á-¦ -ƒ+ä-£ -í-¦)a+ç
Someone has to figure it out, otherwise Svipul will be just a very expensive Arty Thrasher, and I mean "just" a Thrasher.
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1035
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:47:57 -
[68] - Quote
the actual issue here is oversized prop mods. why are they not being removed? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1035
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:49:17 -
[69] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Good stuff, please fix Garmur and Orthrus next and delete RLMLs and never ever introduce weapons like that again.
did you see that thing at fanfest where rise said he's ok with garmurs, because occasionally a very bad garmur pilot will die to a T1 frig? |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
34089
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:52:28 -
[70] - Quote
would have settled for twice the manufacturing requirements for such powerful destroyers.
we'll see what happens to 10mn AB fits. this is one of the things that the powergrid allows that makes these ships as powerful as they are.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! Join the fight!
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
34089
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:53:18 -
[71] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:Good stuff, please fix Garmur and Orthrus next and delete RLMLs and never ever introduce weapons like that again. did you see that thing at fanfest where rise said he's ok with garmurs, because occasionally a very bad garmur pilot will die to a T1 frig? did that also mention an orthrus dying to a T1 frig?
no?
rekt.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! Join the fight!
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Rek Seven
The Scope Gallente Federation
1969
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:53:33 -
[72] - Quote
Regarding the Confessor, please increase the cpu by around 10 so we don't have to rely on implants, rigs or crap mods.
+1
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1035
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:55:58 -
[73] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:Good stuff, please fix Garmur and Orthrus next and delete RLMLs and never ever introduce weapons like that again. did you see that thing at fanfest where rise said he's ok with garmurs, because occasionally a very bad garmur pilot will die to a T1 frig? did that also mention an orthrus dying to a T1 frig? no? rekt.
it's theoretically possible if the orthrus pilot is afk. no nerf required. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
108
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Posted - 2015.04.02 10:59:11 -
[74] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Regarding the Confessor, please increase the cpu by around 10 so we don't have to rely on implants, rigs or crap mods.
Which current setup doesn't fit CPU-wise?
I have DLP 10MN dual rep, DLB 10MN AAR and their equivalents with 1MN MWD in mind - All fit. I'll be honest - haven't tried SFP/Bs at all, because I'm a 10MN AB nanufaget.
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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Niden
Moira. Villore Accords
139
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Posted - 2015.04.02 11:04:35 -
[75] - Quote
No time to read 3 pages. People who think these nerfs are mild don't fly the ships. I won't speak about the Svipul, but for me the Confessor shouldn't have been hit this hard. It's already clearly inferior to the Svipul and will lose a lot of its interesting tactics once the nerf hits.
#savetheconfessor
/N
Moira corp | Villore Accords | Gallente militia |-á Lowlife on Crossing Zebras | @Niden_GMVA
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Inggroth
Aurora Ominae. The Gorgon Empire
40
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Posted - 2015.04.02 11:07:07 -
[76] - Quote
In my opinion base pg needs to be cut at least by 20%, as well as CPU if you want to actually see a change in meta. Also a DESTROYER with a single speed rig that warps in 3 seconds (2 if you change out of speed mode mid-align) is a bit ridiculous. |
Skurja Volpar
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
128
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Posted - 2015.04.02 11:09:29 -
[77] - Quote
Changes feel like a step the right direction, all in all they'll still be pretty ott in terms of what they can engage and the ships they effectively obsolete. I'm not sure this is enough but I'd love to be proved wrong.
Worried as the entire meta outside of big fleets feels like its starting to boil down to the latest batch of overpowered fotm new toys gifted from the devs, and the response seems to be "yeah they're op, enjoy!".
Tiercide created some amazing years of yolo frig destroyer and cruiser PVP, with a fuckload of diverse ships to choose from. But the sheer proliferation and dominance of t3ds when only half of them have been released feels like a regression back to 2011 balance over two point releases.
Still though good to see it's being looked at. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1036
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Posted - 2015.04.02 11:09:39 -
[78] - Quote
Niden wrote:No time to read 3 pages. People who think these nerfs are mild don't fly the ships. I won't speak about the Svipul, but for me the Confessor shouldn't have been hit this hard. It's already clearly inferior to the Svipul and will lose a lot of its interesting tactics once the nerf hits.
#savetheconfessor
/N
'interesting tactics' = brawling but without actually committing to anything, and making missiles (even more) utterly useless |
Helene Fidard
Iron Oxide.
22
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Posted - 2015.04.02 11:13:30 -
[79] - Quote
oh thank **** |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
34096
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Posted - 2015.04.02 11:15:10 -
[80] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:we ideally want that power and excitement to mainly come from the new mode switching mechanic, and less from the base stats of the ship outclassing its competition. make sure to increase the bonuses of the modes then.
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Mizhir
Matari Exodus
74191
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Posted - 2015.04.02 11:38:35 -
[81] - Quote
Good changes, but I fear that the Svipul nerfs will hit mwd arty fits much harder than the 10mn auto fits which are the biggest problem about the ship right now.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Rek Seven
The Scope Gallente Federation
1969
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Posted - 2015.04.02 12:08:00 -
[82] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Regarding the Confessor, please increase the cpu by around 10 so we don't have to rely on implants, rigs or crap mods. Which current setup doesn't fit CPU-wise? I have DLP 10MN dual rep, DLB 10MN AAR and their equivalents with 1MN MWD in mind - All fit. I'll be honest - haven't tried SFP/Bs at all, because I'm a 10MN AB nanufaget.
I use a passive fit but perhaps a active might work better... Still, the active one i have just made runs into cpu issues.
What dps are you getting or better yet, can i see your fit?
+1
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Drew Li
Space Exploitation Inc The Bastion
54
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Posted - 2015.04.02 12:18:33 -
[83] - Quote
Ned Thomas wrote:Drew Li wrote:Slightly off topic, but could you add a rig that reduces the powergrid of propulsion modules? That could allow a handful of ships to fit oversized prop mods, possibly even 100mn battlecruisers. That would still allow 10mn T3 destroyers, but they would be giving up rig slots to do so. The rigs would have to be more effective than stacking on a bunch of current routers and reactor controls to get grid. ..............you can't be serious. What's wrong with the suggestion? Granted the ability wouldn't be on par with what the status quo, but it would provide some interesting combinations. Even for the T3 destroyers you would be trading 37.5% of your EHP for an oversized prop mod, poor cap stability, and worse agility. Along with the proposed speed/agility changes that is a substantial hit. As for other hulls, there are very few that would have the cap stability or other necessary fitting requirements to make effective fits. HACs and T3s are the only platforms that would reasonably attempt it.
Ned Thomas wrote:The Sabre is more used than the Heretic.
That has a lot to do with why the Svipul is used more than the Confessor.
If you look at them both individually, they have a roughly 10 to 1 kill to death ratio. They're in pretty much the same place. I'd say the primary reason is that the only comparable ship being equal to a T3 destroyer is another destroyer. So you have one that deals EM/Therm damage shooting at the other with a ~90% EM/Therm resist and the ability to shoot any damage type. Not to mention more mids for tackle. |
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
40
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Posted - 2015.04.02 12:27:14 -
[84] - Quote
Firstly, I'll caveat what follows with I can speak from my experiences flying with and fighting against these hulls in low sec. I have no idea how these ships are being used in other areas of space or what their meta looks like there.
That said, the Confessor changes though are too harsh. The Confessor is actually a very challenging ship to fly as it is today. It's also quite vulnerable to neuts and tracking disrupters. I would urge you to remove the cap recharge nerf altogether on the ship and dial back the other nerfs to the ship considerably. Especially if you're nerfing cap rechargewhile simultaneously pushing people towards a 1MN MWD instead of a 10MN AB, the ship will have a tough time fitting into the speed meta in low sec and see virtually no usage after people expend their current stock of hulls.
I can however see the rationale for the Svipul changes. That ship is beyond over-powered at the moment. So while I love flying the Svipul right now, I agree that significant changes need to be made. Most noticeably to remove the dual armor rep fits.
Regarding price, I can see the rationale for the price increase for all D3s, I'm okay with this. In particular, I think it will help in steering more people into fielding T1 cruisers or assault frigates instead of D3s for some engagements. As it was, I think D3s were overshadowing those two groups for a bit there in the cost vs performance math we all do in our head before undocking.
Member of #tweetfleet @stalence //
Combat FRAPs on YouTube
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Canon Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.04.02 12:44:33 -
[85] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:The Confessor changes are *okay*. I'd much prefer the ship to be slower still.
The Svipul changes are a joke. The grid nerf does very little other than hinder artillery fits. AC fits are still broken as ****. The speed nerf is laughable. What is that, 10% when overloaded in speed mode? The Svipul needs to be SLAPPED.
Perhaps the more important question is, what the hell are these ships supposed to be comparable to? Even @ 50mil, the insurance payout makes them comparable to T1 Cruisers (with T2 mods), which other than a gimp fit, are woefully inept when it comes to taking on even a single T3D.
Hell, even with dual webs, a vanilla Svipul can still chug along @ 400+m/s in defensive mode No cruiser is tracking that.
And you want to give us more? Keep the nerfs coming.
totally agree, the powergrid nerf is just simple hinder the artillery fits. 10AB and dual ASB still very easy to fit by changing one powergrid rig. |
Niden
Moira. Villore Accords
139
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Posted - 2015.04.02 13:10:39 -
[86] - Quote
Stalence wrote:Firstly, I'll caveat what follows with I can speak from my experiences flying with and fighting against these hulls in low sec. I have no idea how these ships are being used in other areas of space or what their meta looks like there.
That said, the Confessor changes though are too harsh. The Confessor is actually a very challenging ship to fly as it is today. It's also quite vulnerable to neuts and tracking disrupters. I would urge you to remove the cap recharge nerf altogether on the ship and dial back the other nerfs to the ship considerably. Especially if you're nerfing cap rechargewhile simultaneously pushing people towards a 1MN MWD instead of a 10MN AB, the ship will have a tough time fitting into the speed meta in low sec and see virtually no usage after people expend their current stock of hulls.
I can however see the rationale for the Svipul changes. That ship is beyond over-powered at the moment. So while I love flying the Svipul right now, I agree that significant changes need to be made. Most noticeably to remove the dual armor rep fits.
Regarding price, I can see the rationale for the price increase for all D3s, I'm okay with this. In particular, I think it will help in steering more people into fielding T1 cruisers or assault frigates instead of D3s for some engagements. As it was, I think D3s were overshadowing those two groups for a bit there in the cost vs performance math we all do in our head before undocking.
So much this.
<3 Stalence
/N
Moira corp | Villore Accords | Gallente militia |-á Lowlife on Crossing Zebras | @Niden_GMVA
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Oddsodz
The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare.
152
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Posted - 2015.04.02 13:29:17 -
[87] - Quote
Did anybody just stop to think that the reason lots of players are using D3's is because they are good and FUN? And FUN is the reason for playing the game right? Just because lots of players are enjoying a ship SHOULD NOT mean that is has to have a nerf. I Am not a fan of any changes to the current D3's. I feel it is just another nerf to stuff I like but still failing to fix bigger issues like OGB that I hate. I Can deal with a hull cost increase. I feel that is justified. But to change any of the stats for the ship on how it flies is just a move backwards. The thing that folks like about the D3's is just how many way you CAN fit it. Same goes for when you want to kill one too. You just don't know what you are going up against until you are on grid and looking at it to see if it is shield or amour tanked, Arty or Autos, Beams, pulse. That is part of the fun of this ship.
TL'DR
Why nerf the fun things that players find fun? |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
326
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Posted - 2015.04.02 13:43:47 -
[88] - Quote
Oddsodz wrote:Did anybody just stop to think that the reason lots of players are using D3's is because they are good and FUN? And FUN is the reason for playing the game right? Just because lots of players are enjoying a ship SHOULD NOT mean that is has to have a nerf. I Am not a fan of any changes to the current D3's. I feel it is just another nerf to stuff I like but still failing to fix bigger issues like OGB that I hate. I Can deal with a hull cost increase. I feel that is justified. But to change any of the stats for the ship on how it flies is just a move backwards. The thing that folks like about the D3's is just how many way you CAN fit it. Same goes for when you want to kill one too. You just don't know what you are going up against until you are on grid and looking at it to see if it is shield or amour tanked, Arty or Autos, Beams, pulse. That is part of the fun of this ship.
TL'DR
Why nerf the fun things that players find fun?
Because a large part of the reason T3 Dessies are so fun right now is that they're at a significant advantage compared to the majority of things that have any chance of engaging one that doesn't want to be engaged. After this change they're still going to be fun, but they won't be "laugh all the way to the bank because you're fitting a 10MN AB with no significant trade-offs" fun. |
Xavier Azabu
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2015.04.02 14:15:51 -
[89] - Quote
Called it! Speed and PG for the win. +1
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/30dr3i/svipul_is_balanced/cps0xzv |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
112
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Posted - 2015.04.02 14:16:13 -
[90] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Regarding the Confessor, please increase the cpu by around 10 so we don't have to rely on implants, rigs or crap mods. Which current setup doesn't fit CPU-wise? I have DLP 10MN dual rep, DLB 10MN AAR and their equivalents with 1MN MWD in mind - All fit. I'll be honest - haven't tried SFP/Bs at all, because I'm a 10MN AB nanufaget. I use a passive fit but perhaps a active might work better... Still, the active one i have just made runs into cpu issues. What dps are you getting or better yet, can i see your fit?
Two of my first ones, 398 cold with Conflag and 35-ish CPU spare. No, a DB EANM doesn't give a higher DPS/tanked.
Quote:[Confessor, DLPulse - 2 SAR 10MN] Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating Small Armor Repairer II Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Scrambler II
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Expanded Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II Small Nanobot Accelerator II Small Ancillary Current Router I
Melt face, yes? However, a smart Slicer pilot will chew you down... in 20 minutes.
Quote:[Confessor, DLBeams - 10MN] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Internal Force Field Array I Nanofiber Internal Structure II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Expanded Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Energy Locus Coordinator II Small Ancillary Current Router I
Nanufaget, works a little bit better with 1MN MWD. Rigs to taste; 37/61 km with Aurora. Web <--> Scram is also pref.
Haven't used them in over 1.5 months, use spaceship fits at your own risk. vOv
Total EHP in both fits is around 6-6.5k, but that's how we roll brother,
GûæGûæGûæGûæGûäGûäGûäGûäGûÇGûÇGûÇGûÇGûÇGûÇGûÇGûÇGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûä GûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûæGûæGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûæGûæGûÇGûÇGûä GûæGûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûæGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûÆGûÆGûÆGûæGûæGûê GûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûäGûêGûêGûÇGûäGûäGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûäGûäGûäGûæGûæGûæGûê GûæGûÇGûÆGûäGûäGûäGûÆGûæGûêGûÇGûÇGûÇGûÇGûäGûäGûêGûæGûæGûæGûêGûêGûäGûäGûêGûæGûæGûæGûê GûêGûÆGûêGûÆGûäGûæGûÇGûäGûäGûäGûÇGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûæGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûê GûêGûÆGûêGûæGûêGûÇGûäGûäGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûÇGûæGûæGûæGûæGûÇGûäGûæGûæGûäGûÇGûÇGûÇGûäGûÆGûê GûæGûêGûÇGûäGûæGûêGûäGûæGûêGûÇGûäGûäGûæGûÇGûæGûÇGûÇGûæGûäGûäGûÇGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûê GûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûÇGûäGûÇGûêGûäGûäGûæGûêGûÇGûÇGûÇGûäGûäGûäGûäGûÇGûÇGûêGûÇGûêGûêGûæGûê GûæGûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûêGûêGûæGûæGûÇGûêGûäGûäGûäGûêGûäGûäGûêGûäGûêGûêGûêGûêGûæGûê GûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûæGûæGûæGûÇGûÇGûäGûæGûêGûæGûæGûæGûêGûæGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûæGûê GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûÇGûäGûæGûæGûæGûÇGûÇGûäGûäGûäGûêGûäGûêGûäGûêGûäGûêGûäGûÇGûæGûæGûê GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûÇGûäGûäGûæGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûê GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûÇGûÇGûäGûäGûæGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûÆGûæGûê GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûÇGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûê
( -í° -£-û -í°)
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