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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 -
[1]
the nighthawk needs a 7th launcher, that should have been painfully apparent right from the start though. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:47:00 -
[2]
Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 10:48:04 Oh and please fix the model/texture on the Harbinger so that the last turret isn't lopsided on the bottom, move it to the centre of the ship - or give it its 8th turret back =P
Originally by: madaluap It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC.
And the Brutix. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:11:00 -
[3]
Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 12:14:23 Even with 5 heavy drones and the current bonuses the Myrm wont come even close to Domi DPS - just like the Ishtar doesent. It ill be about 3-400 DPS short, which is LOADS.
It will, in fact, still do less damage than a brutix...
Originally by: Mikal Drey Im not keen on it
You are insane, your name is on the list and some nice men will come by your house tonight to take care of you.
Its a zomgawesome AC boat, ACs > Arty, dont you dare touch it to make it another lame shield-tanked artypantsthing.
More speed = good though ^_^
Dont touch the bonuses on pain of sodastreamed bree. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:26:00 -
[4]
You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:38:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: keepiru You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes?
In theory. In practice it does not.
The theoretical levels are only reachable if you fit it with neutron blasters and damage mods, which leaves no powergrid for even an MWD.
However, it also needs to be said that the Dominix has only one less hardpoint than the Megathron and similar damage bonuses.
As we all know theory > practice. The Dominix does not outdamage the Megathron.
Yes. Thats exactly my point.
WHat that means is: there's no real reason *not* to give the myrmidon 6 hardpoints and 250m3 drone bay, since even if you did cripple yourself with 6 neutrons and 3 damage mods, leaving you with not enough grid for your obligatory tech II sodastream, you will still be outdamaged by the brutix. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 13:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough.
5 medium drones and 5 guns with no dmg bonus are BEYOND PATHETIC for a BC. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 19:01:00 -
[7]
You must be doing something wrong then, it tops out at about 400-450 with heavies. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hllaxiu Screw armor tanking, that'd be the best shield tanking ship in the game.
EDIT: Ok thats hyperbole, but seriously I'd shield tank that thing.
So would I. I'd shield tank the current one if there were any point to putting damage mods in lows ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.27 07:37:00 -
[9]
Same sig radius as Brutix - all the tier-2s have the same sig radius as the tier-1s. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.28 07:40:00 -
[10]
Edited by: keepiru on 28/10/2006 07:40:07 Stupid alt >_< ^^^^^ was me ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:31:00 -
[11]
No. 3 mids = suck. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:05:00 -
[12]
No, 3 mids are ok on a BS that does around 1000hp damage before the 50% hp boost.
On a BC, in a world with the 50% hp boost, its suck.
If you cant have speed mod + injector + web + scrambler you are far more gimped compared to other BCs than with 7 guns and 4 mids, because if you gave the stuff to hold your enemy and dictate range you will ALWAYS cap out before you kill any other BC. Heck, a prophecy will pwn you.
Simply not viable in Kali. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.28 11:50:00 -
[13]
Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise.
Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit.
Heavy Beam IIs fit better than Tach IIs on amarr battleships, so as far as I'm concerned, the PG/CPU right now is fine, but it needs either:
8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it
And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:13:00 -
[14]
No, I dont think it would be.
Just depends on which direction the devs want to take it, 7 lows means it does comparable DPS to hurricane but with a slightly better tank, 8 guns means more damage but same tank that doesn't last as long.
Considering that DPS comparisons don't count the T2 heavy assault launcher on the Hurricane, I dont think that 14% better DPS from just the guns would be out of line considering you'll still have bigger cap draw and be nos-less by necessity in order to do that damage.
Incidentally, the Brutix needs enough grid to fit full Ions with mwd jector and dual reps or it'll be smashed into oblivion. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:23:00 -
[15]
Awww, Den needs a hug ^_^ ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 16:14:00 -
[16]
The Ferox was never intended to be a missile ship. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 19:23:00 -
[17]
Edited by: keepiru on 28/10/2006 19:24:57
Originally by: Shodana So, that's why it's a 5T/5L split. Give someone the option of something that always hits and they'll run with it -either that or be drone mongers :)
If the Drake goes through the with the 7L/3T split, why not give the Ferox 8 highlots in a 7 turret, 3 launcher split, keep the mids and lows as is? Although as you stated, "... they prefer EvE on easy mode... " and will just swap over to the drake.
No. Keep the total slots, give 2 more turret hardpoints and remove 2 launchers, add some grid and remove a little CPU.
Originally by: Goumindong Its good enough for you, until you realize that now you are going to be out tanked by a hurricane and out gunned, as well as out speeded, and outsized.
As it stands right now, the ship is hundreds of CPU and PG below the Hurricane due to fitting issues with lasers, as well, its lacking in the damage department compared to the hurricane, especialy since the hurricane has the ability to fit gun rigs and the harbinger does not[not on its biggest guns, the Hurricane can fit 3 run rigs depending on calibration on 425's and still beat the Harbinger in terms of overall CPU and PG use at max skills compared to heavy pulses.
At t1 rigs, that is between a an extra 33% DPS boost[at no extra ammo consumption] or a 37.5% DPS boost[with a large extra ammo consumption].
If the Harbinger fits Focused Medium Pulses, the Hurricane can fit Dual 180mm Auto cannons fit, 3 damage mods and be using the same amount of PG. In this situation the Harbinger is actualy up 125 PG after fitting...[.914]. Then again, the Hurricane is doing between 73% and 85% more damage[depending on how rigs and ship bonuses stack with each other] with her guns than the Harbinger.
So go ahead and fit 7 focused medium pulses, a guy in a hurricane will still out damage you and probably out tank you. Heck, with just dual 180mm's he beats you on powergrid by 30 per gun and outdamages you by 40% over focused medium pulses, with the ship bonus and no rigs.[10% with no ship bonus]
Some interesting arguments, but I havn't seen your math so I'll have to run it myself and see what I come up with. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 23:40:00 -
[18]
Are you factoring in the fact that the rig skill decreases the penalty to 50% @ lvl5? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.29 07:03:00 -
[19]
Well, ome interesting numbers to be sure, they're only right assuming tux does increase EMP damage so it does as much as Multifrequency and Antimatter tho.
I think the problem here is one tux touched upon once, and that is, fitting difference between Autocannons and Howitzers is too large, and it makes balancing minnie ships very hard.
Regardless, I'm going to hold my council about this particular issue until SISI is stable enough for extended testing. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.29 14:34:00 -
[20]
No, it wont be a mean NOSPwnMobile because its powergrid sucks far too hard for any decent amount of nossage with a tank under it.
NOS + Drones is only that good when you have ECM in the mix as well, and that wont be happening anymore. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.30 16:10:00 -
[21]
No, 3 fitted + 2 hardpoints on fitting screen = 5.
If you fit 5, it'll say the ship has 0 hardpoints, because it shows the amount of turret/missiles hardpoints still free. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26 Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until.
EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M You don't calculate damage@range and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this
Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s.
Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.30 21:48:00 -
[23]
Well, T2 ammo wont be so common anymore after the nuuurfs, so Autocannons will have to fight against 24hp MF M with EMP M (22hp) or Phased Plasma M (20hp).
So damage figures which don't take this into account fail @ reality.
Also, thanks to the ludicrous rof of Auto's, reload time puts a considerable dent in your dps in any real 1-on-1, especially with the 50% HP boost. So much so that 425mm ACs had to have their clip size boosted because they actually did less dps than 220s in a fight thanks to clip size.
Not that anyone is going to fit 425s anyway.
Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.31 03:32:00 -
[24]
No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs.
Just give it 250m3 and get it over with. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.31 07:30:00 -
[25]
Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 07:31:25 Allright, I got bored of looking @ other people's graphs, so I made my own - btw, NaughtyBoy and Chribba are made of pure 24-karat win.
Anyway, I wanted to look at DPS @ Range and Cumulative Damage/Time @ fixed range - both with the ships as they are right now, and with the only realistically possible boosts for the 2 ships that are perceived as "weak", which is to say: 8th turret for Harbinger and 250m3 drone bay for Myrmidon.
Before we start, a few notes about the highslot/drone setups of the ships here:
The Hurricane uses a T2 Heavy Assault in the 8th high. This is actually very unlikely to happen, as even with the dps of HAML IIs most people will probably fit a nos, purely because the ammo draw of 7 ACs creates noticeable logistical problems already, without the silly m3/minute ammo chew rate of HAML IIs - however, its technically possible... easyer than fitting a nos in fact. On the other hand, drone damage is not modelled 100% accurately as its using 5 lights instead of 4 lights and 1 med. The Drake doesn't have any weapon in its 8th high as its not, as far as I know, realistically possible to fit anything in there along with 7 HAML IIs and the mods needed to get into HAM range and stay there. Not if you want to fit 2 BCU IIs anyway. If this is wrong, and you find a gun that's worth the bother of the ammo you have to take with you, please let me know.
Now, on with the graphs!
Current Situation: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m
Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m
I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.31 09:12:00 -
[26]
That solves nothing.
With 5 heavy drones the Myrmidon is only just level with the other tier-2 BCs as far as damage goes.
With mediums? Its a waste of database entries, they might as well not put it live on TQ. It would be the Ares of Battlecruisers ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.31 15:16:00 -
[27]
Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 15:17:51
Originally by: Kai Lae
Originally by: keepiru
Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it.
You don't think that 7/4/7 would be better, as it would be more "amarr like" and would provide more fitting flexibility?
Either works, but if you swap the utility for a low - I fragging hate utility slots, turn it into something actually useful either way - it needs a good cap boost.
Either way:
Harbinger w. HP II: 419MW left Harbinger w. FMP II: 1043.4MW left
Hurricane w. 425mm II: 779.8MW left Hurricane w. 220mm II: 1057MW left
Perphaps its time to bring HP II grid requirements down to be mroe in line with FMP II, as was done for Heavy Neutrons last time around? From a DPS POV, FMP IIs are mid-tier guns...
Originally by: Kai Lae
Originally by: keepiru No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs.
Just give it 250m3 and get it over with.
Might be a bit too much, 175m3 would give it the same drone space as a typhoon and a bit of flexibility. In any case the issue of preventing the DPS from the guns from adding up too much damage to this ship still has to be dealt with, it would seem that the PG on the ship would have to be decreased I would think. Also, 8 high slots is about 2 too many, but another lowslot would come in handy.
But the EOS has 300m3, and the Ishtar has 275m3... no, I don't think 175m3 is nearly enough.
This is a ship that has to compete with HACs and other BCs, not just swat cruisers around. You risk ending with the same situation as the NH, a ship that fails at playing on the same level as its peers.
Originally by: Alek Row ONLY when comparing Pulses and ACs, there is Artillery and Beams too, and this 2 weapon systems have exactly the same cap requirements. And? That's not new when comparing Amarr and Minmatar ships. Harbinger still have a lower sig than the Drake. And the Harbinger is the second fastest bc. Drake and Myrmidon are slower than the Harbinger. For some reason the Harbinger have a better drone bay. Use the different damage types. Cap problems. Yep you do. You don't have reloads too (only thing I can say for that one, it's a lame thing to say, I know, but cap problems are not a new thing for Amarr).
No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo.
Artillery and beams you say? Indeed, the Harbinger fits HB IIs easyer than the Hurricane fits 720mmm IIs.
However, take this into consideration.
7x 720mm IIs, cap draw: 0. 7x Heavy Beams IIs, cap draw: 20cap/sec.
I'll let you imagine how long your cap will last when firing beams. Hint: You'll cap out way before you kill your target, unless you're popping frigs. BTW, reload time is factored into the damage/time graphs already.
The bottom line is, right now the Harbinger and Hurricane are pretty similar, but the Harbinger is essentially worse in every respect, if not by much.
I'm proposing to give it the ability to outdamage the Hurricane, but with unchanged fittings and cap. I'm sure you can see that hardly makes for a pwnmobile with the lenght of fights in Kali.
The other option is to swap the utility for a low and give it a cap boost, so while being larger, slower and with worse tracking and worse overall cap, it will have the ability to tank more. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.10.31 15:53:00 -
[28]
I'd expect the Harbinger outdamages the Hurricane w. long-range weapons, yes (up to a certain range when the 720s actually pull ahead).
The brutix would come close if it had the grid to 250mm IIs (and outrange the harbinger by a chunk too), but tux still hasn't given in to my pestering about letting gallente sub-battleships fit proper sized guns without a bendover, like the thron does.
However, artillery is very much under discussion right now - a 50% hp boost is a direct nerf to alpha-strike and a dps boost of some sort is not unlikely. I will wait and see what happens in that respect... either way, the Hurricane is the ship I will be flying for PVP. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.31 17:18:00 -
[29]
50m3 IIRC. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:24:00 -
[30]
220mm have the same range as 425... well, possibly a few hundred m less optimal but you still have 8km falloff so *shrug*
When you do that the Hurricane (which is faster and more agile, and dictates range) can easily get into the range sweetspot where it is both doing more damage, and way below your optimal using your weaker tracking against you.
And of course, since it has more cap play with, gets hit less and has the same number of lowslots and you both lack a tank bonus, it tanks better. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.01 02:15:00 -
[31]
Edited by: keepiru on 01/11/2006 02:20:58 I'm sorry, but thats not true. Take a look, and keep in mind this doesn't even include the effect of tracking: 220mm II vs. FPM II
And before you ask, no, it doesn't change much at all with secondary weapons, see here ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.01 03:10:00 -
[32]
Yeah but:
Harb w. Nos, Hurricane w/out nos: Advantage Hurricane, still has more cap for tank, does more damage.
Harb and Hurricane both w. Nos: Advantage Hurricane, does very similar damage with way more cap for tank. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:51:00 -
[33]
And anything less than 250m3 will make the Myrm a decent drone boat how? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.01 04:41:00 -
[34]
Well, I still say at the very least that 7th high needs to move to the lows =P
And they better fix the model so the 7th gun doesn't make it look lopsided anymore =P ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.01 05:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Packtu'sa Argh, some of you really frustrate me. :p
The feeling is mutual, I assure you.
Originally by: Packtu'sa Not all of the new ships are supposed to be tactically identical. The Drake and Myrmidon are more tanking ships than ships designed to dish out firepower, and the Harbinger and Hurricane are more for laying out the damage. A damage ship should not have seven lowslots for tanking, so why are people complaining that it doesn't?
Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot.
Originally by: Packtu'sa Admittedly it seems that the Hurricane has a stronger tank than it should, but remember that the Harbinger stands out above the other battlecruisers in that it has more capacitor--the others are all equally below the Harbinger.
Wow, a whole 250 more cap, yup, that will definitely cover the guns that draw as much or more cap/sec than a MAR II....
Originally by: Packtu'sa Certainly, the capacitor drain of lasers is significant, and so perhaps the Hurricane's capacitor should be reduced to 2000; but don't go adding and removing slots.
Why not? Why should all ships be identical in slot setup? We're not talking about adding or removing, we're talking about moving a slot, so that the Harbinger goes from being a cheap copy of the Hurricane to being an Amarr ship worth flying for anyone but RP'ers - rememeber with BC5 you just need to spec for the guns to switch race, so why would anyone fly the Harbinger over the Hurricane, apart from when ratting (no ammo).
The Hurricane's cap is fine, its the Harbinger that needs more.
Originally by: Packtu'sa As a general rule, missile ships do far less damage than turret ships, but they have the freedom of manueverability (not constrained by transversal, etc) and a tank that is extremely strong for an extremely short amount of time. The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs).
Uh, perhaps you need to actually get on the test server and see what a Drake can tank before you make such sweeping statements about tank bonuses... not that its any different from now, even on TQ resists bonus are miles better than repped/boosted bonuses in every situation.
Originally by: Packtu'sa Now, last words about the Myrmidon.. why do people insist that it be able to field four wings of heavy drones with a damage and hitpoints bonus? EVE is about making choices-- that's why we have skills that encourage specialization, that's why we have CPU/Powergrid constraints, that's why the races involve different tactics, that's why a battleship cannot (any longer) one-shot a frigate orbiting it at 500 meters. There is no "WIN" button in EVE, so stop trying to make one. With the Myrmidon, you can either field four heavy drones (with a damage and hitpoints bonus), two wings of five medium drones each, or four wings of light drones, or a combination somewhere between them. Has anybody considered logistics/electronic warfare drones?; it's designed to survive, so it wouldn't perform too poorly in a support role. Sure, give it the sixth turret slot so the graphics look all spiffy, and then leave it alone.
Because 4 heavy drones will just you killed, and medium drones from a 35m isk ship with a 300m sig thats slower than a typhoon is 1) a waste of money (hello, vexor anyone?) and 2) will just get you killed.
In a nutshell, the Myrmidon with anything less than 5 heavy drones with bonus and replacements is a waste of space, isk, trainign time, and database entries. If it cant compete toe-to-toe with the ishtar, then its pointless as a battlecruiser. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.01 23:04:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Areconus "Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot."
Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time.
Sounds to me like YOU are being sarcastic.
No matter what you do, the Hurricane is a better tank.
They both have the same lowslots, both lack a tank bonus, and the Hurricane will *always* have more cap available, as well as getting hit less thanks to smaller sig and being faster...
And if you want to super-plate, the Hurricane is better again, since Amarr dont have a dual180mm equivalent.
And the Hurricane outdamages the Harbinger... so uh, can I have some of what you're smoking? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.02 11:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nyxus The real question is simple:
Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships?
Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too.
Well. its technically a better long-range ship from 0 to 15km. After 15km the Hurricane soundly outdamages it.
Soooo... not really much of a reason. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 13:40:00 -
[38]
Edited by: keepiru on 02/11/2006 13:43:36 Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal.
And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period.
With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless.
Take a look:
Short-Range Long-Range
Notes: that Ferox in the graph has 7 turrets, the Brutix can't really fit 250mm IIs, and its also missing a plate in an Ion II setup, when Harbi and Hurri have to drop plate only to fit neutron-equiv. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.02 14:48:00 -
[39]
I'm not going to consider T2 ammo as 1) it should not be a necessity to fit T2 ammo to compete and 2) the whole of T2 ammo balance/stats is up in the air right now. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:55:00 -
[40]
Needs more testing, but I don't think there's anything particularly "overpowered" about the drake.
Sure, it can mount a really, really strong tank and still do very good damage, but when it does that it'll have at most a scrambler.
Not really that hard a target to wear down.
If it actually tries to dictate range, then its tank gets progressively weaker... ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 00:41:00 -
[41]
Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 00:47:28 Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 00:41:25
Originally by: Sniser
Originally by: keepiru
Now, on with the graphs!
Current Situation: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m
Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m
I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^
those screens are incorrect hurricane isnt using their drones. but harbringer is using them. If you add drones to hurricane they have a lot more high dps
They're all using drones, spreadsheet just runs out of space.
Originally by: Ath Amon my advice is to train for hybrids... they outperform both lasers and proj...
hybrids need just 1 bonus to get a veeery good effectiveness while lasers need cap usage and rof and proj need dmg and rof
Both Gallente BCs are total suck compare to the Harbi, Hurri and Drake.
The Brutix with its tank bonus could compete with them even though it has 1 less low to tank with, but only if it could fit compartable setups with Ion IIs that the Harbi does with FMP II and the Hurricane with 220mm IIs - which is to say, Guns, MWD, Injector, MAR II, 1600 tungsten.
Right now its short a 1600 Tungsten, which means it has half the HP = goes pop every single time. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 02:56:00 -
[42]
Ok, so... can we agree that the Harbinger is subtly worse than the hurricane in nearly every respect, at once?
And especially in the 2 things which the boring, "guns & armor" amarr are supposed to be good at, which is, surprise, guns (hurricane does more damage) and armor-tanking (hurricane has the same slots and more cap for it)?
And start discussing how we go about making the Harbinger better in at least 1 department, without nerfing the Hurricane which is, quite frankly, exactly what a damage-oriented tier-2 BC should be like? Thnx ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:43:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ithildin I must say that I've always found those graphs misleading when drones are involved. Essentially, the heavier the drone the less useful it is at range.
I agree, and that's why I tend to remove drones from long-range weapon dps graphs.
However, when comparing the myrmidon to other BCs fitted for short range, its a necessity, for obvious reasons. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 11:04:00 -
[44]
Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 11:04:58
Originally by: Ath Amon with lasers you have a range bonus
Meaningless because the Hurricane dctates range. The Harbinger is a *very good* BC, the proble is that its outclassed by the Hurricane in everything, and that's what we're discussing.
Originally by: Ath Amon around 20-30% more base dps
Meaningless because the Harbinger only out-damages the Hurricane when the Harbi is using top-tier weapons and the Hurricane uses middle-tier.
Originally by: Ath Amon 4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary
Try more like 10 cap/second with FMP II, much worse with any other gun - I think we can all agree quad light beams are a non-issue here
And the Hurricane has like 50% more cargo bay.
Base armor is pointless if you don't have the cap to run your guns & reppers, with the fight lenghts in kali. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 12:21:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sniser then why i having too different numbers?
True Dmg
hurri out dps everyone ;)
Looks I forgot them then
Originally by: Ath Amon is not meaningless, you will not fight only hurricanes, hurricane is just one of the many ships and not one of the best for the harbringer, hurricane can't dictate range too against most cruisers and in that situation a lower weapon range can be a problem.
you say that the hurricane outperform the harbringer for everything, in my opinion is not the case
Yes, they wont only fighjt hurricanes, that's all fine and dandy BUT. Tell me *one* reason to fly the Harbinger over the Hurricane. You say you disagree, so show me why.
There isn't one.
I'm not asking to make the Harbinger UBER. I just want it to be better at one thing that's actually valuable in the real world - more damage outside web ange with short-range guns it meaningless.
Keep in mind, I'm horizontally specced, I can fly all BCs basically equally well... I would like one reason to actually use my laser spec, because right now there wont be, apart from NPCing
Originally by: Ath Amon is not meaningless as is the way weapons where developed and balanced... different weapons with different bonuses and different stats...
if you think that lasers are underpowered then it's another discussion and a "primary" problem, while the comparsion between these ships is less relevant
Its meanignless because we're not talking about the weapons, we're talking about the ship.
Originally by: Ath Amon as said cap is particular area of a ship, you can say that amarr are weak on cap, but when you say that amarr are weak on tankage because of cap is like to say that amarr are weak on ecm, offence and so on because of cap.
it can seem a marginal distinction but is an important one as it focus an area where you have a problem. this makes easier to analyze the problem itself and to better compare balance and eventual solutions whitout unbalance other areas.
I dont agree with you. An armor tank is 1/3 resist, 1/3 hp and 1/3 THE FRAGGIN CAP TO RUN IT *has heart attack*
*comes back from dead*
>.>
<.<
So yeah. xtra Armor on Harbinger = fragging useless, thanks to oh gee amarr are supposed to havbe better cap but they dont. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:42:00 -
[46]
Hmm. T2 missiles work for me, at least in DPS @ range graphs.
Just not in Cumulative Damage / Time graphs. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:04:00 -
[47]
Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:30:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Goumindong Any changes to the Harbinger?
Not that I can see. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 20:01:00 -
[49]
So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 22:28:00 -
[50]
Still feels a little unfinished tbh, but its a step in the right direction, the "8 highs on everything" thing was getting a little dull. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:59:00 -
[51]
Yup. Bonus is just not in description yet. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 00:42:00 -
[52]
Well, its more grid than the Brutix has, and the Brutix is a gunship with a DMG bonus and 7 turrets ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 01:45:00 -
[53]
They're going to have to drop a few guns if they give it 5 heavies - this is the situation now: Graphage ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 01:49:00 -
[54]
Doubt it.
Drone ships often have less slots, to account for all the damage from fitting-less weapons. *points @ dominix* ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 02:50:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Katabrok First I think that its a good sign that the brutix need some more pg, dont you think?
Yes ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 11:07:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Ithildin That the Myrmidon needed a sixth turret is quite obvious a step in the wrong direction, however.
As a vocal proponent of the 6th turret mount, I have to say this is now painfully apparent - its becoming less and less of a drone ship.
4 turrets +275m3, nerf the grid so you can only fit electrons like the ishtar?
Originally by: Ithildin In either case, what stands out in that graphage are the yellow and blue lines. They highlight two things very well: * Myrmidon relegated to medium drones DO NOT WORK AND CAN NOT COMPETE.
That was never in any doubt, I don't think.
Originally by: Ithildin * Brutix wtf, mate?
Its worse than it looks, it needs 3 grid rigs to fit electrons and a 1600mm...
Originally by: Ithildin Oh, and the missing dull-grey line: the Ferox is rather laughable.
Well, if you give it 7 turrets it actually does decent damage @ like 45km+ - would work pretty nice for certain gang support situations I guess. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 15:59:00 -
[57]
Edited by: keepiru on 04/11/2006 16:00:56
Originally by: Ithildin * Ferox, +2 turret hardpoints, +300MW
Maybe - a few tf, and remove 2 launcher hardpoints.
Originally by: Ithildin * Brutix, +250MW, +25TF
Sounds about right.
Originally by: Ithildin * Myrmidon, -1 turret hardpoint, +200mŠ drone bay
I'd go so far as to say -2. And possibly shave a little grid off as well - don't want to see this thing fitting 6x Med Nos II, regardless of the low range they have.
Originally by: Ithildin Something to debate is how well the Prophecy function, as well. I get the feeling the Prophecy might need another hardpoint in light of recent additions.
I dunno. It still tanks really hard with that bonus and a 1600 plate.
Makes a durable and cheap gang mod platform that's still more than able to defend itself in a gang.
Holds up under fire much better than a harbinger, and because its tier-1 people are less likely to shoot at it, and will probably focus on the flashy and bangy tier-2s zooming around on MWD.
Maybe a little more cap to allay the fact it only has 3 mids, but the Harbinger is the solo ship, so possibly that's not needed. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 16:17:00 -
[58]
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you: The MyrmAbomination.
The most effective Myrmidon NPC setup I've come up with
6x Heavy Beam II 2x Large F-S9 Shield Extenders, 2x Hardeners, 1x Web 4x Power Diagnostic System II, 1x DC, 1x HS II
Change this ship now please... ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 16:41:00 -
[59]
If you fit projectiles on a Harbinger a ferox will outdamage you ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 20:15:00 -
[60]
Originally by: JoCool Edited by: JoCool on 04/11/2006 19:04:20 The Mael is an excellent ship and the Rokh is simply an outclassing turret sniper to be honest. It should not be that way.
1) why not? 2) wrong thread? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.04 23:50:00 -
[61]
Edited by: keepiru on 04/11/2006 23:50:18 Interesting.
Well, if that's the case, its good in the sense that the guns now draw 25% less cap, but bad in the sense that the ship lost 8% of its dps, which now puts it well under the Hurricane... if the Hurricane still has the listed bonuses, that is. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 01:12:00 -
[62]
Its confirmed btw.
And how? because a 25% reduction in RoF gives a 33.3*% increase in DPS.
10*1.25=12.5 10/0.75=13.3* ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 01:34:00 -
[63]
Originally by: keepiru Graphs to come about that...
Or not, since I can't seem to upload.
Suffice to say, there is only 1 case where the Harbinger outdamages the Hurricane, and that is when the Harb is mounting Top-tier guns (HP II) and the Hurricane is mounting bottom-tier (Dual 180mm II).
When that happens the Harbi has a lot of trouble mounting just the guns, mwd, injector and rep. The Hurricane mounts guns, mwd, rep, injector, 1600 plate and nos =/ ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 02:31:00 -
[64]
Well, to be quite honest with you I prefer the damage bonus, the cap draw was an issue, now its not quite as much of an issue.
Now it really needs a nice cap boost though, so it can at least tank better than the hurricane. And possibly that utility slot moved to a low. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 03:55:00 -
[65]
Read again, twice, the part where I said bottom tier guns (Dual 180mm II). ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 04:24:00 -
[66]
Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 04:26:25 Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 04:25:39 Sorry
Btw, with AWU 5 you should have grid for upgrade to Med Nos II, or (better choice) some proj rigs.
Oh and where do I find a quickfit with the Kali ships? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 12:28:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ithildin It's got more terra flops than the Brutix, and railguns require less terra flops than blasters. With what I proposed, the Ferox would still have 50 (iirc, base) CPU more than the Brutix to support a shield tank over a armour tank. If the Brutix is "fine" for CPU, the Ferox should be, too.
Good point. The grid saved from not running launchers should balance out in the end.
Originally by: Ithildin Good point. I'm still hoping nosferatus will be reduced well enough, though. The problem with the Myrmidon is that it hasn't got enough bonuses left to support the hybrid turret damage bonus it'd need to promote hybrid turrets - nor are there any sufficiently good drone modules to merit losing the dps from projectiles or cap-heavy lasers (I'd go as far as say the current drone modules are a joke).
Yup. That's the problem with balancing drone ships really, T2 drones are like T2 weapons with 2-3 T2 damage mods applied.
Originally by: Ithildin I think that once the new-toy-noia has settled, people will stop thinking about BCs as two tiers and see them as the same size rectangle.
You might be right. Guess we'll have to wait and see how it pans out on TQ, as usual.
Originally by: Ithildin What you say is the truth, though, and highlights just how ****-poor a repair amount bonus is in practice compared to a resistance bonus.
They're OK-ish on TQ now, but with the 50% HP boost they really go down the drain. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 12:58:00 -
[68]
wrong thread m8... ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 13:59:00 -
[69]
That's it. 6-slot shield tank setups are utterly worthless in pvp with a 15km weapon, but *shrug* apparently everyone will be flying them.
/me wonders how anyone is going to kill anyone else with no speed mod, scram, web... ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 14:38:00 -
[70]
Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 14:47:32
Originally by: Ath Amon maybe it will be a problem maybe if it will turn to be a very effective and very cheap anti BS ship
Nah, it deals less damage than the others by a fair chunk and has the sig radius of a megathron when in full passive-tank mode.
It could be fairly effective with Rage HAMs, but Rages have 12km range, so I don't see how a 6-slot-tank drake is going to get in range with them and no speed mod.
Originally by: Nyxus Javelin Hams. I think 100km total distance as on test. Even if they reduce it by 50% it will still have 50km total range.
And tackling isnt as much of an issue as long as you have a few inties and/or a couple of dictors.
Javelin HAMs are stupidly overpowered against cruisers, no doubt there.
1) They do too much damage, should be nerfed to 85 base to bring them inline with Jav torps. 2) They have far too much range. They need to be nerfed so they only have 25% more range than normal HAMs, again just like Jav Torps to Torps.
They're near useless against frigs though, so once those 2 are fixed, they're all good. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.05 17:33:00 -
[71]
That's because HM Drakes don't really concern me.
1-on1, if they want to hold me I can kill them, if they tank to the point where I can't, they can't hold me and I run.
Good fire support in gangs, to be sure, but no more no less than a Hurricane w. 720s or a Harbinger w. Heavy Beams, if setup right. Tactically different because of divergences in weapon/tank use/position - less damage closer up more further away, can tank more with damage mods but cant help scramble and has poor lock times if it does, not very mobile so slows gangs down a little - but not particularly better or worse. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.05 19:20:00 -
[72]
Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 19:21:53
Originally by: Brazero Well, you can't have heavy beams on a Harbinger. And that's the only negative thing I have found with the ship. A little more grid and all is fine.
1500*1.25=1875 275*0.9*7=1732.5 Remains: 142.5MW
Compare it to the Hurricane, 275MW per 720mm II as well but 125MW less from the ship, they get left with a whole 17.5MW...
The Hurricane will actually outdamage the Harbinger at all ranges you'd expect to use these guns at, so its not really that much of an advtantage (you'll need an RCU to fit other stuff anyway)...
But I can't exactly say that beam fitting is that much of an issue, compared to fitting a full rack of the biggest weapon on other armor-tanked cruiser/BCs.
Originally by: stainage Also the nighthawk might get a rof bonus.
The NH is already getting a bonus in Kali, check the stickys in Ships & Modules. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.07 09:59:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 19:21:53
Originally by: Brazero Well, you can't have heavy beams on a Harbinger. And that's the only negative thing I have found with the ship. A little more grid and all is fine.
1500*1.25=1875 275*0.9*7=1732.5 Remains: 142.5MW
Compare it to the Hurricane, 275MW per 720mm II as well but 125MW less from the ship, they get left with a whole 17.5MW...
The Hurricane will actually outdamage the Harbinger at all ranges you'd expect to use these guns at, so its not really that much of an advtantage (you'll need an RCU to fit other stuff anyway)...
But I can't exactly say that beam fitting is that much of an issue, compared to fitting a full rack of the biggest weapon on other armor-tanked cruiser/BCs.
noooo again...
220 vs focused it will outdamage the harbringer under 5km... not at all range and the difference in pg with maxed skills is 1pg
it could use a bit more pg (just a bit and not enought to fit heavies) and maybe get a bit more dronebay... but is not true that the hurricane outdamage it at any range
Do you even read posts before commenting on them?
Read the part where it says beams again a few times... ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:30:00 -
[74]
But the Ferox is a gunship, so the argument is moot anyway. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 21:38:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark Gallente don't need a tier 2 BC when they have the brutix anyway...
Try fitting a brutix so it that it can even remotely compete with any of the new BCs apart from the Crapdon.
Then come back and say that.
Hint: you might wanna wait until PG rigs work, cause you'll need 3 to get the same fitting with lowest-tier guns that the other ones get with mid-tiers + gun dmg rigs. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.14 10:24:00 -
[76]
Why do you need any math?
Vexor: 5 T2 Medium Drones w. 10% dmg bonus, 5 effective guns (4*1.25) Myrmidon: 5 T2 Medium Drones w. 10% dmg bonus, 6 guns
The difference? 1 bonus-less turret for 35-40m isk difference, wheeee! ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.15 01:02:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Tuxford Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus.
Like you did for the Ishtar and never told anyone? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 09:48:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: HankMurphy [Now, onto the Caldari drake. You said...
Originally by: Tuxford Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is.
..skewed image? Hmm... so then we are going to assume that that particular setup is rediculous and NOT how ppl are actually gonna kit it out? lol, just lol....
No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling.
They're all pretty good, though the Harbinger is arguably the weaker than the Hurricane/Drake, APART FROM THE MYRMIDON =P ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 10:47:00 -
[79]
Edited by: keepiru on 15/11/2006 10:47:12
Originally by: Alex Harumichi I don't quite understand this fear of 5 heavy drones.
I don't get it either, every BC since time they were introduced has equaled or out-damaged their role-equivalent HAC, and there is a direct correlation between the margin by which they out-damage them and whether the ship is worth using for PVP on TQ.
BCs that do less damage than HACs suck. BCs that equal or barely out-damage HACs suck. BCs that out-damage HACs by a fair chunk are worth using.
Its really pretty simple... ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.15 14:25:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Akiman Tier II bc's will be new overpriced ships while hacs and commands reduce...Mirror...
How can they become overpriced? They are Tech I ships and the BPO is openly available in unlimited quantities to anyone who wants to build them... ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:57:00 -
[81]
Drake: 25m3 Hurricane: 30m3 Harbinger: 50m3 ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:18:00 -
[82]
Um, no?
I think you'll find most if not all user-created short-range damage comparison graphs use a full flight of drones.
What's your point, exactly? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:36:00 -
[83]
It doesn't anyway; not now, and not with 5 heavyes and 4 turrets. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:00:00 -
[84]
Racial Armor resists.
Base Armor resists are 60/10/25/35.
Matari get 10% to EM, 70/10/25/35 Amarr get 10% to EXP, 60/20/25/35 Gallente get 10% to KIN, 60/10/35/35 Caldari get 10% to THERM, 60/10/25/45 ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 19:49:00 -
[85]
Edited by: keepiru on 15/11/2006 19:49:25 That's because the NH has since its inception needed 7 launchers and a RoF bonus.
They've done 1/2 of it, now they need the other 1/2. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:31:00 -
[86]
Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 17:33:37
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Very needed changes.
It just loses a missile hardpoint and can still mount 8 weapons. It's just that 2 of them won't be bonused. Big frigging deal.
The kinetic bonus instead of RoF means an mere 8% damage loss, but a 33% damage loss if you wants to vary damage types
Hahahahaha... hahaha. Excuse me, I know this a personal question but... you're on drugs, right?
You obv. haven't tried fitting anything but launchers in the **** thing. Please do. You'll find once you're done with the launchers you'll need help just to fit an afterburner and a shield booster. That's why every setup for this ship that was thrown around before had NOTHING in the spare high, and will keep having nothing now.
As for the damage, it was already the lowest-damaging BC, now it falls into line with every BC since they were 1st released that does not outdamage its type-equivalent HAC.
Which is to say, its a waste of database entries, JUST LIKE THE FEROX.
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though.
Hate to disappoint you but they haven't.
Cap and cap recharge time has been increased by 50% accorss the board, cap/sec is unchanged, differences between ships are unchanged in % points. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.16 18:09:00 -
[87]
Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 18:11:21
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne oh i'm not really disappointed. a quick 50% boost to all ships is a lot easier to do than to actually increase the cap of each ship according to what is needed by that ship. so the hp boost will still favour ships that dont require cap to fire.
Ofc, after all, its too much to expect game desing to address existing problems and use moderation, instead of swinging ships from zomgovepowered to bahusless and leaving trails of broken stuff along the road
Oh and the Myrmidon STILL has more grid than the brutix.
Really guys, game design and industrial cleaner abuse dont' mix, k? ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.16 18:23:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Ath Amon ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time...
how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good?
It never tanked remotely as good. If you want to get a similar plated fit as the Hurricane was able to do with 220s and 3 guns rigs, you had to use electrons and 3 grid rigs. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:13:00 -
[89]
non-plated tanks are suicidal in kali. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:34:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Doweena What about the fact that even though the Drake has an additional launcher it has less grid than the Ferox?
The Ferox is a gunboat. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:06:00 -
[91]
Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 21:08:51
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Quote: You obv. haven't tried fitting anything but launchers in the **** thing. Please do. You'll find once you're done with the launchers you'll need help just to fit an afterburner and a shield booster. That's why every setup for this ship that was thrown around before had NOTHING in the spare high, and will keep having nothing now.
Well, see that's the entire issue at hand. You want your six missile slots be as useful as someone else's 8 turret slots. Then on the side us poor Gallente pilots are being told to fit 2x RCU II in our Hyperion just to fit the guns and that we can't have a decent dronebay on the Myrm.
Umm, no? Before, 7 launchers did about 75% of 7 guns on the Harb/Hurri. You couldn't realisticaly use the 8th high while the gunships could, but that was ok overall.
Now you have 6 launcher slots which do 50-60% of the 7 guns of the harbinger (which has the grid to fit nos in the 8th, since it has multiple weapon tiers) or 6 gun + 2 launcher on the nerfed hurricane, and you still don't have the grid to use the non-launcher highs.
Can you see the problem?
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Quote: As for the damage, it was already the lowest-damaging BC, now it falls into line with every BC since they were 1st released that does not outdamage its type-equivalent HAC.
Lol. Lowest damage? Can I have some of that stuff you're smoking?
Sorry, forgot to be specific: Lowest damage of the tier-2 BCs. Now its outdamages by some tier-1s.
Kinetic damage does not count, no1 in their right mind will use kin missiles, its a non-bonus.
In effect, the drake is now a ferox that does 20% more damage but can't use the spare highs for nos and has a harder time tanking thanks to the low grid.
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Quote: Which is to say, its a waste of database entries, JUST LIKE THE FEROX.
And the Deimos and the Hyperion and the Abbadon and the Myrmidon and the...
All the more reason to prevent them from releasing more useless ships. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.17 02:15:00 -
[92]
Stop teef! :o ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.17 03:17:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Protunia from what i have been reading thats simply not the truth.
those two had **** near the ability to bring down a BS on their own. Sorry I dont think we need BC's that cost less than a BS taking out BS's 1 on 1.
You have obviously been reading posts by people who need a clue. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.17 03:39:00 -
[94]
Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 03:40:55
Originally by: Protunia Come you know they were over powered stop playing dumb here. Even the MOD here said they were over powered.
I hope you mean dev, mods aren't more qualified than you or I.
As for the whether the person in question was right or not - i have terrible news for you, not even eve devs hold the candle of absolute tru7h - there's a fine line between balancing a ship and making it crap.
And I'll reinstate what I said. Any BS pilot who loses a ship to a Command Ship, let alone a tech I BC, is a either a nub or was asleep at the wheel.
Also, you've just proved you need to buy yourself a clue if you really believed that, even if your following statement didn't prove that you have no right to make comments on these ships:
Originally by: Protunia Anyhow After reading all the boasting going on over the last weeks I for one am glad they nerfed em.
Did you fly them? No. So you haven't got a clue of what you're talking about, like the majority of the people on these forums.
Every single post about the drake was either relating to Javelin HAMs, which are still just as broken and give a cerberus heavy electron blaster damage @ 150km, or Drake setups with 6-slot tanks, which due to the rather obvious lack of any way to hold your enemy, will only kill someone if they're asleep.
Originally by: Protunia In the end they will be balanced ALL 4 of the new BC's.
The game will be much better off for it.
I hope you don't mean balanced like the Ferox, which is to say useless to everyone but NPCers. nubs, and people who run setups that don't use 1 or more of the ship's bonuses. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.17 04:16:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Protunia I know for a fact I do not want to see a BC that can take on a BS period.
...
tell me, how exactly is a ship with 1/2 the dps and half the tank going to solo a BS?
because that's what the best of the BCs have.
if you seriously believe even for a second that a realistic setup with speed mod, web & scram could have taken on a BS and gotten anything but a freshly-drawn pint of OMGWTFPWN, you're delusional.
i'll draw you a graph of the harbinger (highest damage BC) vs your typical close-range bs so you can realize the exact extent of the stupidity of such a claim.
Linkage
Look at that and tell me exactly a ship with 65% the damage, half the tank, half the HP, half the cap, and 75% the signature radius is going to kill a BS, unless the BS pilot rides the short bus? ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.17 04:25:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Kashre The BC pilot with the best intel who brought the right EW?
What if the BS pilot has good EW too? Sensor strenght on BCs is much lower than on BS. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.17 14:39:00 -
[97]
Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 14:40:42 Yup.
The only problem HAMs have is the incredible brokenness of Javelin unguided ammo.
Apart from that, they're balanced to the point of being nearly useless to caldari, they're basically secondary weapons for gunships on every ship but the cerberus - which will run into grid problems if it wants to get into range and have any sort of tank at the same time.
Even if they balanced it to have the same range boost as jav torps, it would still be incredibly broken, just like jav torps are, even post kali nerf.
(3750*1.5*1.5)*(12*1.5*1.5)= 227km electron blasters for the cerberus.
well, not quite, the damage is a fair way off in reality (~25% less), but the range is so incredibly ludicrous that it might as well be.
While they're useless at max range for a number of reasons, since they move @ 8.4375km/s from a max-skilled cerb doing more damage than heavy missiles at greater range and faster is plenty possible.
I don't think anything more needs to be said, Javelin HAMs are broken beyond belief.
The rest of HAM ammo though, is perfectly fine.
You don't nerf a ship or a whole weapon class because of a retarded T2 ammo type, you nerf the ammo type, just like you don't remove a turret from the thron just because null/void are overpowered.
Obviously however this simple concept escapes CCP. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.17 18:06:00 -
[98]
Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 18:06:37 Yes, lets make it useless in pvp just like every other amarr sub-battleship with 3 mids.
You really are a genius, since when does "gimped for pvp" = "amarr"?
You can give it 8 guns, 100m3 drone bay and a 50% damage bonus and it will STILL SUCK if it has 3 mids.
Oh it will be a good NPC ship no doubt, but the game is full of ships which are only good at NPCing, can we have some PVP ships pls?
This applies to all races *looks at the now pve-only drake* ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.21 15:41:00 -
[99]
Myrmidon has 125m3 drone bay now, too bad the model is now incredibly broken so it cant be tested. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.21 23:18:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Ithildin The Myrmidon STILL needs larger drone bay.
Agreed.
Originally by: Ithildin Oh, and does it still have 6 turrets? It doesn't need that many turrets. In fact, sacrifice one or a couple for (at least) a doubled drone bay is a needed sacrifice.
Nope, still 6.
Totally nonsensical, just like the Drake and Hurricane changes. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:12:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Kalhystia I perfectly agree, donŠt touch Myrmidon turrets. It is like saying that Dominix is overpowered because of its 6 turrets slots. It is its capability to fit ECM+NOS which turns it into a freak, not its 6 turrets slots it canŠt even fit properly with its low powergrid.
You misunderstand. I meant its totally non-sensical to boost its drone bay and NOT remove turrets.
I think they should give it 250m3+ and drop 2-3 turrets and 1-200MW of grid. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
|
Posted - 2006.11.22 01:42:00 -
[102]
Its does about 20% more damage than the 2nd most damaggin BC (brutix) when both have no dmg mods, and a little less % (but still way more) when both have the same damage mods, AND its got 1 more mid than all gunship BCs AND it has a tank bonus where all the other 6-low BCs dont.
It needs guns taken off. Simple as that. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
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