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Dread Operative
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
434
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Posted - 2015.04.28 19:31:32 -
[91] - Quote
Math is hard. |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
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Posted - 2015.04.28 19:42:08 -
[92] - Quote
Yea lets celebrate a culture where the nerds who spend the most isk invariably win.
Sounds like a great basis for a pvp game. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1413
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Posted - 2015.04.28 20:23:36 -
[93] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Math is hard.
No doubt in your tz they are a bit weaker, snufd actually push suj local to 100 in theirs. |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
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Posted - 2015.04.29 00:52:55 -
[94] - Quote
the fleet meta is already isk2win
the frigate meta doesnt have to be that way |
Yuri Antollare
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
119
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Posted - 2015.04.29 05:51:45 -
[95] - Quote
Lug Muad'Dib wrote:Pilot like Crosi are OP, not the Garmur. If you need a blob to kill a garmur.. two fast 3m isk atron can kill a garmur with def scram, try this versus a worm.. Garmur has lot of counter and great gtfo capacity, more with snake and links, like many other ships..
Those two derptrons have about 4k ehp each, one if not both will be dead by the time they get close enough to think they had a chance. Lest we mention the defensive scram for the survivor.
You are correct though, Crosi is one of the best pilots around, I'm not a fan of links but at least he uses them 'right,' taking on odds where any other setup would die.
This doesn't have to be so personal. Individuals aside, the Garmur has probably the least number of counters out there. Most other frigates with boosts, Incursus/other brawlers, or LML frigate/slicer, still have plenty of hard counters out there, even if the opponent doesn't have his own boosts. Cookie Cutter Slasher fits will trash a linked brawler, and even with boosts the traditional kiting ships out there have their weaknesses from weapons range to overall speed. I could slap a RF long point and boosts on a Slicer, but I'd have to lose my pulse lasers, I could do the same to a condor but I'm still limited to my missile range (42km), which is putting you at least within the margin of error of being ****** with by someone competent.
With the Garmur, you could fit a specific hard counter, with the same boosts/implants, and still only have a 1/2 chance of making it out alive let alone killing the Garmur. The entire t1 frigate line is no good, all are significantly slower and lack the EHP to survive chasing down a Garmur and getting scram, the defensive scram again, a serious final hurdle.
Other faction/pirate frigates and EAFs, I'd give it a shot in a structure tanked blaster Comet. I'm still slower by 2k m/s and again if the Garmur has a defensive scram, chances are not great. Now a Dram gets close, still slower all else being equal and again, the defensive scram is rough. You could fit an overdrive and drop a gyrostab, leaving you with the same dps as a Garmur, but with the Garmur having 70km of lead time to shoot you in the face, your small AAR only runs 40 seconds without a cap booster as well. You could medium shield extend it but you only get 2.8k more ehp than the Garmur just running a DCU, bout 25 seconds worth of Garmur shooting you in the face. Again, presuming the Garmur is running away that 25 seconds won't cover the time it takes you to catch him, which is never because again, you're still slower.
Apparently Hyena and Sentinel were bandied about but I'm going to assume those were troll suggestions. A hyena could web out to 68km, might take him a while to kill you with his 25 dps though. Sentinel, 30km neuts versus a ship almost twice as quick as you orbiting at 60km...
Just seems too dominant to me, bonuses in point/weapon range and inherent strong stats that scale amazingly well with boosts, OP is built into the ships DNA. Hands down best in class by a massive margin. |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 07:01:16 -
[96] - Quote
yuri says the same thing as me
but he prefaces it by gently caressing crosi's tiny little peanuts
good strat yuri good strat |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 08:53:44 -
[97] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:Lug Muad'Dib wrote:Pilot like Crosi are OP, not the Garmur. If you need a blob to kill a garmur.. two fast 3m isk atron can kill a garmur with def scram, try this versus a worm.. Garmur has lot of counter and great gtfo capacity, more with snake and links, like many other ships.. Those two derptrons have about 4k ehp each, one if not both will be dead by the time they get close enough to think they had a chance. Lest we mention the defensive scram for the survivor. You are correct though, Crosi is one of the best pilots around, I'm not a fan of links but at least he uses them 'right,' taking on odds where any other setup would die. This doesn't have to be so personal. Individuals aside, the Garmur has probably the least number of counters out there. Most other frigates with boosts, Incursus/other brawlers, or LML frigate/slicer, still have plenty of hard counters out there, even if the opponent doesn't have his own boosts. Cookie Cutter Slasher fits will trash a linked brawler, and even with boosts the traditional kiting ships out there have their weaknesses from weapons range to overall speed. I could slap a RF long point and boosts on a Slicer, but I'd have to lose my pulse lasers, I could do the same to a condor but I'm still limited to my missile range (42km), which is putting you at least within the margin of error of being ****** with by someone competent. With the Garmur, you could fit a specific hard counter, with the same boosts/implants, and still only have a 1/2 chance of making it out alive let alone killing the Garmur. The entire t1 frigate line is no good, all are significantly slower and lack the EHP to survive chasing down a Garmur and getting scram, the defensive scram again, a serious final hurdle. Other faction/pirate frigates and EAFs, I'd give it a shot in a structure tanked blaster Comet. I'm still slower by 2k m/s and again if the Garmur has a defensive scram, chances are not great. Now a Dram gets close, still slower all else being equal and again, the defensive scram is rough. You could fit an overdrive and drop a gyrostab, leaving you with the same dps as a Garmur, but with the Garmur having 70km of lead time to shoot you in the face, your small AAR only runs 40 seconds without a cap booster as well. You could medium shield extend it but you only get 2.8k more ehp than the Garmur just running a DCU, bout 25 seconds worth of Garmur shooting you in the face. Again, presuming the Garmur is running away that 25 seconds won't cover the time it takes you to catch him, which is never because again, you're still slower. Apparently Hyena and Sentinel were bandied about but I'm going to assume those were troll suggestions. A hyena could web out to 68km, might take him a while to kill you with his 25 dps though. Sentinel, 30km neuts versus a ship almost twice as quick as you orbiting at 60km... Just seems too dominant to me, bonuses in point/weapon range and inherent strong stats that scale amazingly well with boosts, OP is built into the ships DNA. Hands down best in class by a massive margin.
Problem with this analysis, is you take all the attributes possible for a garmur and assume every garmur has them all. A tank, long lock range, extreme damage projection, extreme speed, good dps, expensive mods, long and short point etc. While the garmur is extremely good its nessasary to pick which attributes you get since you cant have them all.
In the end i dont disagree that the garmur has few counters on a 1v1 level when you scale up the isk and support. Though boosted, snaked dual tackle garmurs are quite rare in my experience. Have killed a couple wth 2/3 derptrons tho, boosts wouldnt have mattered since the derp can do 10kms OH if you are, and element of shock is worth more than 1000 defensive scrams.
I also dont disagree with the idea of removing a mod slot to force people to chose their engagement envelope but when he suggested it wil had already mentioned my man meat twice so i thought he was more interested in that.
Speaking of which, unfortunate relapse there wil :( dont give up man. You will be a lot happier when you start giving your own genitals at least as much attention as everyone mine. |
Nathan Shepert
Garbage and Filth Removal Associates
0
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Posted - 2015.04.29 10:00:35 -
[98] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:And that is why you have d-scan and don't engage those ships. Once people stop leroying into obviously kite fit ships sitting in a plex, the less you will see people flying them.
Don't feed them, and they will eventually either die or change their habits.
^^^^^Easy like that !!!
People buy things they don´t need, with money they don´t have, to
impress people they don´t like !
Walter Slezak
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Nook Alms
Moira. Villore Accords
0
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Posted - 2015.04.29 12:48:27 -
[99] - Quote
Crosi's garmur is easy to beat, just join GalMil, haven't lost to him once |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 14:28:40 -
[100] - Quote
crosi's garmur is easy to beat because he's a coward who runs double sebo
the instant you land on grid with a fast ship he's gonna warp or die because his fit is purely for KM whoring so he can have a nice killboard while being a rubbish pilot
thats also why you should take crosi's argument that the garmur can be killed by an atron or a dramiel with a grain of salt. because he doesnt fit the thing that makes the garmur truly op: the long range defensive scram |
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Lug Muad'Dib
Wise Humans Sword
40
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:35:46 -
[101] - Quote
Lol. Crosi is galMil FYI, was a joke.
Why so jealous ? All kiter will leave field if they know they're an antikiter more fast, only idiots will stay, like only idiots will try to engage a garmur in an AB frig.. You're just whining cause he's a good pilot, cute. And yes fast atron or dramiel can kill a garmur with long defensive scram.. just look TrouserDeagle killboard, he do that all days without any links.
Yuri Antollare wrote: Those two derptrons have about 4k ehp each, one if not both will be dead by the time they get close enough to think they had a chance. Lest we mention the defensive scram for the survivor.
I already did that and without snake, scram def isn't god mod, and LM dps application versus very fast frig is really bad.
D-Scan immunity is dumb.
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33864
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 16:22:58 -
[102] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:ive killed countless garmurs by being the initial point/scram with a ceptor, which then was followed with a blob
doesnt mean the ship is balanced
if you even bothered to read any of the posts you respond to you would see that my contention is not that garmurs are invincible; my contention is that garmurs (and orthrus and t3 dessies for that matter) are conceptually flawed. anti-fun. blob-encouraging. damaging to the solo/smallgang meta.
they shouldnt exist. they take a problem (the kiting supremacy) and exacerbate it.
The thing is EVE isn't a solo game.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3813
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 20:17:46 -
[103] - Quote
7.500 dead Garmurs for your enjoyment: https://zkillboard.com/ship/33816/losses/
15 killed solo just on the first page.
The Garmur's stats may be a tad excessive, but smart EVE players always find a way to kill stuff (and/or dumb players find ways to lose stuff).
I agree with Crosi that more shiny ships is ok for the game. Creates content in many different ways, including, of course, popcorn threads like this one.
If 'honorable 1v1s' are your cup of tea, just fly standard frigs without links and engage standard frigs that you presume do not have links. Leave the linky op-ish stuff to those who enjoy flying - and hunting - them.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 20:19:27 -
[104] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:crosi's garmur is easy to beat because he's a coward who runs double sebo
the instant you land on grid with a fast ship he's gonna warp or die because his fit is purely for KM whoring so he can have a nice killboard while being a rubbish pilot
thats also why you should take crosi's argument that the garmur can be killed by an atron or a dramiel with a grain of salt. because he doesnt fit the thing that makes the garmur truly op: the long range defensive scram
Wouldnt running a defensive scram be more cowardly? Dual sebo is an offensive set up for acquiring tackle at 12kms and increasing chances of tackling pods. And you are correct i do wh0re on all my solo* kills.
*not to be mistaken for trusoloTM |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
601
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:45:29 -
[105] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:7.500 dead Garmurs for your enjoyment: https://zkillboard.com/ship/33816/losses/ 15 killed solo just on the first page. The Garmur's stats may be a tad excessive, but smart EVE players always find a way to kill stuff (and/or dumb players find ways to lose stuff). I agree with Crosi that more shiny ships is ok for the game. Creates content in many different ways, including, of course, popcorn threads like this one. If 'honorable 1v1s' are your cup of tea, just fly standard frigs without links and engage standard frigs that you presume do not have links. Leave the linky op-ish stuff to those who enjoy flying - and hunting - them.
That doesn't really help the argument that they are not OP, as 111,134 ships have been destroyed by Garmurs. Do the math and you find that 7500 is a rather low loss rate compared to the damage it has done.
Not saying I'm against the Garmur, but those stats are not a good comparison to show the ship is not OP.
The ship is expensive, and to be flown properly it has to have an expensive fit plus expensive implants. Yet, it can be killed by ships in large groups that are very inexpensive. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 22:31:38 -
[106] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:7.500 dead Garmurs for your enjoyment: https://zkillboard.com/ship/33816/losses/ 15 killed solo just on the first page. The Garmur's stats may be a tad excessive, but smart EVE players always find a way to kill stuff (and/or dumb players find ways to lose stuff). I agree with Crosi that more shiny ships is ok for the game. Creates content in many different ways, including, of course, popcorn threads like this one. If 'honorable 1v1s' are your cup of tea, just fly standard frigs without links and engage standard frigs that you presume do not have links. Leave the linky op-ish stuff to those who enjoy flying - and hunting - them. That doesn't really help the argument that they are not OP, as 111,134 ships have been destroyed by Garmurs. Do the math and you find that 7500 is a rather low loss rate compared to the damage it has done. Not saying I'm against the Garmur, but those stats are not a good comparison to show the ship is not OP. The ship is expensive, and to be flown properly it has to have an expensive fit plus expensive implants. Yet, it can be killed by ships in large groups that are very inexpensive.
You are misreading the statistics, its the nature of how killboards work. Its very much like my killboard says ive killed 13k and only lost 700, in and of itself, that isnt a useful number or illustrative of my combat record. it might be an indication that i always fly in a blob or that i only kill ibis in rookie systems.
For example, the garmur has a 93% k/d efficiency and an 84% isk efficiency. If we compare that to something in its class the dramiel has a 90% k/d efficiency and a 90% isk efficiency. Not so far apart.
The problem with these numbers is they are almost meaningless and apply in NO WAY to any discussion of balance. since it doesnt adjust for number of people on killmails and a few other things. |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 01:18:27 -
[107] - Quote
crosi all your so-called "solo" kills are snaked/linked in the most op frigate in the game against caldari militia pilots who we both know cannot even tie their own shoes much less pvp
the fact that a frigate can put 200dps out to a 60k point while doing 12kms kinda sounds like an april fools joke. but no. its real. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 02:27:11 -
[108] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:crosi all your so-called "solo" kills are snaked/linked in the most op frigate in the game against caldari militia pilots who we both know cannot even tie their own shoes much less pvp
the fact that a frigate can put 200dps out to a 60k point while doing 12kms kinda sounds like an april fools joke. but no. its real.
I already disclaimed the word 'solo', as for 200 dps at 12kms, are you high? Dont answer that, your prescribed medication is your business. |
Leokokim
Mining Industry Exile Foundation Warlords of the Deep
32
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 08:36:20 -
[109] - Quote
I'm posting the same here as I already did in an Orthrus thread...
Yes, Garmur is op (worm too), and either CCP changes it or not.
The good side is, compared to other games, ships being OP does not actually break EVE. You are free to decide what to engage, and if you would not engage 3 speed fit condors who have a Keres with them for points, then you should not engage a linked snaked garmur, because that's what it is.
Not being able to engage a single ship with your single ship is an annoying feeling, but just think: if that ship would be 4 ships, you couldn't engage that either.
So yeah, the current solution is: fly the same ship (with multipliers) or don't engage... (or engage and hope it's an scrub with no links no snakes and no defensive scram) |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3813
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 08:52:28 -
[110] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:That doesn't really help the argument that they are not OP, as 111,134 ships have been destroyed by Garmurs. Do the math and you find that 7500 is a rather low loss rate compared to the damage it has done.
Not saying I'm against the Garmur, but those stats are not a good comparison to show the ship is not OP That's because I wasn't arguing that the Garmur isn't OP, I was pointing out that it creates content.
Thus, it's good for the game.
For example, compare the Garmur's zkill stats to another fairly OP ship (if you consider frigate 1v1s): the Sentinel.
Less kills, many more losses, but overall much less used than the Garmur, for whatever reason.
As Leokokim pointed out in the above post, the Garmur is arguably OP but it doesn't break the game.
Why? Because it's used almost exclusively in 'for fun' PVP (solo/small gang) where it's the players that decide whether to fly it / engage it or not (aka 'the meta').
Fleet boats such as the Ishtar are another matter, because they're often flown not just 'for the lulz' but to secure in-game objectives (such as SOV battles). In this case, having an OP ship is not so good simply because everyone will want to use it (to secure their objective) over other alternatives, thus making the game a bit dull.
I frankly don't see everyone flying Garmurs...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
601
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 13:13:32 -
[111] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:That doesn't really help the argument that they are not OP, as 111,134 ships have been destroyed by Garmurs. Do the math and you find that 7500 is a rather low loss rate compared to the damage it has done.
Not saying I'm against the Garmur, but those stats are not a good comparison to show the ship is not OP That's because I wasn't arguing that the Garmur isn't OP, I was pointing out that it creates content. Thus, it's good for the game. For example, compare the Garmur's zkill stats to another fairly OP ship (if you consider frigate 1v1s): the Sentinel. Less kills, many more losses, but overall much less used than the Garmur, for whatever reason. As Leokokim pointed out in the above post, the Garmur is arguably OP but it doesn't break the game. Why? Because it's used almost exclusively in 'for fun' PVP (solo/small gang) where it's the players that decide whether to fly it / engage it or not (aka 'the meta'). Fleet boats such as the Ishtar are another matter, because they're often flown not just 'for the lulz' but to secure in-game objectives (such as SOV battles). In this case, having an OP ship is not so good simply because everyone will want to use it (to secure their objective) over other alternatives, thus making the game a bit dull. I frankly don't see everyone flying Garmurs...
Yeah, I have no problem with Garmurs. Was just pointing out, and as Crosi explained, that stats really don't help with the balance argument.
My personal solution to Garmurs, don't engage them.
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
200
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:34:31 -
[112] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:My personal solution to Garmurs, don't engage them.
It's the reason people who like to PvP fly other stuff... at least some of the time. If you fly Op ships all of the time then you have a problem "engineering" a situation where you get a fight as others do "engineering" a situation to catch you. Most people wont come near a Worm or Garmur already at a plex.
However, Garmur's are unsual as they have a high (prob)ability to "catch" an unwilling opponent, better than any other ship (along with Keres (and also a bit the Lachesis since the changes)) due to their high mobility and speed and long point.
The Skirmish Links accentuate this ability to "catch" an opponent on your terms. Perhaps it's just that particular mod that extends point and web range that should be changed?
Most of the time though you can choose not to get caught in a situation that favours the Garmur pilot or burn back to the gate and jump out.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Fourteen Maken
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted.
150
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Posted - 2015.04.30 18:58:50 -
[113] - Quote
I think the point range bonus shouldn't apply to scrams, and the speed and agility needs nerfed a bit so we have more hard counters. That's all, nothing too crazy because all pirate frigs are good. The worm probably needs the drone dps reduced a bit but again nothing too crazy. Please don't break them before I get to fly one with proper skills. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:00:16 -
[114] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:I think the point range bonus shouldn't apply to scrams, and the speed and agility needs nerfed a bit so we have more hard counters. That's all, nothing too crazy because all pirate frigs are good. The worm probably needs the drone dps reduced a bit but again nothing too crazy. Please don't break them before I get to fly one with proper skills.
Nerfing things hard doesnt mean you have more hard counters, it means you have less things to fight. Just wanted to say that. |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:08:09 -
[115] - Quote
crosi's spew should be disregarded because the only thing hes concerned with is his own entertainment. everything he says is self serving.
nerfing the scram bonus isnt that great of a nerf imo
base speed needs to be reduced. and capacitor needs to be nuked, or a mid needs to be nuked
also we need to dicuss the t3 dessies.
as i already said they are pretty much a joke as the 10mn coercer and 10mn thrasher were already incredibly strong. the t3 dessies are just even stronger versions of them. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:15:42 -
[116] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:crosi's spew should be disregarded because the only thing hes concerned with is his own entertainment. everything he says is self serving.
nerfing the scram bonus isnt that great of a nerf imo
base speed needs to be reduced. and capacitor needs to be nuked, or a mid needs to be nuked
also we need to dicuss the t3 dessies.
as i already said they are pretty much a joke as the 10mn coercer and 10mn thrasher were already incredibly strong. the t3 dessies are just even stronger versions of them.
Ill only fly some other ship then you will have to rage about how that needs nerfing lol.
Benefits of a perfect cross-trail :) |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:23:41 -
[117] - Quote
crosi is so full of himself he actually thinks all discussions about ship balance are because of him
crosi you are bad
you are not even in gal mils top 20 solo killers |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:27:49 -
[118] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:crosi is so full of himself he actually thinks all discussions about ship balance are because of him
crosi you are bad
you are not even in gal mils top 20 solo killers
yet you raged about how lame the maulus was when i flew it ;)
AFAIK, im 27th of all pilots of all time on BC, which is not as good as some gal mil pilots that have been afk for over a year. Im actually really bad at eve, no doubt. |
wilgotna
Rubtech Equity Research Group
39
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 02:29:51 -
[119] - Quote
i did no such thing
in fact i was a far better maulus pilot than you |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1414
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Posted - 2015.05.01 02:32:17 -
[120] - Quote
wilgotna wrote:i did no such thing
in fact i was a far better maulus pilot than you
I have no idea about that, but while you were calling me lame for only flying a maulus you were using my maulus fit :) |
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