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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Olivin
Gallente Aquarium
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Posted - 2006.11.12 23:30:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Amira Silvermist
Originally by: Olivin
1. Current scanning system is fine. It does requires little bit of brain usage, but that's a beauty of this. If you try hard you can find stuff.
2. New system is moron proof. You will need some SP, probe launcher and ability to click "Find stuff" button. Is that what you call a "great and useful"?
So you think that dropping 3 probes in a triangle is "brain usage"? Yea, right...
You can still use the directional scanner for finding people faster because its useless to scan for people with a weak probe and land 500 km away from them.
It's not about "dropping 3 probes in a triangle" and you obviosly don't know much about it. And actually you don't need to drop probes in in a triangle.
Olivin
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WTB: Any character with high standings torwards pirate factions |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 23:40:00 -
[122]
Is this a step down in complexity? Yes but you have to look at it from how it fits in with the rest of the game.
People are whining about how much hp change or t2 ammo change etc are going to change the game but missing the fact that the largest change to how warfare is down in eve is actually this probing change.
No longer are you going to have 2 fleets sitting different safe spots boring each other out. Sit at the same SS for 10 min and even if it is a deep safe the enemy will have found you for sure. It's going to make sure that more combat actually happens and to me that change alone is worth the loss in complexity.
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Schani Kratnorr
Federal Volunteers Office
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Posted - 2006.11.13 10:32:00 -
[123]
Old probing is an archane and mystical art, only a few master. Before probes, there was triangulation and careful use of midwarps to locate, and corner a target. With probes finding someone became easier, yet still cumbersome and somewhat buggy.
The probes in KALI1 (Revelations) are much "cleaner" in design. We can discuss all we want, but I think most would agree that a change was needed.
Finding someone is now up to combination of Skills, skill and luck since scanning also has an element of chance. Much like many other aspects of the game has changed since we started, finding someone, is now a specialist job. Any fleet commander without "scouts" will inevitably be forced into a defensive stance.
In my eye, the mechanics of probes in Revelations, is near perfect. They are not a "win-button", but used right they can win the battle for you. They are less buggy. And with only a few minor adjustments they could be perfect.
1. A somewhat clearer way of correlating scanresults with the directional scanner (we want the "green cone" back please).
2. When closing the scanner (f11) and opening it again, the scan countdown should re-appear.
3. A clearer visual representation of the probe scan radius (the current "bubble" is very diffuse, and hard to spot on some systems).
4. T1 Scan probe BPOs seeded on the market please. -- Support democracy! - Because it has to work |
Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.13 10:56:00 -
[124]
Any fleet commander without scouts should be shot ;)
And yeah, the impression I get is that we're losing the voodoo (which I'll miss), we're losing the difficulty in individual scans, but that's to some degree being compensated by the fact that you'll now be doing a lot more scanning and it will likely become even more time-sensitive than it is currently. I'm not entirely happy with the changes, but I'm not going to complain about them, because I think they're "OK". I'd like to keep some of the voodoo, but I can live comfortably with probes being more useful and more used even if they're less interesting than they were before.
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.13 13:38:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 13/11/2006 13:38:11
Originally by: Olivin
It's not about "dropping 3 probes in a triangle" and you obviosly don't know much about it. And actually you don't need to drop probes in in a triangle.
Olivin
Yea, just because you have no clue and think that putting two probes at the same spot and a third one a few AUs away doesn't make it a triangle... Math ftw my friend
But hey lets stop the bickering... You obviously posses a lot of l33tess so maybe you could step down and show off your skillz before people like me. Tell me the secret knowledge and feel good doing so... Its your last chance before everything will went into the gutter in a couple of weeks.
Honestly, keep your act together.
The new system might not need the "voodoo" and secret tricks you guys talk about but Schani Kratnorr summed it up quite nicely
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DeMundus
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2006.11.13 22:22:00 -
[126]
Edited by: DeMundus on 13/11/2006 22:22:56 Argh scan for cloaked ships
Pox on CCP... Now my "busniess" just got harder.
Reason? Abandon all hope But take care of teh cake!11 - Immy |
Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.13 23:46:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 13/11/2006 23:47:45
Originally by: DeMundus Edited by: DeMundus on 13/11/2006 22:22:56 Argh scan for cloaked ships
Pox on CCP... Now my "busniess" just got harder.
Reason?
Well, I guess its because with a cloak you were 100% safe no matter what. Its still quite difficult to find Co-Ops or Recons from what I have heard but its at least possible now.
BTW: What was your "business"?
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Bellus Solteuer
Caldari Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.14 14:29:00 -
[128]
Has anyone located a cosmic signature in space yet? Are these even in? People have tried to direct the thread that way a couple time to no avail...Also, does anyone have any clue what the formula might be for locating these hidden complexes? Are they racially based signatures conforming to the appropriate kind of sensor technology? Any clues?
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Sunaria
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Posted - 2006.11.14 15:37:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Bellus Solteuer Has anyone located a cosmic signature in space yet? Are these even in? People have tried to direct the thread that way a couple time to no avail...Also, does anyone have any clue what the formula might be for locating these hidden complexes? Are they racially based signatures conforming to the appropriate kind of sensor technology? Any clues?
/signed
is there anyone remotly interested in this and has tried testing it for us poor guys with no astrometrics 5
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.14 16:31:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Bellus Solteuer Has anyone located a cosmic signature in space yet? Are these even in? People have tried to direct the thread that way a couple time to no avail...Also, does anyone have any clue what the formula might be for locating these hidden complexes? Are they racially based signatures conforming to the appropriate kind of sensor technology? Any clues?
Like written a bit above: Deadspace signatures are in, but itŠs quite difficult to find them (specially with the bugged sift probes). There is a special type of signatures (donŠt know the exact naming, but it has the word "cosmic" in it), which are for finding COSMOS-agent sites. These signatures are pretty easy to be found. You can also try to find this one with the recon launcher.
If the signatures are racially based is quite probable, but I havnŠt tested it till now.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.14 17:43:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius And yes, the exploration sites are in and work fine, I've found a couple of plexes, an archaeological site, a couple of drone sites and a gas cloud so far. You just gotta figure out where to look and then have some patience...
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Helison BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didnŠt use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasnŠt able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans.
Are you sure you've been picking up variances in Ftarget and not Plock? I've been getting signal strengths all over the spectrum but, one set of inconclusive data aside, they all point to an identical Ftarget so far (around 0.11, IIRC).
Originally by: Joerd Toastius Yeah, the N is a defunct thing from the treasure hunt thing. The thing you're looking for is, as surmised, the Deadspace Signature. The sig strength for a cosmic signature, even at point blank (50k or so) range with sifts is generally 0.3 at best, so you just need to grind it currently :(
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.14 18:23:00 -
[132]
A few new comments. The signature radius/sensor strength works fine mostly but do give some rather strange results. For example it's much easier to find a carrier (15) than it is to find a mothership (8.5). This is due to the extreme sensor strength motherships have. There is also a huge spread in the t1 frigate department with 2.94 for the hardest (griffin) and 10.75 for the easiest (burst).
Seems to be one more new skill that I either missed the first time or it has been added later. Since it's not seeded I assume the later.
Astrometric Pinpointing Greater accuracy in hunting down targets found through scanning. Reduces maximum scan deviation by 10% per level. Rank 5, requiers astrometrics 4.
A few stats have changed since the screenshots on page 1. Max Scan Deviation and Max Flight time for all non sensor specific probes have been doubled.
Scan Range of all sensor specific probes have been cut to 1/3 and max scan deviation to 1/4.
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.14 22:23:00 -
[133]
I wonder if the new skill will only cut max derivation as written or derivation in general...
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.14 23:14:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Amira Silvermist Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 14/11/2006 22:45:14
Edit: by the way, are the sift probes considered bugged because they need a Covert Ops to be used or was that intentional?
Not actually true. All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. If you get this to level 5 and signal acquisition to 4 your cycle time comes down to 270s, which is just enough time to do a sift scan (15s cooldown leaves you five seconds to start the analysis)
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 01:04:00 -
[135]
Originally by: DeMundus Edited by: DeMundus on 13/11/2006 22:22:56 Argh scan for cloaked ships
Pox on CCP... Now my "busniess" just got harder.
Reason?
Atm on SiSi you can NOT find cloaked ships with probes. If this is a bug or intended I don't know (I am to say the least a bit reluctant to bug report it as I fly a falcon or cheeta most every day :) ).
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Langhorn
Gallente BMF Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:13:00 -
[136]
Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level.
Amarr have the Anathema which gives the bonus to astrometrics modules, and its 10% not 5%.
With the Scan probe launcher having activation tiime of 600s
and
Covert Ops 3, and Signal Acquisition 3 - reduces the activation time to 294s which would leave 6 seconds to activate a scan.
Even with Signal Acq at 5 (bringing activation time down to 300s) means you will need at least covert ops 1 (and ship) to be able to use sift probes.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:21:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 15/11/2006 12:23:39
Originally by: Langhorn
Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level.
Amarr have the Anathema which gives the bonus to astrometrics modules, and its 10% not 5%.
Quote: The Imicus is a slow but hard-shelled frigate, ideal for any type of scouting activity. Used by merchant, miner and combat groups, the Imicus is usually relied upon as the operation's eyes and ears when traversing low security sectors.
Special Ability: 5% bonus to drone range per skill level. 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level
Quote: The Heron has good computer and electronic systems, giving it the option of participating in electronic warfare. But it has relatively poor defenses and limited weaponry, so it's more commonly used for scouting and exploration.
Special Ability: 5% bonus kinetic missile damage per skill level 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level
Quote: The Probe is large compared to most Minmatar frigates and is considered a good scout and cargo-runner. Uncharacteristically for a Minmatar ship, its hard outer coating makes it difficult to destroy, while the limited weapon hardpoints force it to rely on fighter assistance if engaged in combat.
Special Ability: 5% bonus cargo capacity per skill level. 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level
Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometric modules by 5%/level
Further, 294s activation time leaves you 11 seconds short because you cannot begin analysing your scan until the scan probe launcher finishes its activation cycle, which takes fifteen seconds. The probe starts counting down as soon as it's launched at the beginning of the cycle. If you try using a sift with a 294s activation time your probe will expire at least eleven seconds before your scan finishes.
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Langhorn
Gallente BMF Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:33:00 -
[138]
hadn't realised was talking about normal frigates (since he had quoted a comment about covert ops). But can see now where the 270s comes from (Frigate 5 + Signal Acq. 4).
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:41:00 -
[139]
Well, this whole discussion about "on which ship is it possible to use a sift probe?" is pointless. If you have the skill for using faction probes, which requires Astrometric 5, you should be possible to use the sift probe on any ship. Everything else would be a bug or a very bad design as the sift probe is the standard probe of all faction probes. If it is necessary to train skills to be able to use more faction probes, the sift probe should be the first probe, as it works on the shortest distance (and will be required for most scans). It has the highest scanning strength, but this is necessary to be able to pinpoint any exploration content.
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Langhorn
Gallente BMF Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:52:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Helison Well, this whole discussion about "on which ship is it possible to use a sift probe?" is pointless. If you have the skill for using faction probes, which requires Astrometric 5, you should be possible to use the sift probe on any ship. Everything else would be a bug or a very bad design as the sift probe is the standard probe of all faction probes. If it is necessary to train skills to be able to use more faction probes, the sift probe should be the first probe, as it works on the shortest distance (and will be required for most scans). It has the highest scanning strength, but this is necessary to be able to pinpoint any exploration content.
I look at the sift probe as being the hardest 1 to use so should require more skills.
Use the weakest probe first to get a general location of an object, then as you get closer to it, then you need to use more accurate probes to fine tune an objects location.
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.15 13:04:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Langhorn
I look at the sift probe as being the hardest 1 to use so should require more skills.
Use the weakest probe first to get a general location of an object, then as you get closer to it, then you need to use more accurate probes to fine tune an objects location.
This "need" is the problem: You really need sift probes to be able to get to an object, which is still difficult enough (used 10 sift probes on a signature without any result, but perhaps of the wrong faction).
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.15 14:30:00 -
[142]
Helison is right in that it's just not feasible to do exploration without sifts, because (last time I checked) nothing else will get you close enough. The changes to maximum deviation may change that, I don't know, but certainly last time I checked there was no point trying without sifts. As it stands you need frigate V (not Amarr) or Covops 3 or so to use them at all. Reducing cycle time on scan probe launchers is not really an option as it makes it overpowered at higher levels, so the only change you could make usefully is to increase the flight time of sifts. However, I'm not 100% convinced that this is necessary - yes, you need sifts to do exploration, but you don't need them for more mundane tasks such as hunting down parked/safed ships. "Faction" probes have uses besides exploration, so it's not a de facto problem that some of them are usable at skill levels where sifts aren't.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:07:00 -
[143]
Well you don't really need sift if it's ship hunting you are doing, even the 64 au version is strong enough to give above 1.0 signal strength in most cases. At worst you might need the 16 aus. So increasing the flight time of sift won't overpower them for ship hunting in any way.
Personally I see little reason why you should be forced to use covert ops for exploration, when I first read about it I imagined someone in a BS with an offline probe launcher in a spare high. Onlineing and using it to explore when needed.
Now it more looks like you need a covert ops plus an alt in a hauler to carry the probes...
I have yet to find a signature to scan for (haven't had time to look) but when I used sifts to look for ships they worked just fine. Also have your tried using 2-3 comb probes instead? That might get you close enough without sift.
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:54:00 -
[144]
Has anyone found out yet whether deadspace signatures have race-specific signal strength? And if so does it correspond to the type of NPCs found in that deadspace? (radar for Sansha, for example) ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance |
Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:57:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Not actually true. All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. If you get this to level 5 and signal acquisition to 4 your cycle time comes down to 270s, which is just enough time to do a sift scan (15s cooldown leaves you five seconds to start the analysis)
Ah true, sorry for that. I didnt notice that the Amarr got left out in that field again. I wrote a bug report about it. (about the "you need a special ship" not about "amarr got the short end of the funstick again" even if its true)
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:17:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Hoshi Personally I see little reason why you should be forced to use covert ops for exploration, when I first read about it I imagined someone in a BS with an offline probe launcher in a spare high. Onlineing and using it to explore when needed.
This is doubly the case in 0.0 - the plexes I've been finding haven't been tankable in the Zealot I have in the area, let alone a covops ship. It's going to be a "back to base to change ships" job at the very least...
Originally by: Hoshi Also have your tried using 2-3 comb probes instead? That might get you close enough without sift.
No, not yet. I'll try and get a chance to check this at the weekend...
Originally by: Dutarro Has anyone found out yet whether deadspace signatures have race-specific signal strength? And if so does it correspond to the type of NPCs found in that deadspace? (radar for Sansha, for example)
Have found no difference between drones and Guristas so far, but my data are inconclusive
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Harry Bucannon
The Bratwurst Burglars
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Posted - 2006.11.15 21:55:00 -
[147]
Just been testing the exploration side of this, I have located a "deadspace signature" using the magna probes (comb). This is just to confirm to people that there is content out there ready to be discovered! (i had my doubts till a posative reading). Dont know what it is yet, cause i dont have the ability to use sift probes without them running out yet!.
Can be seen on the scanner too as deadspace signature, i think they must only spawn via exploration - cause im dead sure it wasn't there before!!.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 23:21:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Hoshi on 15/11/2006 23:28:18 Scan Deviation.
Max Scan deviation for a scan is determined by Max Scan Deviation of the probe used, the signal strength and a random number.
I don't have enough datapoints to get a good formula yet (it takes a lot of time to gather) but what I have suggest the following: Accuracy = rand * (0.6X^2 - 1.6X + 1)* Max Scan Deviation Where X = Signal Strength and rand give a linear random number between 0 and 1. I am 100% sure on the linear random part, just not 100% on the max effective deviation to signal strength part.
I have also found a formula that fits slightly better for the signal strength to range formula. I was never really happy with the old. While it was good enough for most purposes it did error, specially in the close range data.
The new formula would be: A/(1+B*e^(C*X)) Where A = 1.1, B = 0.075, C = 3.3 and X is range/max range Not so clean as the old one, can probably use a bit of fine tuning but e^X makes sense as CCP has used that before in the missile damage formula.
If anyone wants to test and fine tune these numbers I would be very happy. What you are seeing here is over 5 hours of sampling and calculation. I am in a need of a rest :)
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Arilanus Doshenko
Gallente Ascendant Strategies Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.15 23:23:00 -
[149]
Scan probes launchers may need a COVOPS ship to get the time down, but Recon Probe Launchers don't. Base cycle time of 120 seconds. [insert awesome Photoshop character banner here] |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.16 00:25:00 -
[150]
Maybe I was a bit too quick with the new signal strength to range formula, seems that when you adjust it to fit the start and end it looks exactly like the old. Oh well, the scan deviation still seems good at least :)
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