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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12646
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:51:49 -
[31] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You ran into your own law on this one, Malc. I disagree. Boosters make it easier for new players to achieve higher learning speeds. Older players can trivially access that advantage already. They can't be more advantaged than they already are.
What you're suggesting is not a meaningful choice. It's just pointless updating, like a Facebook game or the old skill system, or WoW Garrisons. It's not interesting gameplay either, it's just "do this pointless task or suck".
And it's taking away a meaningful choice to try and remove yet more risk of loss from the game.
This game needs more meaningful choice, not less. It needs less repetitive boring tasks, not more.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1963
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Posted - 2015.04.16 23:52:32 -
[32] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants
1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days 2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants? 3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio 4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working 5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy? 6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP I had not considered this in the context of implants staying in the game. Boosters would add choice in that case.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12646
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Posted - 2015.04.17 00:04:40 -
[33] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants
1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days 2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants? 3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio 4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working 5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy? 6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP I had not considered this in the context of implants staying in the game. Boosters would add choice in that case.
Wait, what? Why would you have two of them? Granted, that does add choice, but it's fairly strange.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1963
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Posted - 2015.04.17 00:11:29 -
[34] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity wrote:Malcanis wrote:There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants
1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days 2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants? 3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio 4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working 5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy? 6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP I had not considered this in the context of implants staying in the game. Boosters would add choice in that case. Wait, what? Why would you have two of them? Granted, that does add choice, but it's fairly strange. Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12646
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Posted - 2015.04.17 03:22:45 -
[35] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.
If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1963
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Posted - 2015.04.17 04:24:36 -
[36] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity wrote: Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.
If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks. It is nothing to do with risk. I routinely PvP in implants which are more expensive than a +5 learning set. But every time I choose to use these 'interacting' implants I lose SP because I am not in the +5 set. Encouraging people to sit in 'non-interacting' learning implants is bad because we should be encouraged to be in 'interacting' implants instead.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
869
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Posted - 2015.04.17 06:04:54 -
[37] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity wrote: Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.
If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks. It is nothing to do with risk. I routinely PvP in implants which are more expensive than a +5 learning set. But every time I choose to use these 'interacting' implants I lose SP because I am not in the +5 set. Encouraging people to sit in 'non-interacting' learning implants is bad because we should be encouraged to be in 'interacting' implants instead. But there is no choice. If you are a PvP player, there is no other option than to fly with your expensive pirate implants and use learning boosters. The only reason you wouldn't do that is if you could not find/afford the learning booster.
That isn't interesting gameplay. The current trade-off - character progression vs. combat advantage - isn't a necessarily a good one which is why we are discussing it, but at least it is a trade-off. Just adding boosters just gives you everything with no real decision to be made on your part. Might as well remove learning bonuses at that point.
If they were a new type of booster (or effectively an insured implant) that took up the corresponding implant slot then you might argue you have more choices. You could use regular implants, or this booster which might cost more, be temporary but persist through death. Still, since those are clearly do everything better than the current implants, just more costly in the long run, so they would give an advantage to those that can afford them. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16260
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Posted - 2015.04.17 09:23:40 -
[38] - Quote
The decision is analogous to manufacturing with a bpo or a bpc. Both have plausible use cases.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16260
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Posted - 2015.04.17 09:25:07 -
[39] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Zappity wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Zappity wrote: Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.
If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks. It is nothing to do with risk. I routinely PvP in implants which are more expensive than a +5 learning set. But every time I choose to use these 'interacting' implants I lose SP because I am not in the +5 set. Encouraging people to sit in 'non-interacting' learning implants is bad because we should be encouraged to be in 'interacting' implants instead. But there is no choice. If you are a PvP player, there is no other option than to fly with your expensive pirate implants and use learning boosters. The only reason you wouldn't do that is if you could not find/afford the learning booster. That isn't interesting gameplay. The current trade-off - character progression vs. combat advantage - isn't a necessarily a good one which is why we are discussing it, but at least it is a trade-off. Just adding boosters just gives you everything with no real decision to be made on your part. Might as well remove learning bonuses at that point. If they were a new type of booster (or effectively an insured implant) that took up the corresponding implant slot then you might argue you have more choices. You could use regular implants, or this booster which might cost more, be temporary but persist through death. Still, since those are clearly do everything better than the current implants, just more costly in the long run, so they would give an advantage to those that can afford them.
I have outlined several use cases above where the implant remains a better choice
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
873
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Posted - 2015.04.17 09:55:07 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I have outlined several use cases above where the implant remains a better choice Pretty much all of your use cases are just balancing your perceived risk of losing your clone vs. the cost of replacing them. It's much like insurance, another mechanic many people think is problematic, where if you don't think you will lose a clone you get the implant, and if you estimate your chance of losing a clone is above extra cost of the booster, you go booster. I guess it is additional gameplay, but practically for most players there is no choice - your trader/industrialist will always go implant, and the active PvPer will always go booster.
It might reduce the hesitation of those with learning implants to PvP, but still, the PvPer has the problem that boosters are mandatory. There is no reason for them not to use them and thus you have to buy and use the most expensive one you can afford. Once you identify yourself as likely to lose the clone, or benefit too much from the pirate implant set to go without, you have no trade-off to make except for how much ISK you are willing to spend (which favours established players). |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12847
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Posted - 2015.04.17 11:41:53 -
[41] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: It might reduce the hesitation of those with learning implants to PvP
I dispute this claim, by the way. Risk aversion should not be handled by making choices less meaningful.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jonahs Chensua
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2015.04.30 09:24:20 -
[42] - Quote
Leave the implants the way they are... leave the boosters the way they are... and let choice and the consequences of that choice ride on the shoulders of the player.
Some players will gain advantages and benefits, others will not. Some payers can make smart decisions, some players cannot. Some players can see and use a tool to their best advantage, others cannot.
No everyone does not to be "equal", because they never will be. |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
207
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Posted - 2015.04.30 12:48:17 -
[43] - Quote
Jonahs Chensua wrote:Leave the implants the way they are... leave the boosters the way they are... and let choice and the consequences of that choice ride on the shoulders of the player.
Some players will gain advantages and benefits, others will not. Some payers can make smart decisions, some players cannot. Some players can see and use a tool to their best advantage, others cannot.
No, everyone does not need to be "equal", because they never will be whether in a game, or in reality.
The "choice" however is a meaningless choice. These attributes have arbitrary, unintuitive assignments that don't have meaningful impacts on spaceships.
We could add a pop-up daily trivia quiz that gives you +1,000 SP. It could be really hard to reward players who know EVE lore. It would be a choice players would have to perform it or not, but it would be an arbitrary and pointless choice.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16277
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Posted - 2015.04.30 15:21:51 -
[44] - Quote
Attribute s definitely should be put in a bag and drowned
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Jonahs Chensua
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2015.05.01 09:27:04 -
[45] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Jonahs Chensua wrote:Leave the implants the way they are... leave the boosters the way they are... and let choice and the consequences of that choice ride on the shoulders of the player.
Some players will gain advantages and benefits, others will not. Some payers can make smart decisions, some players cannot. Some players can see and use a tool to their best advantage, others cannot.
No, everyone does not need to be "equal", because they never will be whether in a game, or in reality. The "choice" however is a meaningless choice. These attributes have arbitrary, unintuitive assignments that don't have meaningful impacts on spaceships. We could add a pop-up daily trivia quiz that gives you +1,000 SP. It could be really hard to reward players who know EVE lore. It would be a choice players would have to perform it or not, but it would be an arbitrary and pointless choice.
I don't think you get it, but that is OK because it supports my comments regarding the equality issue. No choice is meaningless and does carries some form of consequence, whether big or small, whether near term or long.
You may argue it is trivial and too small, and your motive is to eliminate "meaningless choices". Then by your own word, it is a totally irrelevant issue, and implants and boosters can remain in effect because they have "no meaningful impact".
If you need to somehow create another in game mechanism to address your core problem then do so. But do not strip me of my so-called "meaningless" choices to fulfill that agenda.
You may simply decide to make the meaningless choice...NOT to use boosters or implants. |
Karl Timonen
4
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Posted - 2015.05.01 12:28:45 -
[46] - Quote
+1 to remove learning implants for all the reasons already cited above
Perhaps they could be replaced with legal boosters designed to be real cheap and easily produced even by beginners... in fact I'd overhaul the entire drug industry and make it more interesting & viable for new players. Just a thought.
...
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Drammie Askold
Phoibe Enterprises
3
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Posted - 2015.05.24 11:54:16 -
[47] - Quote
I am hesitant about seeking out pvp due to not wanting the expense of replacing learning implants. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2123
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Posted - 2015.05.24 12:28:52 -
[48] - Quote
Drammie Askold wrote:I am hesitant about seeking out pvp due to not wanting the expense of replacing learning implants. This is not a good excuse. Please read The Lecture and come fight in lowsec. You will not lose your pod if you are careful.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Iain Cariaba
1422
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Posted - 2015.05.24 19:32:05 -
[49] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Drammie Askold wrote:I am hesitant about seeking out pvp due to not wanting the expense of replacing learning implants. This is not a good excuse. Please read The Lecture and come fight in lowsec. You will not lose your pod if you are careful. This is true. The only time I ever lost pods while fighting in lowsec was when I didn't want to fly 15+ jumps back home, and asked for pod express.
Oh, and when I made the mistake of flying into Rancer and landed on the gate occupied by smartbombing Rokhs, but that was my fault for not paying attention to the half a dozen flashy criminal icons in local.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2129
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Posted - 2015.05.24 20:40:43 -
[50] - Quote
I may have lost my snakes after frantically spamming the 'warp to' button on the beacon 10km away. But I guess lowsec can't be held responsible for that one :)
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3974
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Posted - 2015.05.25 13:02:50 -
[51] - Quote
I used to be against this, but I have changed my mind. Actually, I'd even be happy with removing attributes altogether.
The basic 'meaningful choice' of skill training is - unsurprisingly! - choosing what to train.
Both learning implants and remaps add uninteresting complexity, imho. Almost everybody has +3s/+4s anyway (whether through cheap learning implants or genos/pirate sets), except (I assume) active null/wh PVPers, but why should these guys be penalized? Also, +1s, +2s and +5s are pretty much useless compared to the much more common 3/4s.
The basic 'meaningful choice' of pirate sets and hardwires is - again, unsurprisingly! - choosing whether to plug - and risk - them or not, and how much ISK to spend/risk.
The 'skill training penalty' of not plugging in learning implants is incredibly uninteresting, agian imho, because it has very little to do with the competitive nature of EVE.
Player A investing/risking more ISK than player B in exchange for a bonus NOW, IN THIS FIGHT is good. Player A investing/risking more than player B in exchange for a bonus or a new ship NEXT YEAR when they probably won't even meet is hilariously useless.
If it wasn't necessary to keep people hooked for years, I would maybe even just unlock all level Vs for everyone! It's not fleet command V that makes a good FC, nor max skilled carrier skills that makes you good at triage (or allows you to afford losing several archons while you practice), nor max trade/industry skills that makes you an ISK trillionare.
TL;DR just joking on that last sentence, skill training does make sense to craft your character(s) / provide choices / keep players hooked / reward loyal players... but no need to overdo the complexity! We should all be playing in space, not on EVEmon.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Peter Abbot
Super Grover 2.0
2
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Posted - 2015.06.23 16:42:18 -
[52] - Quote
I know this thread is getting long, and old, but there is one point I haven't seen made regarding implants:
Jump clones.
If you're risk-averse you can always jump into an unmodified clone and run around doing PVP without risking your expensive implants. Then, after a day or two spent engaging in "risky" behavior you can dock up and jump back into your clone with all the learning implants. For example: I used to be busy enough that I would play EVE mostly on weekends and just check in on skill training during the week. Back then I would use a clone with tons of learning implants when I was (mostly) offline and then jump to a less "expensive" clone for weekend play.
I say leave the learning and other implants where they are. It adds another layer of strategy to the game and there are ways to mitigate the risk. Armor reppers mitigate the risk of getting asploded in an armor-tanked ship. Jump clones mitigate the risk of losing expensive learning (and other) implants. You can also maintain jump clones with different mixes of implants so that you can change them up without destroying and re-installing implants. Say, one with combat-related implants, one loaded with mining and/or industrial implants and one loaded with all the learning implants you can afford. Etc.
I'm not saying this is right for everyone but it's the way I play and, IMHO, it makes the game more interesting. Removing learning implants from the game would remove a welcome element of strategy and complexity. Isn't complexity one of the things EVE is (in)famous for?
If anything, I would say give more of a boost per level for the Infomorph Synchronizing skill but raise its training time multiplier. This would make jump clones more attractive at higher skill levels because you'd be able to "jump" more often. As it stands, the maximum boost you can get is 5 hours. Hooray! I only have to wait 19 hours instead of 24! If this skill were better balanced it would make training jump clones worth more and make them far more useful at maximum skill levels.
Fly safe.
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere"
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kitsune Sabre
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.07.08 09:20:28 -
[53] - Quote
I agree they should be removed but at the same time we need a replacement
they're only reason why I will not go into low security space or wormhole space I simply cannot afford to replace them they're the most expensive thing I own |
Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
419
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Posted - 2015.07.20 20:46:16 -
[54] - Quote
Do with what you will with attributes, plants and whatever you like. Really does not mean fck all any way.
However, if this is an attempt to mitigate risk aversion, you are flat wrong. There is not a damn thing you can do to get the numb nut behind the key board from cringing and rubbing his/her/it's hands.
If this is a veiled attempt to close the skill gap between newbies and older players, you are an idiot and have no clue what is EvE is about. |
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