Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tian Toralen
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
31
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 11:12:52 -
[1] - Quote
A lot of players that never tried EVE before, see the long skillqueue, see the advantages of two +4 implants and they don't want to lose those implants, so they don't PVP, they stay in high-sec and get bored, then leave the game.
Learning implants are a real barrier for new players trying to enter null-sec. They need skills fast. They also need to pvp. They also need ISK and can't afford to lose 40 million each time they die. What to choose? Why do players have to make this choice: fun or isk ($$$) ?
So - remove learning implants, give us a +4 boost to all attributes. The money CCP will lose because of shorter training times will be a lot less than the money won because players fight, destroy more ships, are not afraid to PVP, have more fun and stay in the game. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3304
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 15:17:57 -
[2] - Quote
And what do you replace them with to avoid gutting the LP market?
Not saying I'm against the idea, but they're an LP and ISK sink that would probably want replacing. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12396
|
Posted - 2015.04.02 16:51:37 -
[3] - Quote
No, we're not going to crash the market just so some people can justify their obscene risk aversion.
Implants are a choice, and what's more they are a meaningful choice. That is a good thing.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
166
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 03:11:41 -
[4] - Quote
This certainly plays into the whole "do attributes serve a purpose?" angle. I'd venture to say no. They really don't serve a purpose other than to make the oldest players feel good about shuffling some arbitrary numbers around once a year.
Learning implants of course exacerbate the issue. I completely agree they should go, as they're a risk aversion multiplier and stupidly expensive way to suck time (the only really valuable resource) away from players. And of course older players have the most ISK to buy them, giving them an accelerating and compounding advantage over their existing skill point head start.
Learning implants can 100% be removed and replaced with pretty much any other implant and continue to supply meaningful choice, as well as ISK and LP sinks, into the game.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1927
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 04:08:21 -
[5] - Quote
I agree and even made a thread about it: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=336673
It has nothing to do with risk - I routinely PvP in much more expensive implants. They discourage the use of 'out in space and doing stuff' implants and should be removed. My preference would be to replace them with learning boosters made in lowsec.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Jon Dekker
Dekker Corporation
40
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 06:43:27 -
[6] - Quote
I support this. |
Sootsia
High Flyers The Kadeshi
8
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 13:02:06 -
[7] - Quote
WTF Y'all smoking? you seriously want something for nothing "give us a +4 boost to all attributes"
That makes the implants meaningless, oh right, that's your intention. Swing the nerf bat again CCP cause the kiddies can;t play in their sandbox without pooping in it.
Implants are supposed to cost you something,,,,, simply because they give you a advantage over another player, or allow you to compete on their level. If your afraid of getting podded every time you undock, then this game is not for you,. You want all the benefits of the implants, but not the risk, shame on you.
Soot |
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1878
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 13:42:04 -
[8] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:This certainly plays into the whole "do attributes serve a purpose?" angle. I'd venture to say no. They really don't serve a purpose other than to make the oldest players feel good about shuffling some arbitrary numbers around once a year.
Learning implants of course exacerbate the issue. I completely agree they should go, as they're a risk aversion multiplier and stupidly expensive way to suck time (the only really valuable resource) away from players. And of course older players have the most ISK to buy them, giving them an accelerating and compounding advantage over their existing skill point head start.
Learning implants can 100% be removed and replaced with pretty much any other implant and continue to supply meaningful choice, as well as ISK and LP sinks, into the game. the myth that older players somehow get this compounding/accelerated advantage with implants is false
all implants do ocne you have 20+ mil is somewhat mitigate the obscene amount of time that you now have to devote to each skill to get it leveled, ratio wise per skill were advancing just as fast as a noob, SP wise were going up faster, but thats because we have more distance to cover per skill than the new guys
not to mention they are currently an LP/ISK sink, and id venture to say probably one of the larger LP store sinks |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
167
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 14:18:55 -
[9] - Quote
Sootsia wrote:WTF Y'all smoking? you seriously want something for nothing "give us a +4 boost to all attributes"
That makes the implants meaningless, oh right, that's your intention. Swing the nerf bat again CCP cause the kiddies can;t play in their sandbox without pooping in it.
Implants are supposed to cost you something,,,,, simply because they give you a advantage over another player, or allow you to compete on their level. If your afraid of getting podded every time you undock, then this game is not for you,. You want all the benefits of the implants, but not the risk, shame on you.
Soot
As someone flying around regularly with 500m to 2b in implants I assure you I appreciate the risk/reward they provide. However there's a difference between hardwires and pirate implants that affect gameplay and learning implants you can plug into a market trading alt that doesn't undock. Theres no reason attribute implants can't be swapped for something with more meaningful gameplay impact.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
|
Mag's
the united
19228
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 14:23:42 -
[10] - Quote
While I can see and agree to some extent on some arguments, for the removal of learning implants and attributes. NONE of them include the ridiculous notion, that they somehow stopped people from PvP.
Let's make one thing clear here, you are gaining a BONUS in training by wearing them. If you wish for that bonus to be permanent for all, then remove attributes and give everyone a fixed training amount per hour for all skills. Just stop with the whole "I can't PvP with them in" bulls**t.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
|
Gorski Car
556
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 22:03:57 -
[11] - Quote
http://gorsking.blogspot.se/2015/04/on-attributes-and-implants.html
Collect this post
|
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
168
|
Posted - 2015.04.04 01:16:45 -
[12] - Quote
Gorski Car wrote:http://gorsking.blogspot.se/2015/04/on-attributes-and-implants.html
100% agree with this article.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
|
Adunh Slavy
1607
|
Posted - 2015.04.04 05:23:47 -
[13] - Quote
Sootsia wrote:WTF Y'all smoking? you seriously want something for nothing "give us a +4 boost to all attributes"
Why would anyone have to get +4? Why not just zero?
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
207
|
Posted - 2015.04.04 14:41:58 -
[14] - Quote
+1
The attributes/remap system is bad because it forces to decide between combat and support skills if actually used, else there exists an optimal average mapping. Learning implants do nothing to help you when undocked and pose a form of pay-to-win or keep safe in the game for younger players where every skill level counts. They have to go together with the attribute enhancements of the pirate sets. Everybody shall have the same flat skill training rate for all skills, which is what you get from your subscription money. Then there is plenty of room to create a whole new system around the free implant slots ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Aliventi
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.06 19:47:09 -
[15] - Quote
CCP needs to remove learning implants and not replace them with anything. The truth is that leaning implants add nothing meaningful to the game, are a terrible choice to make, encourage risk averse behavior, and removing them from the game would actually improve Eve without dumbing Eve down.
Let's start with choices. Eve is not a game of choices. If you think Eve is a game of choices you are wrong. Eve is a game of meaningful choices. That is a huge distinction. A meaningful choice is choice that affects the Eve universe beyond yourself. For example the choice to fit an AB instead of an MWD is a meaningful choice. Your decision now is going to affect the fight you and others are going to have in a matter of minutes. You decisions during that fight are meaningful choices. What you do after that fight will likely be a series of meaningful choices.
Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, PvP, PvE, market trading, etc. Place yourself in that situation with another person. Ask yourself these simple questions: Does that player having no learning implants affect this situation? What if they have a set of +1 implants? +5 implants? Under no circumstances does their decision to use learning implants affect your gameplay at all. Some of you are going to argue that if you podded said player with +5 implants you would feel good because you destroyed something of high value they had. You will miss the fact that it wasn't the learning implants that affected your gameplay, but the value of those implants. If we set the value to 0 they would have little to no effect at all. Learning implants are still not a meaningful choice.
Clone grades were a choice between losing isk or losing SP. That is a terrible choice to make. CCP rightly removed clone grades from the game because of the poor choice they presented, among other things. Learning implants are the exact same choice that was presented in clone grades: lose isk or lose SP. Imagine there was a third choice added. This third choice is a "no change" choice. So if I offered you the choice between losing your isk, losing your SP, and doing nothing and losing nothing. A majority of people would chose to lose nothing. That may seem a little extreme, but the point is that anytime where the choice of "do nothing and lose nothing" is the best choice it should be altered to not be the best choice. In fact the do nothing choice became the only option for clone grades and people rejoiced because a terrible choice was removed.
Learning implants encourage risk averse gameplay. I have trained many pilots to PvP over the years. One of the biggest issues is that the players, who often don't have lots of isk, would rather stay in highsec where they can use their learning implants to gain skills quickly than PvP or do something where those implants would be at risk. People should be out enjoying the game, creating content for themselves and others. It isn't hard to see that removing learning implants will get more people out into space and doing things in space. One of the biggest arguments to removing clone grades, argued mainly by nullsec and lowsec PvPers, was that a 15+ mil isk clone was enough to get people to not fly small ships. It isn't hard to see why 40 mil isk in two +4 implants is discouraging PvP just as much as clone grades were.
Ask yourself: if learning implants were removed, and we were given a flat SP/hour that compensated for their removal, would Eve be better or worse off? I will argue that it would be better off. A meaningless and terrible choice is no longer present, more people are out doing risky activities while gaining the max SP/hour they can, and more content is generated. There are surprisingly minimal costs to removing learning implants. We lost a few LP store items. I am sure CCP can fix that. Other than that... it is all gains. (feel free to let me know if I missed costs.)
The bottom line is that Eve will be better off if learning implants are removed. I hope CCP can see that removing learning implants is really in the best interest of the game. I ask players that agree to speak to their CSM representatives and get them to urge CCP to remove learning implants. |
Thonys Visser
Green Visstick High
5
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 12:29:29 -
[16] - Quote
Tian Toralen wrote:A lot of players that never tried EVE before, see the long skillqueue, see the advantages of two +4 implants and they don't want to lose those implants, so they don't PVP, they stay in high-sec and get bored, then leave the game.
Learning implants are a real barrier for new players trying to enter null-sec. They need skills fast. They also need to pvp. They also need ISK and can't afford to lose 40 million each time they die. What to choose? Why do players have to make this choice: fun or isk ($$$) ?
So - remove learning implants, give us a +4 boost to all attributes. The money CCP will lose because of shorter training times will be a lot less than the money won because players fight, destroy more ships, are not afraid to PVP, have more fun and stay in the game.
i think it can be solved much easyer..
if you bought a implant and your pod is destroyed:>>
you will have a copy in your clonebay to be used again , i think that would be a much more smarter thing to do in that case you keep the market going and you will have more choices for the next clone in the clone bay and you are not affraid of losing 800 + mil of isk the next time ,so pvp can be more atractive for the people who dont pvp because of that.. so taking the pvp "willingness" away from the clone... improves the game and yes i am a miner in hs > and refuse to get killed in low (because of the expensive cloon stuff),and yes this game is very boring for me to ...
so this is a good topic ..but ccp is not intrested in this kind of behaviour or topics it is so called player driven they say , ...but it is not...they make money on it so they keep it this way ..
but also a lot of people disapear from the game after a while and thats true to
for me personaly my last goal is on the way (own build charon) ,and after that there is none (for me in hs) annymore so i guit perhaps to as a miner (also called carebear) i refuse to get blown up in low with my expensive clone in it
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16249
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 18:07:39 -
[17] - Quote
Tian Toralen wrote:A lot of players that never tried EVE before, see the long skillqueue, see the advantages of two +4 implants and they don't want to lose those implants, so they don't PVP, they stay in high-sec and get bored, then leave the game.
Learning implants are a real barrier for new players trying to enter null-sec. They need skills fast. They also need to pvp. They also need ISK and can't afford to lose 40 million each time they die. What to choose? Why do players have to make this choice: fun or isk ($$$) ?
So - remove learning implants, give us a +4 boost to all attributes. The money CCP will lose because of shorter training times will be a lot less than the money won because players fight, destroy more ships, are not afraid to PVP, have more fun and stay in the game.
Rather than removing my options, why don't we increase your options?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=391378
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
185
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 20:01:56 -
[18] - Quote
Do we really need to have a method to speed up learning? Especially ones that benefit the oldest and richest players? Why not just flatten it out and find new uses for implant slots?
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1962
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 20:27:20 -
[19] - Quote
If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16256
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 20:32:14 -
[20] - Quote
Zappity wrote:If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players.
How do learning drugs intrinsically favour rich players?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
|
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
188
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 20:40:48 -
[21] - Quote
Because they will be high demand items that will have an ISK cost. Someone like me can buy millions of them and keep them stocked in stations everywhere to stay boosted 24/7.
New players probably won't even know they exist and will have to choose between learning faster or buying another Atron.
And unlike current implants, you can't save money just by playing more carefully. A new player who is very alert won't lose their +3s because they won't get podded in hisec/lowsec. In your booster system the new player will always run out, whereas rich players will never run out.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
858
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 20:45:11 -
[22] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players. How do learning drugs intrinsically favour rich players? How do they not? Either they are expensive enough that players need to consider whether they are worth the iSK which favors the wealthy, or they are so cheap that they just become mandatory and everyone uses them without thinking.
The later case adds nothing but busy work to the game, while the former favours the wealthy.
There needs to be some trade off to using them to make the choice meaningful and ISK is not the best choice as it favours established players. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
256
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 20:47:16 -
[23] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players. How do learning drugs intrinsically favour rich players? I originally liked the idea of boosters, but the problem I see is the general message to the players. Pay $$$ subscription and get a running skill queue. Pay or grind and get a faster queue. This is far better than pay or grind more and unlock the fun, but still not good IMO.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12618
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 23:02:27 -
[24] - Quote
You ran into your own law on this one, Malc.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1962
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 08:59:04 -
[25] - Quote
Yeah, what they said. Boosters would presumably be reasonably expensive or they would just be a default (no choice). So people who can afford to pay for a continuous supply are effectively trading ISK for SP.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16258
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:03:48 -
[26] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Because they will be high demand items that will have an ISK cost. Someone like me can buy millions of them and keep them stocked in stations everywhere to stay boosted 24/7.
New players probably won't even know they exist and will have to choose between learning faster or buying another Atron.
And unlike current implants, you can't save money just by playing more carefully. A new player who is very alert won't lose their +3s because they won't get podded in hisec/lowsec. In your booster system the new player will always run out, whereas rich players will never run out.
Implants also have an ISK cost.
In the event that my proposal was accepted, the demand for learning implants would plummet, if for no other reason than each character would only need 1 rather than 5. The simplest way to protect LP store income would be to add learning boosters to LP stores (as suggested in the proposal IIRC) and make them cheap. Say 1-2% of the price of the equivalent implant per dose. That puts a +5 booster at, what? 1200LP and 1.2M ISK.
Then they'd be universally available, impossible to corner and widely advertised to any player doing even L1 missions for income.
Then there's also the issue of granularity. As a rich old player, I can plonk down for a pair of +5s whenever I feel like training extra fast. That +5 goodness is easy for me to achieve, but it's a very high hill for a new player to climb, But that new player can buy a few booster shots and amp up his training speed without making a huge downpayment in advance.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16258
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:07:30 -
[27] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You ran into your own law on this one, Malc.
I disagree.
Boosters make it easier for new players to achieve higher learning speeds. Older players can trivially access that advantage already. They can't be more advantaged than they already are.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16258
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:10:37 -
[28] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Malcanis wrote:Zappity wrote:If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players. How do learning drugs intrinsically favour rich players? I originally liked the idea of boosters, but the problem I see is the general message to the players. Pay $$$ subscription and get a running skill queue. Pay or grind and get a faster queue. This is far better than pay or grind more and unlock the fun, but still not good IMO.
Not having to risk high priced implants if you don't want to reduces the grind and means that you dont have to choose between training skills and having fun. Anything, anything that undermines the horrible terribads who grief new players out of the game (and ruin EVE's reputation amongst potential players) by telling them to grind missions to earn +5s and then "stay in hi-sec until you have enough SP for 0.0" is good for the game and good for the new players.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1963
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 21:34:21 -
[29] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:...The simplest way to protect LP store income would be to add learning boosters to LP stores (as suggested in the proposal IIRC) and make them cheap. Say 1-2% of the price of the equivalent implant per dose. That puts a +5 booster at, what? 1200LP and 1.2M ISK.
Then they'd be universally available, impossible to corner and widely advertised to any player doing even L1 missions for income In that scenario there is no game play choice. You just use the boosters. This would be similar to clone costs which were removed because there was no interesting choice:
"...the current clone death mechanics. They are not a real choice, they are an illusion of choice. A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints."
This is similar because everyone would just use the boosters.
Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-new-era-of-clones/
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16259
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 22:23:18 -
[30] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:...The simplest way to protect LP store income would be to add learning boosters to LP stores (as suggested in the proposal IIRC) and make them cheap. Say 1-2% of the price of the equivalent implant per dose. That puts a +5 booster at, what? 1200LP and 1.2M ISK.
Then they'd be universally available, impossible to corner and widely advertised to any player doing even L1 missions for income In that scenario there is no game play choice. You just use the boosters. This would be similar to clone costs which were removed because there was no interesting choice: "...the current clone death mechanics. They are not a real choice, they are an illusion of choice. A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints." This is similar because everyone would just use the boosters. Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-new-era-of-clones/
There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants
1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days 2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants? 3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio 4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working 5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy? 6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |