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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.27 04:20:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 06:37:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Illuminaty Edited by: Illuminaty on 27/10/2006 06:15:55
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
This just caught my attention:
8/7.5 = 1.0667
Is 6.7% enough diffrence to even justify making a new ship?
The Hyperion/Malestorm/Abbadon just seem so 'wtf, why would I pay more for a ship that really does the same damn thing as another ship that I already have'.
Edit:(I mean for ffs, combine lag with the need to activate more turrets and your probably doing less damage)
If you want the absolutely best alphastrike then yes, it's worth it. It is, as many has noted, not cost-effective, but if you want the absolutely best alphastrike (at a reasonable price) you won't really worry about that. Lots of BoB pilots will fly it simply because it has the ROF bonus and 8 turrets. If the shield tanking bonus stays we'll use it for ew/tc/sb just like we do with the tempest.
The real question about the Maelstorm is the tank bonus. It's more suited for a small/med gatecamp/fight and ac-setups than fleetfights which it's been touted as. Given that I'm in favour of changing it and the best suggestion I've seen so far was 10% shield hp per lvl.
Such a bonus would give less resists than the Rohk, but you can with the current stats of the ship make a reasonable fleet setup with decent resists and a recharge rate that equals a large sbII. Equal to the Rohk in shieldtanking, but sufficently different enough to not encroach on Caldari's field. It also allows for more flexibility than the current bonus as you can choose to just give it some better resists and then go for damage increasing mods, go for an uber passive tank, something in between, and even in some situations go with an armor tank and utilize those medslots for ew/other useful medslot mods.
A resistance bonus would give it about the same versitality but along different paths.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:14:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Nifel on 27/10/2006 08:13:50
Originally by: Illuminaty FFS, just fit an faction gyrostab instead of a gyrostab II then.
6.7% is a diffrence that is only going to be noticable in a theoretical discussion about something or an e-peen measuring contest. It isn't sufficent grounds to base an entire battleship around.
I'd be happy if they took the Hyperion, Maelstorm, and Abaddon back to the drawing board and came back with something that _adds_ to the ship lineup like the Rokh adds to the caldari lineup.
Yeah... ppl should start fitting faction gyrostabs. Will drive up the price even more, not to mention demand in such a situation would far outstrip supply. Great plan!
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:23:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:55:13
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29 About the Maelstrom (very brief)
The problems as a artillery platform
* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.
Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.
I meant the apoc with projectiles here. Of course tachs dont have the alpha of projectiles.
So Tempest doesnt have more alphastrike than the projectile apoc. Like you say here, it has 7.5 effective turrets of alpha strike. Apoc has 8.
Maelstrom will have higher alpha than the Tempest, yes. By 0.5 turrets.
Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?
Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 08:39:13
Originally by: Nifel
Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?
Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.
It needs a damage bonus because there is no reason to use it over any other 8 turret battleship otherwise. If the other battleships get bonuses to give them a specific role, why doesnt the Maelstrom? You know that ROF and shield boost are probably the worst bonuses possible for a fleet ship.
Sure, if you increase its survivability by shield hp and resists, then at least it gets some bonuses that fits its role. Thats all I ask.
But to be honest, I think the ship is meant to be small gang support at medium range. Thats why all these discussions about a role in a fleet is probably just making the devs shake their heads. Its not the ships purpose, judging from its current bonuses.
However, I dont see why you would use the Maelstrom instead of the Tempest for small gangs. The shield boost is only useful when taking fire from a small number of ships. Otherwise, it just wont have time to get useful.
Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.
And as for what the devs have said about the maelstorm, tux said he wanted it to be a shieldtanking artillery platform. And yes... for small/medium gangs the bonus fits, somewhat. Problem is that if you're gonna go in close/medium range with an artillery setup you're better off with tracking computers than an active shield tank. So then you end up with a long range setup if you want to hit + tank effectively and all of the sudden you're left with fleet distances.
Better then to change the shield boost bonus to something that allows for both scenarios and allows for more flexibility. With a hp/res bonus you're still extremely useful in the active tanking department in small/medium gangs, but it also broadens the applications of the ship to include fleet fights.
What is there not to like?
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Nifel Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.
That is exactly why people are arguing for a damage bonus. They don't fly projo apocs now because the alpha-advantage of 8 turrets with no damage bonus is negligible, but the additional cost associated with it is not. It will be the same with the Mael. Even worse maybe. Only people having too much money and/or not caring about money will fly a ship in a fleet that (probably) costs 50% more in ship price and 33% more in guns, for a whooping 6.66% more damage... This might not apply to you seeing how you are in BoB, but not everyone is rich or in a rich big alliance owning T2 BPOs.
The difference in relative cost regarding guns is 2x 1400mm II. If you can't afford that you shouldn't be flying BS anyway. Ship price doesn't matter once insurance comes into play. And the reason people don't fly artillery-apocs is because after the first volley the ship is subpar to everything.
And I'm more inclined to believe that the people that argue for a damage bonus, do it because it'd be the ******* pwn in fleetbattles. Which is exactly why I don't think it'll ever happen. Basically... asking for a damage bonus for the Maelstorm is asking for a ship that bypasses the hp buffs.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.28 07:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10 The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.
What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)
*edit*
Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.28 08:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Nifel Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10 The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.
What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)
*edit*
Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.
1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.
Numbers to support this? (Let's say I won't be able to reply on Sunday.... might still be around when you reply to this. Thought you were more EU TZ).
I did some myself and there's about a 10 hp/s difference at the most (for useful setups at least). Nothing earth-shattering, I just don't see how it'd be overpowered.
For example: XL Shield Booster II + natural shield recharge rate with nothing added to it gives you roughly 158.4 hp/s. XL Shield Booster II + the 7.5 Shield boost bonus gives you 165 hp/s. Given that both of them uses the same amount of energy and the hp boost gives less hp/s I don't see why it shouldn't stay at 1500.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.28 10:05:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 10:06:51
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.
I think you need to back this up with numbers instead of jedi powers. Im not very good at math, but if someone here is, I would like a comparison of the effective tanking of the Rohks resistance bonus compared to the extra shield hp suggested for the Maelstrom.
Easy example:
10000 shield.
actual shields: hp: 15000 res: 10000
effective shields for em damage: hp: 15000 res: 13333
time to fully repair shields with 1x XL Shield Booster II including passive shield recharge at maximum (it never is at fully maximum all the time but I don't have the time to do more intricate math here): hp: 104 sec (1500 recharge rate) res: 75.75 sec (2000 recharge rate)
Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.10.30 04:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/10/2006 10:50:42
Originally by: Nifel
Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.
Good post. Makes me want that resistance bonus for the Maelstrom tbh, because its actually also much more versatile than the shield hp bonus imo. CCP keep saying versatile for minmatar, but doesnt really back it up with bonuses. A shield resist bonus is versatile, a shield boost or hp bonus is not, because it locks the ships tanking into one option only to take advantage of it.
Its very bad to be competing with caldari for bonuses...
The HP bonus will always give more hp/s on passive recharge (if Maelstorm stats stay the way they are now that is) than the res bonus. Playing with the real stats the Maelstorm will have a maximum shield recharge of 38.4 hp/s with max skills, no modules and no gang. On the Rohk that'd be 20.4 hp/s which translates into 27.2 effective hp/s regen for em damage with the res bonus in play.
They're two different bonuses, but I'd dare say they'd be equally good with the current stats on the BS we have, unless I've missed something -_^;;. Ofc... something's bound to go ape**** anyway :\.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
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Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 05:26:00 -
[11]
To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:
You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.06 13:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Drake or Ferox with 3 extenders, 2 invul, 4 relays: 20016.25 in 460.8, 108.59 peak recharge @ 55.00% EM, 82.00% EX, 73.00% KN, 64.00% TH, signature 360 ------------- Rokh with 4 extenders, 2 invul, 2 shield relays, 1 cap relay, 1 tracking mod, 1 signal amp: 28500 in 960, 74.22 peak recharge @ 55.00% EM, 82.00% EX, 73.00% KN, 64.00% TH, signature 600 ------------- Raven with 4 extenders, 2 invul, 4 relays, 1 signal amp: 27000 in 614.4, 109.86 peak recharge @ 40.00% EM, 76.00% EX, 64.00% KN, 52.00% TH, signature 560
You're forgetting the reistance bonus on the Rokh.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.06 13:36:00 -
[13]
Looks so to me. 2 inv fields on all ships and the same resitances on all of them. Did I miss something?O_o
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.06 13:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Nifel Looks so to me. 2 inv fields on all ships and the same resitances on all of them. Did I miss something?O_o
Yup. Drake, Rokh, and Ferox have the same resist (55% EM) while Raven has lower (40% EM). Drake, Rokh, and Ferox has the resistance bonus, Raven does not.
Right... I'll go shoot myself in the head o_O. The resists are wrong anyway btw :s. Should be 61.77% em on rohk/ferox/drake and 48.27% on raven.
/me wanders off muttering about the virtues of food
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 04:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Razor Jaxx Well, well, back in EvE after a bit of an extended hiatus to get a sneak peek at Kali features & ships, I finally got to fly a Maelstrom around for a test drive, and honestly (and I'm a strong supporter of Minnie ship improvement) I don't know why people are dissing that ship.
The native shield boosting bonus, combined with proper mods, implants and what not, and with the global HP boost, turn the Maelstrom into a formidable AC platform. Granted, it's a bit slow and could use an extra medslot for a scram/disrupt (unless you remove the AB/MWD), but its tanking ability is simply amazing, and will please all BS skirmish pilots out there.
Yes, you'll need a cap injector - just as every other close range BS out there - which shorten its battle presence, and yes, you'll need decent implants/boosters and/or faction mods to turn it into the real beast it can be, but nonetheless, the Maelstrom is a monster which I, for one, am looking forward to fly, even in its present state.
It's not a pants bonus for an AC-boat, although it misses a 7th medslot to be truly great in that department. The problem is that Tux wanted (still wants?) it to be a shield-tanking artillery boat. And for that an active bonus like the shield boost bonus isn't all that great. A passive bonus like HP or reistances are much better for a shield tanking artillery boat as it can both be actively tanked or just passively tanked.
The much-vaunted minmatar flexibility is better supported with a HP/resistance bonus as well. Plus I'd rather like a shield-tanked artillery-beast of a ship compared to an AC-boat :p.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.18 03:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
The only problem is that Abaddon is not a better tanker than a geddon. The geddon can fit 7 Tachs, have 5 Heavy drones, and with skills, has 7 low slots left after it fits on EANM II to give it the same tanking as an Abaddon with more cap due to the 10% per level cap use bonus on the energy turrets.
The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.18 04:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nifel The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.
And the abaddon needs to fit about 4-5 cap recharge modules to sustain fire.
Easy on the trigger-finger. All I did was point out that you have in fact 6 lowslots left after fitting 7x tach2's on the geddon. This "discussion" brings absolutely nothing to the table. It's degenerated into finger pointing and head-bashing.
"ZOMG YOU CAN FIT AN EANMII ON THE GEDDON AND HAVE TEH SAME RESIST BONUS AS THE ABADDON!!!1"
Yeah? And what about the rest of the fittings. What about the entire scale? Skirmish to fleet battles? At what point does it break down? What could be done about it. This means leaving out complete reshapes of the ship. Aint gonna happen in the small time it's left before Kali is deployed (yay... go CCP... not).
Still think the Abaddon should have enough pg to put on 8x tach2 without fitting mods, 10% hp & 5% res and enough cap to fire the tachs for 3-4 minutes straight. Would make a valuable fleet ship, good buffer tank and possibly a good pulse/tank boat depending on just how much cap it'd be given.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Nifel
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.11.18 10:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aramendel And, of cource, there is then still the question if amarr really need *another* fleet ship or what exactly the apoc is then for.
*shrug*
Some amarr (*cough* the whiners *cough*) has been complaining about the apoc for some time now. Change that instead? Once the 3rd 'special something' has been figured out for amarr that is. The only thing the apoc has going for it now that's unique to it is the ability to fire 8x tach2 (good alpha strike and good dps) for a very long time. Not breathtaking, but not half as bad as most people make it out to be either.
What I can see though is that this rush of getting something different, something new... *anything* has blinded many people. Chances are they'll shoot themselves in the foot trying to get that.
"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
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