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Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
724
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 18:35:01 -
[1] - Quote
The margin for error that mordus ships and 10mn ab T3 dessies is the cancer. Couple that with links (which usually I have no issue with) and what you get is a quickly stagnating meta where ewar and logi balls become king even in small gangs.
I mention this because kiting without these ships actually requires skill when fighting someone that is also skilled at the game. More so when you engage a larger gang/fleet. The problem is that those that are skilled and want to be the hunter rather than the hunted gravitate to kiting simply because you can pick your fights. That simple really.
Sort out the crazy high end point ranges and 10mn ab t3 dessies and we'll go back to a world where kiting isn't something my cat can do if I shine a laser pointer at my keyboard.
Sure, people will still moan at kiters as risk averse bastards but that doesn't mean it's not balanced. It's just that kiters fly smart.
That is all. |
Daerrol
Furtherance.
92
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 18:52:06 -
[2] - Quote
*Opens mouth to protest and object then is suddenly silent*
As much as I LOVE armor Brawling, this is pretty much it right here. |
Arla Sarain
379
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 19:00:19 -
[3] - Quote
Combat is still one dimensional within scram range.
And the margins between AB and MWD are the difference between black and white. There is very few moment to moment tactics you can employ when in a fight; fit determines what you can fight, which is rather narrow. A fight ends up in the opposing parties knowing the outcome and one party just waiting 60s to lose a ship. |
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
339
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 20:04:54 -
[4] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Combat is still one dimensional within scram range.
And the margins between AB and MWD are the difference between black and white. There is very few moment to moment tactics you can employ when in a fight; fit determines what you can fight, which is rather narrow. A fight ends up in the opposing parties knowing the outcome and one party just waiting 60s to lose a ship. If you believe that, you must not have had many frigate fights.
Anyway, you're slightly missing the point. It's about certain ships having it too easy kiting and not about the difference between AB and MWD fits.
pew pew
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Plato Forko
Percussive Diplomacy
145
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 20:23:08 -
[5] - Quote
The only reason people even buy obviously OP ships is because there's no shortage of idiots willing to chase after them in obviously slower ships.
It's a bit of a straw man to blame ez-mode kiting on Garmurs because there's really nothing stopping anyone from getting kills the same way in a cheap attack frig with speed mods and long-range guns. |
Doji Okakura
293
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 20:58:42 -
[6] - Quote
I love ppl flying t3 dessies in pvp. The tears when i kill them are awesome, and they were even greater when the t3's cost 200-300mill |
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
725
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 21:01:45 -
[7] - Quote
Doji Okakura wrote:I love ppl flying t3 dessies in pvp. The tears when i kill them are awesome, and they were even greater when the t3's cost 200-300mill
That's odd, I see no t3 kills on your killboard.
Nor in fact more than 20 lifetime kills.
Perhaps you accidentally posted with an alt?
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Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
725
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 21:03:08 -
[8] - Quote
Plato Forko wrote:The only reason people even buy obviously OP ships is because there's no shortage of idiots willing to chase after them in obviously slower ships.
It's a bit of a straw man to blame ez-mode kiting on Garmurs because there's really nothing stopping anyone from getting kills the same way in a cheap attack frig with speed mods and long-range guns.
True plato but any skilled pilot will kill an idiot most of the time. The issue is that the mordus ships and t3 dessies makes that skill gap completely irrelevant. 2 skilled pilots, ones in one of these OP ships, ones not. The OP ship is getting away or getting a kill 99% of the time.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1411
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 21:26:42 -
[9] - Quote
There are no shortage to garmur counters.
Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels. Cruor, reduces margin for error. Hyena, reduces margin for error. Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram. Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers. Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.
The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.
There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
565
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 21:47:27 -
[10] - Quote
And that is why you have d-scan and don't engage those ships. Once people stop leroying into obviously kite fit ships sitting in a plex, the less you will see people flying them.
Don't feed them, and they will eventually either die or change their habits. |
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Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
725
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 21:56:46 -
[11] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are no shortage to garmur counters.
Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels. Cruor, reduces margin for error. Hyena, reduces margin for error. Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram. Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers. Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.
The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.
There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing.
Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly.
Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1411
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 22:21:44 -
[12] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are no shortage to garmur counters.
Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels. Cruor, reduces margin for error. Hyena, reduces margin for error. Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram. Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers. Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.
The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.
There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing. Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly. Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like.
I guess your choice of ships would depend on if there is a garmur doing something that offends you and if you want to kill it. If not fly a garmur. if there is a ship you cant break with a garmur, go get a counter to whatever that as per established rock paper scissors rules
Though yes, the engagement/disengagement envelope of garmur can be wide depending on fit and setup, While there are counters that are much cheaper i would hesitate to say its broken. That said, i do just let some people go in structure, i feel that bad for them. But then im flying with many billions of isk invested and they are flying with 10-50m isk There absolutely should be depreciating returns, but 7bil is a lot more than 50m :p |
Dato Koppla
Konvict Cartel The Asylum.
779
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 07:11:17 -
[13] - Quote
IIRC Crosi, you fly your Garmurs linked and HG snaked, those things have no counters assuming an equal level of pilot skill. The stuff you listed has a chance of killing Garmurs IF they mess up, and that's not really an argument since X can always kill Y if Y messes bad enough up regardless of the ship.
8km/s cold Garmurs are basically immune to almost everything that can hit it. I remember trying to kill a Garmur in an LML Talwar only to find my missiles would peter out before they hit the Garmur and even then, if I did manage to hit him he could just pull range and warp out since he'd be fighting at 60km where nothing bar another Garmur/Orthrus could point him. Drones don't hit, rail corms you can just pull range and leave, faster MWD ships don't have a hope of catching you with 20km defensive scram, sentinel only neuts to 30km and is far slower, Hyena only webs to 40 and even if you get webbed, you can just warp out before he gets the point on etc etc
Garmurs are broken mostly because of how powerful offgrid links are but even then, the ship design allows you to scale ridiculously well with links that it's just stupid. |
Arla Sarain
379
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 08:36:52 -
[14] - Quote
Arty claws Vs Garmur?
Slightly slower, but more DPS, unless Garmur starts using precision missiles.
Missile damage on the claw goes down a lot. |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33827
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 10:49:27 -
[15] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are no shortage to garmur counters.
Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels. Cruor, reduces margin for error. Hyena, reduces margin for error. Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram. Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers. Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.
The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.
There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing. Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly. Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like.
If they're so strong, why don't you fly them?
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
725
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 11:21:07 -
[16] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are no shortage to garmur counters.
Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels. Cruor, reduces margin for error. Hyena, reduces margin for error. Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram. Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers. Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.
The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.
There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing. Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly. Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like. If they're so strong, why don't you fly them?
OOooh thats because I'm a scrub. I could, and I am sure I'd get lot's of lovely kills. I don't play EVE or shoot people in EVE for the killmail totals though. Beauty of a sandbox I suppose, we all get our thrills oneway or another.
Garmur - I do fly them but it's boring me shitless flying it. I like the rush of pvp and I rarely if ever get that from this ship. Orthrus - My experience with the garmur tells me I would also not enjoy this. T3 dessies - I'd be a hypocrite if I flew these, I am staunchly opposed to their inate flexibility in one ship. At least t3 cruisers have to refit.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33827
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 11:28:34 -
[17] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are no shortage to garmur counters.
Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels. Cruor, reduces margin for error. Hyena, reduces margin for error. Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram. Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers. Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.
The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.
There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing. Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly. Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like. If they're so strong, why don't you fly them? OOooh thats because I'm a scrub. I could, and I am sure I'd get lot's of lovely kills. I don't play EVE or shoot people in EVE for the killmail totals though. Beauty of a sandbox I suppose, we all get our thrills oneway or another. Garmur - I do fly them but it's boring me shitless flying it. I like the rush of pvp and I rarely if ever get that from this ship. Orthrus - My experience with the garmur tells me I would also not enjoy this. T3 dessies - I'd be a hypocrite if I flew these, I am staunchly opposed to their inate flexibility in one ship. At least t3 cruisers have to refit.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45506849/
0/10, try harder next time.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
725
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 11:32:01 -
[18] - Quote
Eh?
Ok so your input is useless :( |
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33827
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 11:45:25 -
[19] - Quote
So is yours.
You admit to not even have flown T3 Destroyers, yet you seem to have an opinion on them
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
725
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 12:41:38 -
[20] - Quote
I also have an opinion on local politics yet have never stood for office. Does this mean I am not capable of making an informed decision based on engagements against these ships or talking to those more informed than I am?
You are yet to discredit what I've said, only trying to discredit the person saying it. I shall give you a 5/10 though since I responded to you. |
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ggodhsup
relocation LLC.
76
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 15:21:55 -
[21] - Quote
it is ridiculous to me why someone would engage a kiting ship solo.
in any ship.
that being said, there is a reason i havent suffered a single lossmail to a garmur.
there are just ships that when i see them i d-scan i make sure im not on grid with them.
some people just have a hard time grasping the meta and use of d-scan. |
Dato Koppla
Konvict Cartel The Asylum.
780
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 15:31:25 -
[22] - Quote
ggodhsup wrote:it is ridiculous to me why someone would engage a kiting ship solo.
in any ship.
that being said, there is a reason i havent suffered a single lossmail to a garmur.
there are just ships that when i see them i d-scan i make sure im not on grid with them.
some people just have a hard time grasping the meta and use of d-scan.
So the counter to Garmurs is never to fight it? Sounds balanced. |
ggodhsup
relocation LLC.
76
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 17:36:49 -
[23] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:ggodhsup wrote:it is ridiculous to me why someone would engage a kiting ship solo.
in any ship.
that being said, there is a reason i havent suffered a single lossmail to a garmur.
there are just ships that when i see them i d-scan i make sure im not on grid with them.
some people just have a hard time grasping the meta and use of d-scan. So the counter to Garmurs is never to fight it? Sounds balanced.
read solo.
you seem mad.
hard time grasping the meta? maybe d-scan?
either way, my point stands. it will take half an afternoon to train a maulus alt on a free account, ill let you figure out the rest.
edit: better yet have a corp mate help you. solo fights are for youtube vids. |
Little Kicks
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 18:21:52 -
[24] - Quote
Your opinions are invalid. You cannot know about life without experiencing the entirety of it. Call back when you are dead.
*wink* |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1411
|
Posted - 2015.04.11 19:49:46 -
[25] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:IIRC Crosi, you fly your Garmurs linked and HG snaked, those things have no counters assuming an equal level of pilot skill. The stuff you listed has a chance of killing Garmurs IF they mess up, and that's not really an argument since X can always kill Y if Y messes bad enough up regardless of the ship.
8km/s cold Garmurs are basically immune to almost everything that can hit it. I remember trying to kill a Garmur in an LML Talwar only to find my missiles would peter out before they hit the Garmur and even then, if I did manage to hit him he could just pull range and warp out since he'd be fighting at 60km where nothing bar another Garmur/Orthrus could point him. Drones don't hit, rail corms you can just pull range and leave, faster MWD ships don't have a hope of catching you with 20km defensive scram, sentinel only neuts to 30km and is far slower, Hyena only webs to 40 and even if you get webbed, you can just warp out before he gets the point on etc etc
Garmurs are broken mostly because of how powerful offgrid links are but even then, the ship design allows you to scale ridiculously well with links that it's just stupid.
The fact that garmur has a lot of GTFO isnt a problem. It shares this with a lot of ships. Fact is any kite ship has plenty of GTFO if its user is paying attention. |
Liam Inkuras
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
1510
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 00:53:10 -
[26] - Quote
Crosi is the Garmur pilot of my heart
I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1411
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 02:21:17 -
[27] - Quote
Liam Inkuras wrote:Crosi is the Garmur pilot of my heart
Glad to see you have calmed down. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
565
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 05:41:35 -
[28] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:There are no shortage to garmur counters.
Sentinel, reduces margin for error to minimal levels. Cruor, reduces margin for error. Hyena, reduces margin for error. Dramiel, faster, tankier and more dps. Though weak vs defensive scram. Multiple sniper corms or area denial coercers. Element of surprise with an OH, dual overdrive derptron gets a lot of people garmur kills.
The one property that a boosted rep fleet point garmur has in common with all of these is its 2-200x more expensive.
There is no denying that kiting was a lot more challenging for me when i flew the maulus more, its incorrect to say there is no paper for the garmurs stone. Shiny killmails in space waiting to happen is a good thing. Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly. Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like. If they're so strong, why don't you fly them? OOooh thats because I'm a scrub. I could, and I am sure I'd get lot's of lovely kills. I don't play EVE or shoot people in EVE for the killmail totals though. Beauty of a sandbox I suppose, we all get our thrills oneway or another. Garmur - I do fly them but it's boring me shitless flying it. I like the rush of pvp and I rarely if ever get that from this ship. Orthrus - My experience with the garmur tells me I would also not enjoy this. T3 dessies - I'd be a hypocrite if I flew these, I am staunchly opposed to their inate flexibility in one ship. At least t3 cruisers have to refit. https://zkillboard.com/kill/45506849/ 0/10, try harder next time.
So OP loses Garmur. Decides Garmurs are over powered. Comes to spew sentiment all over forums. Is that about it? |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
180
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 09:06:27 -
[29] - Quote
Garmurs would be alot more reasonable without offgrid links. |
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic Space Warriors
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 09:16:57 -
[30] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Garmurs would be alot more reasonable without offgrid links.
i do not see how links affect anything on ship balance. |
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