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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:54:00 -
[1]
Exploration and Scan Probing in Kali
Source: TomB Dev Blog
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Probes We will change probes so that they are capable of scanning as singletons and give results on found objects. This means you wonÆt need three probes to create a pizza-alike triangle to find objects within. They are getting scan strength which is used for finding objects. Inaccuracy and scan radius will also be getting some tuning to increase usability of all the probes.
Lost & Found Just finding objects will be based on the probe type you are using. Its stats will 'battle' against the stats of the objects within its scan radius, if the probe wins it finds the object and gives you the estimated location of the findings.
The factors used on the objects for this mini-battle are signature radius (big is bad) and scan strength (high is good), where frigates are commonly harder to find than battleships/ capital ships, while recon based ships are in general the hardest ships to find.
Inaccuracy Inaccuracy has been modified as well; the harder it was for the probe to find the object, the higher the probability of error. Still there is a little chance factored here, so you might get lucky/unlucky with a sloppy long range probe and land in the face of the thing you scanned.
Addons New stuff will be added to make players that want to specialize init to become better, faster and more stylish atit:
* 1x new Launcher (Recon Probe Launcher; fast and deadly - made for ship scanning) * ?x new Probes (special ones to find special things) * 2-3x new Skills (increased efficiency, faster scanning (Astrometrics changed to give more groups to scan for) and perhaps faster deployment)
UI / Usability We have improved the scanning window in many ways, making it easier to operate and changed all this no-good group selection thingy while still adding more stuff to scan for. But instead of selecting a single ship group as you do today, we have merged a lot of groups to keep it more simple, making it only five groups to scan for, and these five groups can also be scanned for at the same time if you have the skillz.
One of these groups is just ôShipsö - selecting that group scans for all ship types in the game, this and the new recon scanning should make it a lot faster for scanner dudes to pin-point a ship in a system.
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Forum comments from TomB
TomB:
Now there's something I forgot to mention;
1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses 3. Inaccuracy is stacked as well with even freakier results, "stacking" a probe with high inaccruacy and another one with low inaccuracy won't give the same results as if the low inaccuracy would have given you
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Quote: So basicly safespotting remains the Uber and anyone who has managed to create an off grid safespot 10 warps out from any point of the system is sill impossible to find and kill?
There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will.
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Quote: I would also like to know about the possibility of scanning for a cloaked ship.
Cloaked ships will be scanable, but they won't get uncloaked if they are found on the scanner.
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Quote: Can recon launchers only be fitted on recon ships?
Woopsie, the name "Recon Launcher" has nothing to do with Recon ships there, it's just called that atm, Covert Ops are still supposed to be equally or even more scan based than Recons. I'll get the name changed, thanks for pointing that out.
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Aertuun on 27/10/2006 16:56:17 Edited by: Aertuun on 27/10/2006 16:55:36
Quote: Will deadspace signatures for exploration items always be in the same systems?
These deadspace signatures won't be static, you can read more about it here.
Or here:
"We are creating a distribution mechanic that will deploy hidden locations throughout space, pockets which will move to new locations when they feel like it, but dependent on what the pilots are doing in the world. With this Exploration system, players of all types will be able to strike gold, hit the jack pot, find the golden pot under the rainbow or what ever someone might call it."
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Dev blog showing examples of exploration and scan probing:
A Story of Elvis and Sigfried
And comment:
TomB: The colour shows how hard it was to spot the found object, which leads to inaccuracy of the scan result. Red means: that thing is so big that it glows in dark space.
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Screenshots of new probe modules:
Screenshot 1 Screenshot 2
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Comments following the opening of Kali testing:
Tuxford:
The recon probe launchers are more for hunting ships. The other probes, gravimetric and such named are very accurate but take a lot of time to scan. They are mostly useful for finding celestial anomalies.
Tuxford:
Ok here's the deal with snoop probes. They are really expected to go into the recon probes which has a two minute base scan time. With good skills you can put them into the scan probe launchers but why would you do that. You're better of using one of the bigger probes if you're gonna do that anyway.
Tuxford:
Actually snoop, spook, fathom, ferret and so on are all better in the recon probe launcher. If you can fit it in the recon probe launcher, use that one because its scans faster. Of course those gravimetric, radar, lader and magnetometric probes don't fit in the recon probe launcher.
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 16:57:00 -
[3]
-- reserved --
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:20:00 -
[4]
how about a button to remove:
1. empty floating ships (boardable) like shuttle and noob ships...(empty ships inside FF) from scann results 2. ships of gang mates / alliance / corp mates / pilots with high standings from scannresults -> apply overview settings on scannresults!
main problem at moment is still that you cannot scan for war targets effectively as long as you get results for friendly ships
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Cicilus Hadrican
Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 03:17:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Effei Gloom how about a button to remove:
1. empty floating ships (boardable) like shuttle and noob ships...(empty ships inside FF) from scann results 2. ships of gang mates / alliance / corp mates / pilots with high standings from scannresults -> apply overview settings on scannresults!
main problem at moment is still that you cannot scan for war targets effectively as long as you get results for friendly ships
have to agree with effei on this. Maybe an option such as "Use Overview Settings" sorta like that scanner, but allows to remove scanning friendly signatures. Kinda annoying to warp to a friendly pos and curse at the couple mil in probes you wasted
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Riley Craven
Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.28 05:39:00 -
[6]
Can you list out the descriptions and reqs of the items and skills as well in your screenies?
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Panta Rei
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 09:07:00 -
[7]
Good post, nice to see a summery
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:54:00 -
[8]
I¦ve played a "bit" with scan probes and my results are the following:
*) The scan strength of the "fast" long-range-probes (specially ferret and observator) is quite low. You would need several scans to even find a BS. Specially Observator is pretty useless in the moment. In most cases the "racial" quest probe is much better. It takes much longer for a single scan, but you would have to make several scans with the observator probe anyway. Only for even bigger distances the observator probe would be needed.
*) The inaccuracy seems to be buggy in 26098. Only in the cases with a very low scan strength I get a scan deviation. Normally I am able to warp directly at 15km to the target.
*) The ability to see your scan results on your solarsystem-view is great, most times this should be enough to seperate friendly ships from hostile ships.
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Mephysto
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Posted - 2006.10.28 13:21:00 -
[9]
Nice info listing.
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Gragnor
Order of the Arrow
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Posted - 2006.10.28 22:41:00 -
[10]
Could someone please elaborate on what is meant by the ability to scan down recon ships? This sounds like a nerf to cloaking?
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Bohoba
Caldari The Dark Angles
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Posted - 2006.10.29 02:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gragnor Could someone please elaborate on what is meant by the ability to scan down recon ships? This sounds like a nerf to cloaking?
I think what he said was Yes you will be able to scan a cloaked ship but the ship will be cloaked so they will still be safe. somewhat
now we have a chance to get that AFK cloaker in local :)
I have to see how this works, I can see a problem with this also if you warp in 20 peeps and have them launch drones and buzz the area. Or the co-ops after warping to the spot just uses approch to decloak you. hummm the first I don't have a problem with, but the approch thing I would. we will have to test this out once test server comes back online.
Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all |
Iog Krugar
Gallente The Rising Stars
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Posted - 2006.10.29 14:10:00 -
[12]
i know its been posted, but my search skills fail me... could someone please post a link to the KALI Covert Ops changes to CPU and such, i think that info would make sense in this sticky.
thanks
--- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods |
Roderick Blaine
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Posted - 2006.10.29 19:57:00 -
[13]
It should not be possible to get a location of at least a cloaked ship as near as lets say 60km.
Why, because that would it make way too easy to find it using drones or a frigate swarm, as already mentioned. The cloaked ship would have no chance especially if it is BS that can not move fast or warp out.
With a range of 60km the cloaked ship would be forced to stay cloaked.
Also consider that these changes are very good for pirates when they want to kill mission runners.
Another thing that should be changed together with the probe change is that you can explicitly scan for probes using the scanner filter. That is currently not possible. When you currently try to use the scanner to find out if someone is scanning you, you have to guess based on the ship types or you have to do a complete scan. A complete scan takes ages. And the ships that are scanning may warp far away after launching the probe before they start to perform the actual scan.
The balance in this change is very important. It must not be too easy to find someone/something in space just as it should not be possible to hide for ever if one is idle.
Also one thing that must be check is that a probe should not be able to find a ship that is warping around while the scan is performed. And what about fast moving ships. What position will be found by a probe that scanns for 2 minutes when the ships is traveling 70km?
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Sexorella hotz
Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.29 20:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Roderick Blaine It should not be possible to get a location of at least a cloaked ship as near as lets say 60km.
Why, because that would it make way too easy to find it using drones or a frigate swarm, as already mentioned. The cloaked ship would have no chance especially if it is BS that can not move fast or warp out.
With a range of 60km the cloaked ship would be forced to stay cloaked.
Also consider that these changes are very good for pirates when they want to kill mission runners.
Another thing that should be changed together with the probe change is that you can explicitly scan for probes using the scanner filter. That is currently not possible. When you currently try to use the scanner to find out if someone is scanning you, you have to guess based on the ship types or you have to do a complete scan. A complete scan takes ages. And the ships that are scanning may warp far away after launching the probe before they start to perform the actual scan.
The balance in this change is very important. It must not be too easy to find someone/something in space just as it should not be possible to hide for ever if one is idle.
Also one thing that must be check is that a probe should not be able to find a ship that is warping around while the scan is performed. And what about fast moving ships. What position will be found by a probe that scanns for 2 minutes when the ships is traveling 70km?
Just my thoughts on teh first point, a covops of any sort can easily get away if he's paying attention and realizes people are trying to spot him. Which makes sense. As for the mission runner in a raven who fits a cloak to hide when someone shows up in local, they get what they deserve(Mind you I'm a buzzard and a raven pilot, so I get both ends of that stick, never have fitted a cloak on the raven though). To give you an idea though, assuming we jump 20 guys to search a ball of space of 60km radius, that's nearly 20000 km3 that they have ot search, and they don't even know where the center of that ball(the target it, so it gets worse, and the target can fly away, albeit slowly, or he can align, come out of cloak, and quickly warp away. Point is, cloaked folks are still going to be fairly safe. Be nice to get the AFK ones though.
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.29 21:45:00 -
[15]
Two questions:
a) Are ships that warp between 2 safe spots still essentially 100% invulnerable to probes?
b) If you scan out a cloaked ship, warp to its location, and then simply click you speed gauge to start moving, will that put you on a collision course with the cloaked ship, like it does when you warp in on an object from a normal warp.
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Darkcraft
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.29 22:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Darkcraft on 29/10/2006 22:25:34 Not that i have a basis for my answers but..
a. A ship that warps between 2 safe spots isn't 100% invulnerable, difficult but not impossible. I've managed to ***** the safe of a ship warping between safes, just happened to be able to get close enough to one of the safes and start scanning such that the target arrived at his safe just before the scan completed. Warped to his safe, confirmed to *****, and proceeded to line up a warp in for when he next came back. I know this has been of no use to you, but its not 100% garan.
b. i'd imagine it would stay as is, when you warp to a found signature you're not pointed on a direct course right at your target. I'm not sure how its worked out but i've never arrived at a safe and just had to fly straight.
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Langhorn
Gallente BMF Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:08:00 -
[17]
in my opinion the skill requirements for some of the new exploration probes is to harsh. At the moment, they all need Astrometrics 5. This, coupled with the new bonus given by the Astrometrics skill to scan for different amount of groups leads to an all or nothing situation.
I would rather see some of the probes changed to have lower skill level requirements to promote progression towards being a master explorer.
For example.
Astrometrics 1 - Basic Ship and moon scanning probes + use of probe launchers Astrometrics 2 - Can now scan for 2 groups, plus use the 4 Quest probes. Astrometrics 3 - Can now scan for 3 groups, plus use the 4 Pursuit Probes. Astrometrics 4 - Can now scan for 4 groups, plus use the 4 Comb Probes. Astrometrics 5 - Can now scan for 5 groups, plus use the 4 Sift Probes.
I have not included the other ship and moon survey probe details beyond first level. |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.30 16:46:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Matthew on 30/10/2006 16:46:57 Edited by: Matthew on 30/10/2006 16:46:11
Originally by: Illuminaty b) If you scan out a cloaked ship, warp to its location, and then simply click you speed gauge to start moving, will that put you on a collision course with the cloaked ship, like it does when you warp in on an object from a normal warp.
That should only happen if you're very lucky, given that the error on your warp-in could be in any direction from the target - i.e. it's just as likely that you warp to a point 60km to one side of the target rather than 60km in front of the target.
E.g., with Y=You, T=Target, and W=point you exit warp at:
Y------------W------T will do as you describe. However, you could just as easily have:
Y------------T------W and just flying forward will get you further from the target.
Of course, you're likely to have something in between, such as:
Y------------W .............| .............T
EDIT: ok, so ascii art messed up on the last one, imagine the | coming down from the W, with the T below that. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Cosmic Flame
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Posted - 2006.10.30 18:59:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Cosmic Flame on 30/10/2006 19:16:45 One thing wrong currently on TQ scanner which imho should be corrected (if not done so on Kali) is the Inability to remove neutral standings pilots from overview. In an empire war, people to whom we don't have standings towards matter not. Why can't we set it up so ONLY WAR TARGETS so up? It's not possible as there is no option to remove "neutrals".
Edit:
Actually another major thing wrong with the current TQ scanner is the "use overview settings". It doesnt actually work right. If you have a overview setting that filters out only hostile ships, when you open up the scanner and scan, why do you pick up friendly ships as well as hostiles? It's not really using the overview settings like that, just partly using them. |
Astar Null
Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:09:00 -
[20]
I haven't played around with the kali test code yet, so these are ignorant questions:
Tomb's comments: 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses
regarding comment 1; If you use the Kali version of an obvservator probe (unlimited range) then you can't use it with anything else? I use this as an extreme example but it gets my point across. If a player wants to set up a nextwork of several probes why can't he? What game balance is lost if somoene makes the effort to set up a (decaying) network of scan probes to blanket an area? Modern day anti-submarine warfare does exactly this. They deploy numerous sonar buoys in an attempt to locate their target. Players in EVE should be able to do the same.
Furthermore, do we have to select which probes are on each scan attempt? Why not reverse the situation. Instead, after finding a ship with a rough scan you keep deploying probes and ask the probe software and beacons to keep scanning for that ONE ship. All probes are queried with the request and it happens automatically.
This WOULD make scan probing brutally effective against a non-moving ship and even effective against moving ships.
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Irrilian
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2006.10.30 22:43:00 -
[21]
A suggestion for the replacement of the current live scanner mini system map which is rather hand for building a mental 3d model of the area you're searching. Would it be possible to integrate this function into the new system map, to have a 3d cone projecting from your ship indicating the area and direction of space you're currently scanning?
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Nymos
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cosmic Flame One thing wrong currently on TQ scanner which imho should be corrected (if not done so on Kali) is the Inability to remove neutral standings pilots from overview.
oh yes please, this is a very important feature that needs to be looked into. you need to triple check what you lock in empire wars and lose valuable time or risk to be concordokkened. if that can be implemented with the scanner overhaul that would be great.
as for being able to find a cloaked ship: why that? how would a probe be able to find a cloaked ship if my much more powerful scanners for close range (aka overview) is not able to spot it?
i agree that a cloaked ship is practically immune to detection which really sucks if it's you being scouted, but using probes this seems a bit overpowered. and if the scanning error is too large and puts you too far off the cloaked ship it's useless anyway. cov ops and force recons are by design ships that rely on their cloaking ability. for the rest that cannot fit covert ops cloaks the penalties are already high enough to discourage fitting one.
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Rath Etzam
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:58:00 -
[23]
One thing I'm wondering about is scanning of cans.
For 0.0 operations of single players or small corps (yes, I'm in one of those :)) they are kind of vital to the operation.
So with the new scanner, the cans can be scanned out and destroyed?
I just want to make sure before Kali hits TQ, so I can get my stuff out of those cans :)
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rath Etzam One thing I'm wondering about is scanning of cans.
For 0.0 operations of single players or small corps (yes, I'm in one of those :)) they are kind of vital to the operation.
So with the new scanner, the cans can be scanned out and destroyed?
I just want to make sure before Kali hits TQ, so I can get my stuff out of those cans :)
If I remember correctly there was a Containers option for one of the scan groups. But There is a bug atm so you can't choose any other groups than ships so there is no way of testing it.
As soon as I get a few hours undisturbed on SiSi you will get a large report on how this thing work in reality.
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TalanR
Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:56:00 -
[25]
If you are going to be able to scan cloaked ships they need to release a module that counters scanning or at least makes it more difficult
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Tanya Raskov
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:03:00 -
[26]
Ok. I like all this scaning and probes. What about countermeasure for this ? How do you defend against this ? There must be something like deployable anti-probe field, anti-probe containers etc. As for scaning cloaked ships, please exclude covert ops and recon ships. Those should be unscanable while cloaked. Remember that hiding is easier than finding.
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xenodia
Gallente RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.31 23:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Astar Null I haven't played around with the kali test code yet, so these are ignorant questions:
Tomb's comments: 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses
regarding comment 1; If you use the Kali version of an obvservator probe (unlimited range) then you can't use it with anything else? I use this as an extreme example but it gets my point across. If a player wants to set up a nextwork of several probes why can't he? What game balance is lost if somoene makes the effort to set up a (decaying) network of scan probes to blanket an area? Modern day anti-submarine warfare does exactly this. They deploy numerous sonar buoys in an attempt to locate their target. Players in EVE should be able to do the same.
Furthermore, do we have to select which probes are on each scan attempt? Why not reverse the situation. Instead, after finding a ship with a rough scan you keep deploying probes and ask the probe software and beacons to keep scanning for that ONE ship. All probes are queried with the request and it happens automatically.
This WOULD make scan probing brutally effective against a non-moving ship and even effective against moving ships.
Nobody said the scan area of probes can overlap. You just cant sit at one spot and launch multiple probes. For example, if you want to use a pair of 3AU probes, you cant put probe 2 closer than 3AU to probe 1, but you CAN put it close enough that there will be some area of overlap in between.
This signature space for rent |
Xcom
Gallente Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.01 05:25:00 -
[28]
The scanning system sounds very confusing. Can someone pleas help to clarify some of the stuff.
1. What is this scan strength? Is it the Radar, Ladar, Magnetometric, Gravimetric things? What does it mean that some have more Radar strength than the other stuff? What exactly does the stacking of these strengths mean? More chance of finding targets or better chance of getting closer to the target after the scan is complete?
2. What is inaccuracy? Is it the ômaximum scan deviationö?
3. How are you meant to use the Snoop probes? If you need 3 probes to start a scan and you only have 2 min to deploy the 3 probes and need to place them outside the scan area of each other (5AU). Makes the time limitation a bit too impossible? First jump around and place the probes within 150sec, then start the probing process that takes 120 sec??? Not even Chuck Norris would be able to do it.
4. Is the target your scanning for suppose to be inside the fall over of the 3 probes? Are you supposed to make BM in mid space then deploy the probes? Or is it possible to place the probes randomly in the system and 1 of the probes close to your target.
5. I donÆt understand how the scanning process is supposed to be dun. Are you supposed to start with the long range ones and then move closer? That doesnÆt work for the object scanners. The max deviation will make you end up to close to the target to place the more accurate 3 probes. Like starting with the Fathom then going over to the Snoop.
6. If the scanning strength relates to the possibility of finding the target how are you supposed to find your target when you donÆt get a result. How do you know that youÆre scanning the right area? You might end up scanning the wrong place 20 times. Or scan the right place to few times and not find anything and move on to soon.
But apart from all that, it would be nice to have a tutorial in the tutorial section that fully describes the probing system. Like the turret and missile tutorials.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.01 10:16:00 -
[29]
1: As far as I know this has not been tested enough yet for anyone to know. I've been trying to test it be haven't been able to get enough time on sisi to do the proper tests (will take several hours).
2: Correct but it seems broken atm on some probe types, you land much closer than you are supposed to. Note that this was true in the old system as well.
3-5: You don't "need" 3 probes to scan, 1 is enough. You can launch more to get better strength/more accurate result but snoops has such high strength and low divination that you probably only need 1.
6: You still have the standard ship scanner so if they are less than ca 15au away you know if you are in the right area or not. If you use observetor it covers the whole system so again you know it's correctly placed and you just need to scan again. The only probe where it might become a problem is the ferret probe with 40 au range.
But remember that if you use a recon launcher on a covert with level 4 skills it only takes around 45 sec to do a scan, 30 sec with max skills. It's only the sensor specific probes that need a standard probe launcher to use with it's higher scan time. But these have so much higher sensor strength (even their non specific strength on their weakest probe is stronger than the strongest non specific probe).
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:58:00 -
[30]
What about decoy bouys that you can drop that remain in said location for x ammount of time and appear as y ship type to scanner probes.
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