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Jago X
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:47:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Jago X on 26/10/2006 12:49:29
Originally by: Quilan Ziller ...stuff ..
Ziller are you really saying that we should balance a T2 fitted gun BC to a Drone BC with T1 drones because ... they're expensive?? really that is quite wrong.
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:58:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Jago X Edited by: Jago X on 26/10/2006 12:49:29
Originally by: Quilan Ziller ...stuff ..
Ziller are you really saying that we should balance a T2 fitted gun BC to a Drone BC with T1 drones because ... they're expensive?? really that is quite wrong.
First of all, as it is now, even with maxed out T2 drones this ship sucks. See the calculation above. And I was not suggesting the balance you are proposing (which IS wrong). Ships of the same class with maxed out racial skills should be basically equal. I was only trying to point out to one of the earlier posters that the way the ship would actually be flown it would hardly qualify a pwnmobile, that's all.
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:04:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Jago X Edited by: Jago X on 26/10/2006 12:49:29
Originally by: Quilan Ziller ...stuff ..
Ziller are you really saying that we should balance a T2 fitted gun BC to a Drone BC with T1 drones because ... they're expensive?? really that is quite wrong.
Oh, one thing that is NOT wrong is that ship/fitting costs should also be relatively balanced. See, if I go in battle with my super expensive Ogre IIs, even if I win, I lose significant amount of ISK. A gun or a missile user only expends some cheap/relatively cheap ammo, and loses his weapons only if he loses the entire ship. I see that as really unbalanced. Drones do have some unique advantages, but I am not going to use them unless the risk of losing them is justified by tactical benefits. And the ship in question does not provide these benefits. To put it bluntly, a guy in a cheap T1 Ferox may or may not outdamage me, but he can drive me into bankruptcy by shooting my Ogres II with 5 ISK Gremlin rockets.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:06:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares ill just add my 2 cents.... myrmidon (change name to myrmiddon plz? )
No.
Myrmidon -----------------------------------------------
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Thunderbird Anthares
The New Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:08:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares ill just add my 2 cents.... myrmidon (change name to myrmiddon plz? )
No.
Myrmidon
awwww i just keep typing it with double D for some reason,dont ask me why ------------------------------------------------ When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself. |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:11:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares ill just add my 2 cents.... myrmidon (change name to myrmiddon plz? )
No.
Myrmidon
awwww i just keep typing it with double D for some reason,dont ask me why
Homer would be turning in his grave -----------------------------------------------
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Thunderbird Anthares
The New Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:29:00 -
[67]
who cares,i just want it to be a decent ship ------------------------------------------------ When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself. |
Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:00:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Ithildin
To put it straight: backup drones are absolutely necessary. That you must agree to.
Now, to restate the question. Given that estimating what the typical damage output from the guns are likely to be, do you think that the ambiguous level of 475dps (plus 5 unbonused guns) to be unreasonable considering that there is no way, what so ever, to increase this damage?
I really wish I had NB's excel sheet to fall back on here, and also compare the damage and tanking for the other battlecruisers. Before Ive ran the numbers, its difficult to compare. But I can say this... the gallente drone boat should be balanced to the rest. If it needs boosting, then of course it should be.
Jim, what do you think of the specific suggestion I and a few others have made:
Allow a larger drone bay (150 or 200 m3) but restrict the drone bonus to light and medium drones.
Surely that would answer the worries of both sides in that it can fit a full rack of tech 2 mediums and replace them if needed - but at the same time cannot fit a full set of heavies and use them at full effectiveness.
Zarch AlDain
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:47:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 14:55:30
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Ithildin
To put it straight: backup drones are absolutely necessary. That you must agree to.
Now, to restate the question. Given that estimating what the typical damage output from the guns are likely to be, do you think that the ambiguous level of 475dps (plus 5 unbonused guns) to be unreasonable considering that there is no way, what so ever, to increase this damage?
I really wish I had NB's excel sheet to fall back on here, and also compare the damage and tanking for the other battlecruisers. Before Ive ran the numbers, its difficult to compare. But I can say this... the gallente drone boat should be balanced to the rest. If it needs boosting, then of course it should be.
Jim, what do you think of the specific suggestion I and a few others have made:
Allow a larger drone bay (150 or 200 m3) but restrict the drone bonus to light and medium drones.
Surely that would answer the worries of both sides in that it can fit a full rack of tech 2 mediums and replace them if needed - but at the same time cannot fit a full set of heavies and use them at full effectiveness.
I think I want to wait for the graphs before I discuss it. :) I did put the Drake, Hurricane and Myrmidon into the NB spreadsheet, replacing Ferox, Cyclone and Brutix though (and changed the ship bonuses accordingly). I dont know if I get the correct numbers, but Myrmidon has far more dps than the rest...
Myrmidon with 5x Heavy Electron Blaster II and Ogre II's get 600 dps with Void, 540 dps with Null. Without the drones, it gets 230 with Void, 170 with Null, which of course is bad. Its all in the drones for this baby. So the 4 drones add 370 dps it seems.
Hurricane with 7x 220 Autocannon II gets 500 dps with Hail, 400 dps with Barrage. Drake only has 300 dps, but thats with 7x Heavy Missile Launcher II. No Assaults.
And all of these numbers are with the old ammo. Looking forward to running tests with the correct, current t2 ammo changes later.
All numbers are without ANY damage mods. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:51:00 -
[70]
Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 14:51:47 Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 14:51:20 Numbers for the drake must be wrong, it tops out @ 400dps with heavy IIs, you must be missing the RoF bonus. Sounds about right, 25% rof adds the 33% dps youre missing.
Which btw means ~600 with assaults, since they do about 50% more dps :)
Brutix and Harbinger should do even more, my 2 ion/5 electron fit does like 500ish just from guns with 2 magstabs and AM, and my skills arent maxed. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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Nyobe
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:54:00 -
[71]
The Myrdom is a very nice ship.
I dont know what should be wrong with it but PROBABLY ppl fly it wrong.
Fit something like: 3 med nos 5 light ions blaster
mwd, scramble, web, cap booster, tracking disruptor (or other EW) 2x MAR, 3x active hardener (or explo, eanm, dc OR 2x EANM + DC)
10x Tech2 medium drones.
If you stay close, your TD might be very useless but you can easyly manage your drones while dealing nice dmg, sucking your enemy, and tanking. I had no problem with 2 abaddons and a minmatar BC. The both had nice fittings and fought well.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:55:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 14:56:29
Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 14:51:47 Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 14:51:20 Numbers for the drake must be wrong, it tops out @ 400dps with heavy IIs, you must be missing the RoF bonus. Sounds about right, 25% rof adds the 33% dps youre missing.
Which btw means ~600 with assaults, since they do about 50% more dps :)
Brutix and Harbinger should do even more, my 2 ion/5 electron fit does like 500ish just from guns with 2 magstabs and AM, and my skills arent maxed.
I forgot to say that all these numbers are without ANY damage mods. :) And I ran the Drake again. Its 300 dps with the rof bonus. Adding 3 damage mods puts it at almost 450 dps. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Nyobe
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:01:00 -
[73]
and where's your tank? Tiny mid slot tank?
You will have a hard time with dmg mods when you amor tank
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:02:00 -
[74]
Which would give it 675dps in assault mode
How much DPS does a Myrmidon with Ogre IIs and damage mods get again? 4 and 5 drones plz, mr slave ^^ ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:10:00 -
[75]
Originally by: keepiru Which would give it 675dps in assault mode
How much DPS does a Myrmidon with Ogre IIs and damage mods get again? 4 and 5 drones plz, mr slave ^^
With full gank, 3 damage mods and tech 2 electrons... 750 dps with void, 650 dps with null. You dont get that much effect from it since you dont have a damage bonus to the guns to start with for this ship. Thats with 4 drones. With 5 (which you cant fit), you get 842 dps with void, 741 with null. So every heavy drone adds about 90 dps.
And its purely theoretical anyway. You cant fit a tank with 3 damage mods... :) And they lowered the damage of all t2 ammo, so these figures are already wrong. But still. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:40:00 -
[76]
Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 15:40:37 Ok, what about with 5 heavys but no dmg mod?
Assume that the bonus to drone dmg is replaced with a +dronebay like the Eos. Say 100 base, 25m3 per level, no dmg bonus. And 6 turrets. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:49:00 -
[77]
Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 15:40:37 Ok, what about with 5 heavys but no dmg mod?
Assume that the bonus to drone dmg is replaced with a +dronebay like the Eos. Say 100 base, 25m3 per level, no dmg bonus. And 6 turrets.
317 drone damage (at best). /me cringes.
At least the Eos has adequate turret hardpoints and bonuses. - What am I listening to? |
Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:59:00 -
[78]
Originally by: murder one I just got booted from the test server, but before I did I had a chance to use the Myr in a number of configs against every type of other BC. Boy was I impressed!!!
Impressed with the Drake, impressed with the Hurricane, impressed with the Harbinger... but the Myrmidon f#cking sucks.
Setups I tested and what happened with each:
All nos highs (4 med, 4 small), "standard mids" (ab/web/scram/med injector, turret disruptor or cap recharger, another scram, w/e in 5th mid), 2x med t2 rep, 2x t2 eanm, internal force field DC. 4x Ogres in the drone bay.
What happened: all my drones were popped within the first minute of the fight, even with me trying to pull them in before they popped. Every opponent simply webbed a drone, killed it and moved to the next one. It's almost as if they *KNEW* I didn't have any in reserve! Oh wait, the Myrmidon only has 100m3 drone bay. Of course they knew. End result: dead Myrmidon. Vs every type of other BC. Every BC can simply do more DPS than a dual rep Myrmidon tank w/ BC4 can handle. I even had half my cap charges left over when I popped. It was that bad.
5x T2 Med electron setup. 3x small nos, std. mids (mwd this time) dual rep tank, 4x ogres the first few times, and 10x hammerhead2s the second bunch of tests.
What happened: died every time. First the Ogres were killed right away, then I didn't have enough DPS to break anyone's tank. This was repeated vs every type of ship, except for the Drake, who's tank was so f#cking huge that the pilot didn't even care about my drones. Then I tried it with 5x mediums. The DPS was so **** poor w/ 5 mediums and no damage bonus to the guns that they didn't bother killing my drones. I still died.
5x Ions, 3x small nos, std mids w/ mwd, 1 medium rep, 2x eanm t2, dc, mag stab 2, 4x ogres.
What happened: Still got raped. They just killed my Ogres. Then I still didn't have enough DPS with 5 Ion IIs (medium) to break their tanks before I was dead. Still had cap charges left when I popped. The tank simply isn't there. It's like it needs a rep bonus or something. OH RIGHT, it already has one. Silly me.
Ions, no nos, ab and standard mids, small rep, 1600 tungsten plate, 2x eanm t2 and best named DC w/ 4x Ogres and then 10x hammerhead t2.
What happened: This thing goes 170m/sec WITH THE AFTERBURNER ON. Lol? Even when I webbed people, they just webbed me back and scooted out of range of my blasters. They killed my drones. I died eventually. Rep bonus on the small rep was funny to watch as I slowly died with the plate. 170m/sec w/ AB? what a joke.
1600 plate setup as above but with t2 rails (medium).
What happened: they orbited me at 12-13km with their ABs on and I didn't have enough tracking (no tracking bonus to hybrids you see) to hit them. They killed my drones. I died.
Drone rigs arn't going to fix what is wrong with the Myr. Even with THREE +10% drone hitpoint rigs installed it won't help. Combat is just too long. Ships have too much HP built in as a buffer while they take out your drones, even without fitting plates. It's so easy to focus on drones now that their HP relative to your own ship's HP are diminished.
The Myrmidon doesn't do enough DPS, even with hybrid damage rigs installed (there arn't any drone damage rigs for regular drones, only for sentry drones, which are worthless for pvp) the Myrmidon doesn't do enough DPS to kill something before it's drones are popped.
The best way to balance the Myrmidon at this point is to do this: skill up Caldari Cruiser and buy a f#cking Drake. Who woulda thought that Caldari would come out on top? I don't think that's ever happened before.
prolly not smart either to go up against multiple opponents in a myrmidon
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Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:14:00 -
[79]
Drone space is a joke. Give me some drones that pry the guns off other ships and then maybe 100m3 would be fine.
With 100m3, everyone who knows how to fight a Myrmidon will simply go after the drones.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:16:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 15:40:37 Ok, what about with 5 heavys but no dmg mod?
Assume that the bonus to drone dmg is replaced with a +dronebay like the Eos. Say 100 base, 25m3 per level, no dmg bonus. And 6 turrets.
317 drone damage (at best). /me cringes.
At least the Eos has adequate turret hardpoints and bonuses.
Yuck. Well it has to get a bigger dronebay either way or its a crippled ship =/ ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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Sydian Rie
Minmatar Digital assassins
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:25:00 -
[81]
Perhaps should just stick with ol Bruty hehe
5 x Heavy Neutron II 2 x small dims
1 x yt8 1 x 20k scram 1 x fleeting web 1 x med cap inject 800's
2 x medium rep II 1 x energized adaptive II 1 x reactor control II 1 x mag stab II
5 x vespa ec-600
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Spaced Skunk
Yesodic Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:46:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Heelay Ashrum
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Use medium drones and you will be able to have 5 in the air, and 5 as replacements. The alternative, having 5 heavy drones AND replacements, should appear overpowered to anyone. At least it does to me. But I think you gallente players have become used to being overpowered to be honest... sorry if it sounds like a flamebait, its NOT intended to be. Its just that gallente have become too strong compared to the rest for some time now, so when you get a ship that cant use battleship sized drones in masses, you think there is something wrong.
5 medium drones? so this ship should have dps of a vexor? u consider this ballanced?
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Centurin
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:24:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 17:25:05 I was so looking forward to this ship. It's a shame that it's gimped. It's just a vexor with more HP. Hell, even the vexor gets a hybrid bonus. Plus, this is supposed to be a Tier2 ship and the Brutix outdamages and outtanks it. Such a nice looking ship... ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:27:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tannach Anyone tried 4x sentry drones from a long range, fit the ship like a true drone boat (optimal range rigs, drone links etc) and snipe using the thing?
Yep. It's junk. What good are sentry drones for PVP? They can't outrange gate guns, don't have any tracking or signature resolution for small targets like frigs and shuttles and have crap damage output relative to medium T2 rails. Everyone needs to stop talking about sentry drones.
Because I said so...
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TorpSpammer ExtraordinR
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:31:00 -
[85]
tried a brutix vs the new BCs ?
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:34:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Deathbarrage
Originally by: murder one Stuff I said...
prolly not smart either to go up against multiple opponents in a myrmidon
Don't be obtuse. <and for the uneducated people with no vocabulary, that means "don't be a f#cking idiot".>
I was fighting 1v1. Not 4v1. Get a clue.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:37:00 -
[87]
Originally by: TorpSpammer ExtraordinR tried a brutix vs the new BCs ?
I did. It's awesome vs the Myrmidon! I just killed it's drones and then raped it's "big tank" with my blasters, even just using standard antimatter (t2 amo/void wasn't on the market at the time).
Against the other Tier2 BCs it gets raped. Drake, Hurricane and Harbinger just crush it.
Because I said so...
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:45:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: keepiru Which would give it 675dps in assault mode
How much DPS does a Myrmidon with Ogre IIs and damage mods get again? 4 and 5 drones plz, mr slave ^^
With full gank, 3 damage mods and tech 2 electrons... 750 dps with void, 650 dps with null. You dont get that much effect from it since you dont have a damage bonus to the guns to start with for this ship. Thats with 4 drones. With 5 (which you cant fit), you get 842 dps with void, 741 with null. So every heavy drone adds about 90 dps.
And its purely theoretical anyway. You cant fit a tank with 3 damage mods... :) And they lowered the damage of all t2 ammo, so these figures are already wrong. But still. :)
Just a note about T2 ammo: Medium blasters already have an "effective" range of about 1500m. With the new Void it's going to be even worse, plus less tracking and even less range/falloff. People will be using Antimatter MUCH more often simply because of the excrutiatingly short range of Void, and since Null is getting a huge tracking nerf and damgage nerf it probably won't be used at all.
And I think that people are forgetting there that this isn't a "big vexor". If it was it would get a 5% damage bonus to hybrid turrets per level as well as the drone damage bonus. Then you MIGHT be able to consider running medium drones and using your guns as the primary damage dealers instead of the other way around.
Think about this: Vexor with 4x Electron IIs + it's 5 Medium drones w/ maxed skills so it has a +25% damage mod built in to the guns: that's FIVE GUNS, not counting other damage mods. HELLO, THIS IS THE SAME DPS AS A MYRMIDON WITH 5 MEDIUM DRONES.
So basically if you fly the Myr using medium drones, you have the DPS of a CRUISER. This might be fine if it's tank were so huge that no other BC could break it, but it doesn't work that way. The Myrmidons tank gets broken every time, and you just end up dead.
Because I said so...
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:47:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Forger MED DRONES ANYONE?
We already have Vexor for that. I like my Vexor. But Myrmidon is supposed to outclass the Vexor. Right now it does not.
hmm...
+10% to light/med drone damage +5% to med hybrid damage
+100m3 drone bay +1 more turret
how about that?
alternatively:
+1 light/med drone per level +5% med hybrid damage
+100m3 drone bay +1 more turret -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:48:00 -
[90]
Brutix needs more grid, but mainly more cargo space so you can have a medium can and enough space for a full ammo reload and an 800 charge.
Being able to fit full ions with mwd, jector and dual reps the way the Hurricane fits full 220s would be nice, because the range is a serious is a much bigger larger problem than on a thorax.
But that's quite beside the point of this thread :) ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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