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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Andargor theWise
Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.11.03 02:34:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Christopher Dalran What about decoy bouys that you can drop that remain in said location for x ammount of time and appear as y ship type to scanner probes.
Yeah, there was some discussion a while back about EW modules being used to create "ghosts" on either the overview or the scanner.
This would be really fun to do. - Got grief?
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xttz
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:32:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Tanya Raskov Ok. I like all this scaning and probes. What about countermeasure for this ? How do you defend against this ? There must be something like deployable anti-probe field, anti-probe containers etc. As for scaning cloaked ships, please exclude covert ops and recon ships. Those should be unscanable while cloaked.
I think the ability to scan cloaked ships is more targeted at non-recon types using cloaks, such as ganking battleships (who do hit-and-run attacks from cloaked safespots), and especially cloaked carriers that can currently hide in deep safespots and assign fighters with no chance of being found or stopped. The Op said that "recon based ships are in general the hardest ships to find" as it should be. I imagine any recon pilot would have sufficient warning that they were being probed out by simply checking their own scanner for short-range probes. It does however prevent afk recon pilots from interfering in systems simply by their presence in local. In 0.0, routes with known recon gangs can scare away travelers by simply idling in a cloaked safespot and going afk.
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Dahin
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:04:00 -
[33]
Originally by: xenodia Edited by: xenodia on 02/11/2006 16:46:30
Originally by: Astar Null I haven't played around with the kali test code yet, so these are ignorant questions:
Tomb's comments: 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses
regarding comment 1; If you use the Kali version of an obvservator probe (unlimited range) then you can't use it with anything else? I use this as an extreme example but it gets my point across. If a player wants to set up a nextwork of several probes why can't he? What game balance is lost if somoene makes the effort to set up a (decaying) network of scan probes to blanket an area? Modern day anti-submarine warfare does exactly this. They deploy numerous sonar buoys in an attempt to locate their target. Players in EVE should be able to do the same.
Furthermore, do we have to select which probes are on each scan attempt? Why not reverse the situation. Instead, after finding a ship with a rough scan you keep deploying probes and ask the probe software and beacons to keep scanning for that ONE ship. All probes are queried with the request and it happens automatically.
This WOULD make scan probing brutally effective against a non-moving ship and even effective against moving ships.
Nobody said the scan area of probes cant overlap. You just cant sit at one spot and launch multiple probes. For example, if you want to use a pair of 3AU probes, you cant put probe 2 closer than 3AU to probe 1, but you CAN put it close enough that there will be some area of overlap in between.
If both the probes are within range of the target, then it is derived that at least part of the scanning spheres of the probes overap.
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The Enslaver
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:49:00 -
[34]
Are the deadspace signatures even in yet?
I've looked in a load of systems and not found anything, and from what I've heard they are supposed to be quite common... --------
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Dahin
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:54:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Dahin on 03/11/2006 22:58:30 Edited by: Dahin on 03/11/2006 22:55:09 Ok, the status of the probing is very messed up. I will only adress the combat aspect of probing, didn't bother with the rest yet.
For this example, I'm using the force recon probe launcher and the good ole set of probes. On my cheetah, no rigs, lvl1 analysis (that new skill that gives 10% scan time per level).
Probing time: 55seconds, this will most probably decrease to about 30 secs or less with rigs and higher lvls of the skill (70% bonus extra).
General changes: * Hugely icreased probing time for ships (downwards to 20-30 secs). * Extreme ease of use. There is no art in this. pop a probe, click, get result. * Depiction of results on the system map greatly helps visualisation of situation. * Various warp distances to results, although no gangwarp function. * You get to see what sihptype is the result down the geddon, hyperion... detail. * You can now destroy already deployed probes (yay!) * You CANNOT scan for cloaked ships yet, tried it * New probing interface extremily laggy, ghost results, failed scans for no reason, buttons going missing and yadda yadda yadda. * You can scann for all shiptypes simultaneously.
I moved to p4 of fd-mlj and started popping probes. Results:
snoop probes. Scan distance is now 5au compared to 3au. Compared to their usual stacking usage that gave tops 1au scanning range, that's a whopping 500% boost. So... scanning... Omg, results are ridiculous. Everything within 5au gives results with deviation of 0 meters. I can literally warp "in the face". Exceptions to these are shuttles and covops with the former giving ~500meters deviation and the latter about 60km. And that's with just lvl1 the skill that gives bonus to deviation results.
So I was amazed with the results, I switched to the 48au probes which now have a range of 20 or 48 au (description says 48, attributes 20). Nevertheless, even 20au are more than sufficient for all uses. If he's on the scanner the probe gets him. And now... the surprise! The results are ridiculously accurate. I get again 0 meters deviations for bs and and some 600km and 2.000km results for shuttles frigs and cruisers.
Wht does all this mean? If there's a hostile covops in the system, you have about 40 seconds to dissapear or you're pretty much toast. And I mean it. Also, there is no way you can hide in the system no more. You better have about 100 different safespots and hop from one to another every time you come out of warp or you will be killed.
In summary, the current stats on the probes cannot be described by the 'overpowered' term. It's simply too BBQ.
I believe this is not the original intention of the devs, and therefore it's a 'bug' or mistaken entries.
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.04 00:31:00 -
[36]
Am currently doing probe testing. So far, system seems to be holding up well.
It also seems remarkably well balanced. Contrary to Dahin's post above, which seems to be confused about how the new probes work.
Signal strength is new, and refers to the percentage chance of finding an object during a scan. 1+ signal strength will mean a result every time. Less than that can be translated into percentage:
0.75 = Ship will show up on after probe scan 75% of the time.
Signal strengths seems to depend on:
(Signature radius + Sensor Strength) of ship vs (Distance from target + Sensor Strength) of probe
i.e. a probe at max range will have a much harder time finding things then ships sitting right next to it.
A shuttle is much harder to find than a battleship, for example. Larger groups of ships are easier to find than small groups of ships, as there's more chance of one ship returning a "result" and therefore leading you to the others.
Scan probes do NOT seem to stack their sensor strength between gang members.
Will try stacking sensor strength of my own probes once back on server.
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Dahin
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.04 01:47:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Dahin on 04/11/2006 01:48:19 Edited by: Dahin on 04/11/2006 01:47:53 can you please pinpoint my mistakes so we can get the ball rolling?
Those 0km deviations are not imaginary. I'd warp to targets and land 0km off them (with the current nifty warp to 0 km ability on the testserver).
All I kept getting was 0km deviations with a few in-between deviations of a few km.
Edit: Hmmm, I will try to get targets further off my immediate range. Most of them were within a few au's.
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Misses Gap
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.04 14:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nymos
Originally by: Cosmic Flame One thing wrong currently on TQ scanner which imho should be corrected (if not done so on Kali) is the Inability to remove neutral standings pilots from overview.
oh yes please, this is a very important feature that needs to be looked into. you need to triple check what you lock in empire wars and lose valuable time or risk to be concordokkened. if that can be implemented with the scanner overhaul that would be great.
as for being able to find a cloaked ship: why that? how would a probe be able to find a cloaked ship if my much more powerful scanners for close range (aka overview) is not able to spot it?
i agree that a cloaked ship is practically immune to detection which really sucks if it's you being scouted, but using probes this seems a bit overpowered. and if the scanning error is too large and puts you too far off the cloaked ship it's useless anyway. cov ops and force recons are by design ships that rely on their cloaking ability. for the rest that cannot fit covert ops cloaks the penalties are already high enough to discourage fitting one.
I want to second (third) that ! With so many other non combatant ships around in say - an empire war it is sheer luck should you find the safespot of your enemy when using probes.
Granted - with the regular scanner and some guesswork you have a chance, but probes will just show all other 382 cruisers instead of the 5 enemy ones you are looking for.
This be addressed makes many many PvPer cry in happyness and worship the Devs.
Gap
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Inertia Foryu
Caldari Quantum Warfare Research and Development
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Posted - 2006.11.04 14:16:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Christopher Dalran What about decoy bouys that you can drop that remain in said location for x ammount of time and appear as y ship type to scanner probes.
Ha! That would be fun. We can call them "Cry Babies" in reference to Firefly :)
------ Sci-Fi Fan? Geek? The WarpZone Podcast |
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Oveur
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Posted - 2006.11.04 14:26:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Aertuun Am currently doing probe testing. So far, system seems to be holding up well.
It also seems remarkably well balanced. Contrary to Dahin's post above, which seems to be confused about how the new probes work.
Signal strength is new, and refers to the percentage chance of finding an object during a scan. 1+ signal strength will mean a result every time. Less than that can be translated into percentage:
0.75 = Ship will show up on after probe scan 75% of the time.
Signal strengths seems to depend on:
(Signature radius + Sensor Strength) of ship vs (Distance from target + Sensor Strength) of probe
i.e. a probe at max range will have a much harder time finding things then ships sitting right next to it.
A shuttle is much harder to find than a battleship, for example. Larger groups of ships are easier to find than small groups of ships, as there's more chance of one ship returning a "result" and therefore leading you to the others.
Scan probes do NOT seem to stack their sensor strength between gang members.
Will try stacking sensor strength of my own probes once back on server.
Kali code on Sisi was updated yesterday, a lot scanning stuff fixed in it.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Dark Legionary
Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.04 18:08:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Dark Legionary on 04/11/2006 18:18:48 nm
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Rigsta
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.11.04 23:59:00 -
[42]
Someone mentioned creating a scan probe network.
Deployable probes ala warp bubbles sound like an interesting idea. Maybe force someone to go and check them once in a while, not necessarily consuming resources but still needing some kind of maintenance.
Originally by: Jim McGregor I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.05 03:19:00 -
[43]
Done a few more scans today, and I noticed following (bad) behaviours:
*) Faction 3AU probes: still not functional *) If a scanned object has a signal strength above 1.0, the scan deviation is 0. This is making scanning far too powerful!!! *) Drones have a very high signal strength, they are easier to be found as most ships. Maybe this is because their sensorstrength is as low. *) It¦s not possible to find any container etc.
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Lily Savage
CryoTech
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Posted - 2006.11.05 08:23:00 -
[44]
Are the BPOs for scan probes going to be seeded?
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Sunaria
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Posted - 2006.11.05 09:32:00 -
[45]
well can we please discuss the exploration side of this thread now. I've read enough replies on how to find someones ship, quite frankly I don't really care about that aspect. The new exploration system however, there is little to no info on it except the fact you need astrometrics V to use the probes ... I sure hope that one isn't in the final build cause thats about 35 days of frigging skilling. Can we get some more info ?
- What skills do you need ? - What launcher do you need ? - What probes do you need ? - How do you use exploration ?
thnx in advance
greets
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Llyando Autora
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.05 10:02:00 -
[46]
Not sure if this is the right place for this but nm here goes...
I will start by saying that I am quite capable of using scan probes on TQ, I have the skills, Astrometrics 2, Science is at 5 so that is not an issue and basically any other skill needed on TQ, I have. On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. It will not let me select a group, I click on a group but unlike TQ it does not highlight my selection. I click the analyse button and nothing happens (although the notice saying that I must select one group is still present at the top of the scanner). I have tried all sorts of random combinations of the above, from lauching 3 seperate scan probes in 3 locations, selcting all of them and continuing, different sequences of selecting probes, and destroying my current probe and starting again. Nothing seems to help.
Anyone else had this problem or is it just me? (And if this isnt the place for this post could someone direct me to the correct spot?)
Thanks,
Llyando Autora
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:40:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lily Savage
Are the BPOs for scan probes going to be seeded?
There are BPOs on the market, it is unknown if they are going to be seeded.
Quote: If a scanned object has a signal strength above 1.0, the scan deviation is 0. This is making scanning far too powerful!!!
This isn't too powerful, no. Given that at point blank range (less than 100km from the probe) a frigate such as a Maulus or Incursus comes out at 0.97 or 0.6 signal strength, we're highly unlikely to see scan deviations of 0 in any sort of real situations.
This is with the probe sitting next to the ships. At any sort of distance, signal strength starts dropping.
Quote: The new exploration system however, there is little to no info on it ...
It's funny, I'm sure I saw quite a full explanation of it in the opening posts of this thread.
Quote: On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't.
Try scanning without selecting a probe group. It should default to ships.
AFAIK, that bug was fixed in a previous build however. Seems to work fine now.
Quote: *) Drones have a very high signal strength, they are easier to be found as most ships. Maybe this is because their sensorstrength is as low.
The signal strength of drones may need some tweaking. It is also impossible at the moment to probe out freighters, as they have no signal strength stat.
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Sunaria
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:44:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Aertuun It's funny, I'm sure I saw quite a full explanation of it in the opening posts of this thread.
nothing usefull I'm afraid
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 12:32:00 -
[49]
Managed to reverse engineer the formula for signal strength with a few hours of tests last night. System seems very solid, and allows for ship fittings that dramatically reduce your chances of being found with probes.
Haven't checked the effects of cloaks on signal strength yet.
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 14:04:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Aertuun on 05/11/2006 14:04:52 Spent a few hours last night working out how signal strength was calculated, with help from the beautiful assistants wapacz and Gli Liphon.
Signal strength is the percentage chance a ship within your probe's range will be found. It also is used in determining result inaccuracy.
Signal strength = (Signature radius of ship * Probe sensor strength * Ship Distance from probe (as a % of probe range)) divided by (Ship Sensor Strength * 100)
So for a Raven being found with a Snoop probe at negligible range from the probe:
Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18
Currently unsure about:
How the probe's range is converted into a percentage. At 9.77 AU range on a 10 AU probe, signal strength is reduced by 0.1895 (18.9%). It's possible there's a rock bottom of 15-16% signal strength exists for absolute max range.
Also unsure how it scales between the two values (from zero range to max range). May do some tests today on that.
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El Verbatim
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Posted - 2006.11.05 15:38:00 -
[51]
Edited by: El Verbatim on 05/11/2006 15:46:38
Originally by: Llyando Autora Not sure if this is the right place for this but nm here goes...
I will start by saying that I am quite capable of using scan probes on TQ, I have the skills, Astrometrics 2, Science is at 5 so that is not an issue and basically any other skill needed on TQ, I have. On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. It will not let me select a group, I click on a group but unlike TQ it does not highlight my selection. I click the analyse button and nothing happens (although the notice saying that I must select one group is still present at the top of the scanner). I have tried all sorts of random combinations of the above, from lauching 3 seperate scan probes in 3 locations, selcting all of them and continuing, different sequences of selecting probes, and destroying my current probe and starting again. Nothing seems to help.
Anyone else had this problem or is it just me? (And if this isnt the place for this post could someone direct me to the correct spot?)
Thanks,
Llyando Autora
exactly the same here... can't select any group, selection is just not accepted and Scanning doesn't do a thing.
EDIT: mmm, although it didn't work for 30 mins, now suddenly it works.... opened, closed, reopened the scanner window a few times and having some patience.
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doc627
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Posted - 2006.11.05 17:01:00 -
[52]
This is one of the best things to happen to Eve. With my corp being the victims of the cloaked afk carrier on many occasions I am happy to see people can not hide forever in a system you own. I am also a recon pilot and only have a small problem with cloaked ships being "probe-able" but still if you get caught with the new probing system in any case. Then maybe you should reconsider your career as a recon pilot.
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Salmack
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:20:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Salmack on 05/11/2006 18:20:07
Originally by: xttz
I think the ability to scan cloaked ships is more targeted at non-recon types using cloaks, such as ganking battleships (who do hit-and-run attacks from cloaked safespots), and especially cloaked carriers that can currently hide in deep safespots and assign fighters with no chance of being found or stopped.
Carriers can not cloak and have fighters out. |
PCX339
Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.05 18:38:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Aertuun Edited by: Aertuun on 05/11/2006 14:04:52 Spent a few hours last night working out how signal strength was calculated, with help from the beautiful assistants wapacz and Gli Liphon.
Signal strength is the percentage chance a ship within your probe's range will be found. It also is used in determining result inaccuracy.
Signal strength = (Signature radius of ship * Probe sensor strength * Ship Distance from probe (as a % of probe range)) divided by (Ship Sensor Strength * 100)
So for a Raven being found with a Snoop probe at negligible range from the probe:
Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18
Thank you for the excellent info. I wonder, has anyone tried ECCM with this yet? My account isn't active on SiSi (no, I've never let it lapse), so I can't test it myself.
If ECCM/Sensor backup arrays make it harder for people to probe you out, that might be a neat little additional factor to consider for covert work.
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Makhan
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Posted - 2006.11.05 19:24:00 -
[55]
It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway?
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: PCX339 Thank you for the excellent info. I wonder, has anyone tried ECCM with this yet? My account isn't active on SiSi (no, I've never let it lapse), so I can't test it myself.
If ECCM/Sensor backup arrays make it harder for people to probe you out, that might be a neat little additional factor to consider for covert work.
ECCM modules were used during the tests:
Doubling your ECCM makes you twice as hard to probe. One of the best named ECCM module or a tech II module is enough to do that.
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:44:00 -
[57]
Did some work on distances. Looked at the signal strength at 0 range, then went gradually further away, testing with several different probe types.
For an object at the maximum range of a probe (10AU for a 10AU probe), lowest possible signal strength return is 35%. Any object closer than 35% of the probe's range (say 3.5AU for a 10AU probe), will give a signal strength return of 90+%.
Have put a graph together plotting all the data points. Will try to work out what equation it follows over the next few days.
The line is not linear, but does seem to follow an equation.
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PCX339
Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.05 21:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aertuun
The line is not linear, but does seem to follow an equation.
Maybe it won't help, maybe it will: the EVE coders seem to really like the inverse hyperbolic sine (ASINH() in Excel). I can see why they like it: it gives a nice sigmoidal response that allows for a real difference between the top and bottom end, it's well behaved, and it's easy to code.
Just in case it helps :)
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The Enslaver
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway?
I also need to know this.
I have scanned 15 or so systems and nothing, and I was under the belief that it was planned for *multiple* per system; with the best being ultrarare...
Either the system is ******, it hasn't been put in yet, or it is another dissapointing letdown on the side of CCP -------- It's great being Amarr, aint it?
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Dahin
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.05 23:59:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Llyando Autora Not sure if this is the right place for this but nm here goes...
I will start by saying that I am quite capable of using scan probes on TQ, I have the skills, Astrometrics 2, Science is at 5 so that is not an issue and basically any other skill needed on TQ, I have. On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. It will not let me select a group, I click on a group but unlike TQ it does not highlight my selection. I click the analyse button and nothing happens (although the notice saying that I must select one group is still present at the top of the scanner). I have tried all sorts of random combinations of the above, from lauching 3 seperate scan probes in 3 locations, selcting all of them and continuing, different sequences of selecting probes, and destroying my current probe and starting again. Nothing seems to help.
Anyone else had this problem or is it just me? (And if this isnt the place for this post could someone direct me to the correct spot?)
Thanks,
Llyando Autora
Relog, I had the same thing and relogging fixed it. You should get a solding selection from the type menu.
Now if I could only manage to get on the testserver to test more. I like eve and all, but I won't wait 2hrs in a line to test someones work for free
What I am most considered about the new stats is the effect they will have in the game. It may sound cool and everything, but I'm afraid that if they are as powerfull and easy to use as I think they are, your buddylist icons will start flashing everytime someone organizes a slight blob.
Getting caught in less than a minute tends to make people nervous and that ctrl+q combination too easy to hit. If this was accompanied with a ship permanence in hostile space, it'd be a statement.
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