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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
268
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Posted - 2015.04.14 00:50:29 -
[31] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote: why didn't you use specific resists? code. almost exclusively use talos/catalyst.
I may, or may not be under contract from unidentified parties, involving obscure goals.
Use those spaceship vessel fits, they're rationally good.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Mag's
the united
19284
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Posted - 2015.04.14 02:54:55 -
[32] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Did you not learn your lesson from the last freighter "buff"?
Apparently some people like being repeatedly beaten with a rubber hose. No sense, no feeling. Plus, common sense isn't all that common.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
199
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Posted - 2015.04.14 02:59:15 -
[33] - Quote
Ya, know what......
At first CCP was going to give Freighters rig slots.....which would have been much better.
But waaay too many people complained, raised their voices and grabbed for their pitch forks......
So well....you got what you asked for....deal with it. |
Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
504
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Posted - 2015.04.14 06:24:55 -
[34] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Elenahina wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Did you not learn your lesson from the last freighter "buff"?
Apparently some people like being repeatedly beaten with a rubber hose. No sense, no feeling. Plus, common sense isn't all that common. who says sense has anything to do with it? Ideas like this are posted to flesh out arguments each side makes to foster a discussion on current and potential future balance. I at no point said I believe this is a good idea, I just want to know who thinks it is and isn't and why.
I think it's interesting how balance issues like this form around ships that have an entirely different set roles and rules. Saying that a CPU increase should be included in the balance along with possibly moving around/removing some hp to balance it is my way of fostering a discussion about how freighter balance is unusual since they don't follow anything close to the balance meta of other ships in this game, and for what? To favor gankers? To limit a pilot's ability to project power through resource movement?
It doesn't make much sense that freighters are singled out in this regard; even indies get a decent array of fitting options. What's the point of limiting a non-combat hauler so dramatically, other than tradition? |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1326
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Posted - 2015.04.14 06:45:03 -
[35] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:It doesn't make much sense that freighters are singled out in this regard; even indies get a decent array of fitting options. What's the point of limiting a non-combat hauler so dramatically, other than tradition? The reason:
Rivr Luzade wrote:If they are allowed to fit DCUs, they will lose so much raw HP that it becomes mandatory to fit a DCU or always web you into warp through all the gates all the time unless you want to risk 3 Catas gank you the old way (no hyperdunk).
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15602
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Posted - 2015.04.14 07:50:12 -
[36] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:What's the point of limiting a non-combat hauler so dramatically, other than tradition?
Because allowing it to fit things like a dcu would mean its base stats would need to be nerfed which would mean an overall nerf to the ship just like what happened when CCP gave them fitting slots.
We wind up with a worse ship, again.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
395
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Posted - 2015.04.14 07:54:53 -
[37] - Quote
"allowing x will require y nerf"...
What modules give you the same stats as the pre-nerf freighters? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1043
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Posted - 2015.04.14 08:27:24 -
[38] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Every bucket carrying 1 ISK more than 2.5bn of goods, or any doublePlasticWrapped cargo is spacedust nowadays - that bar is set rather low.
Only if the pilot is lazy or an idiot
but maybe to many people are hitting their heads on this low bar of yours
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Anthar Thebess
1005
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Posted - 2015.04.14 09:04:05 -
[39] - Quote
Inability to fit damage controls was the goal
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
504
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Posted - 2015.04.14 19:29:13 -
[40] - Quote
But why would they have to be nerfed? What's so bad about having having freighters with so much extra ehp? I'm alright with it either way, but I'm curious about the reasoning behind not giving them a straight buff to tank. |
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
508
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Posted - 2015.04.14 20:27:29 -
[41] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Elenahina wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Did you not learn your lesson from the last freighter "buff"?
Apparently some people like being repeatedly beaten with a rubber hose. No sense, no feeling. Plus, common sense isn't all that common. Per D-piddy, it's a super power, which occasionally tingles.
Catherine Laartii wrote:
But why would they have to be nerfed? What's so bad about having having freighters with so much extra ehp? I'm alright with it either way, but I'm curious about the reasoning behind not giving them a straight buff to tank.
Because tone says risk vs. reward is a central theme. Because lore says freighters are made of paper relative to combat ships. Because game balance says this is a bad change without some other trade off.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1327
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Posted - 2015.04.14 20:39:51 -
[42] - Quote
It would make destroying them a lot harder, a lot less rewarding and require a lot more effort, in particular in High sec where most of them are situated and no caps are allowed to shoot. Read the threadnought on the last year's freighter changes for more information.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
504
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Posted - 2015.04.15 07:13:24 -
[43] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Mag's wrote:Elenahina wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Did you not learn your lesson from the last freighter "buff"?
Apparently some people like being repeatedly beaten with a rubber hose. No sense, no feeling. Plus, common sense isn't all that common. Per D-piddy, it's a super power, which occasionally tingles. Catherine Laartii wrote:
But why would they have to be nerfed? What's so bad about having having freighters with so much extra ehp? I'm alright with it either way, but I'm curious about the reasoning behind not giving them a straight buff to tank.
Because tone says risk vs. reward is a central theme. Because lore says freighters are made of paper relative to combat ships. Because game balance says this is a bad change without some other trade off. So are you saying that giving them extra hp would ACTUALLY stop/slow down the gankers? Because every other indication in the thread seems to suggest it wouldn't change anything. By that logic, what's the harm? |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1329
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Posted - 2015.04.15 07:20:23 -
[44] - Quote
The harm is that CCP cannot allow freighters to be safer from ganks. It fuels the market if freighters die and it provides PVP to the inept masses.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
504
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Posted - 2015.04.15 07:26:45 -
[45] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:The harm is that CCP cannot allow freighters to be safer from ganks. It fuels the market if freighters die and it provides PVP to the inept masses. well that's kind of my point I'm making; it's moot whether or not they get their defenses buffed because the gankers will just increase their firepower. They have no reason not to, nor any more plentiful, more valuable, or less dangerous ships to shoot at than freighters. So they'll just try harder and it will remain the same. This is not a bad thing at all, since all it would do is just force slightly more cooperation. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1329
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Posted - 2015.04.15 09:33:12 -
[46] - Quote
No, that is not the point. The point is that higher HP for freighters means less reward and more effort for gankers, which turns occasional gankers away and reduces overall damage done to freighters. PVPers do not want to try harder and CCP has the stance on the matter that PVP should be easy to come by. Making freighters harder to gank counteracts that notion.
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Siginek
BAND of MAGNUS
12
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Posted - 2015.04.15 10:34:58 -
[47] - Quote
more than CPU buff to fit DCU i would more like to see freighters with tank moved to shield/armor so they can be aid by logis and actual support fleets can be made, because righ now you cant effectively help someone whose only tank is structure with 0 resists ... not saying that they should get some kind of extra HP, just move HP they have now in structure into real tank |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
573
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Posted - 2015.04.15 12:52:08 -
[48] - Quote
Siginek wrote:more than CPU buff to fit DCU i would more like to see freighters with tank moved to shield/armor so they can be aid by logis and actual support fleets can be made, because righ now you cant effectively help someone whose only tank is structure with 0 resists ... not saying that they should get some kind of extra HP, just move HP they have now in structure into real tank Providence with Slaves and Nano Plating has 92,500 EHP with resists at 67/72 Kin/Therm. Throw in links and you get 102,000 EHP with resists at 71/75 Kin/Therm.
The problem AG has is they are trying to save stupid pilots. My advice to them: If the pilot isn't at their keyboard and ready to swap into Nano Plating, don't bother trying to save him.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1690
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Posted - 2015.04.15 13:09:20 -
[49] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Siginek wrote:more than CPU buff to fit DCU i would more like to see freighters with tank moved to shield/armor so they can be aid by logis and actual support fleets can be made, because righ now you cant effectively help someone whose only tank is structure with 0 resists ... not saying that they should get some kind of extra HP, just move HP they have now in structure into real tank Providence with Slaves and Nano Plating has 92,500 armor HP with resists at 67/72 Kin/Therm. Throw in links and you get 102,000 armor HP with resists at 71/75 Kin/Therm.
Now try it with a charon... |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
574
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Posted - 2015.04.15 14:41:29 -
[50] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Siginek wrote:more than CPU buff to fit DCU i would more like to see freighters with tank moved to shield/armor so they can be aid by logis and actual support fleets can be made, because righ now you cant effectively help someone whose only tank is structure with 0 resists ... not saying that they should get some kind of extra HP, just move HP they have now in structure into real tank Providence with Slaves and Nano Plating has 92,500 armor HP with resists at 67/72 Kin/Therm. Throw in links and you get 102,000 armor HP with resists at 71/75 Kin/Therm. Now try it with a charon... The Charon has a different role as the cargo king. If you are using a web sling it's the best ship to use as it minimizes the amount of trips you have to make.
The Fenrir could use a new role though. Speed/alignment advantages aren't so useful when you're still a slow and bulky freighter.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
696
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Posted - 2015.04.15 14:59:38 -
[51] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Rowells wrote:the low fitting was intentionally to only allow access to very few modules And you'd say this is intentionally done to disallow fitting of damage controls? Sigh. JFs can already get over 1 million ehp
Any more buffs and ganking them becomes impossible.
Same for freighters. They should instead be nerfed because as it is with isboxer bans only 2-3 groups of people can put together a fleet capable of ganking medium tanked ones.
To gank a 1 mil ehp ark you probably can't get a gank squad together at all. Go away carebear, highsec is safe enough.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1334
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Posted - 2015.04.15 15:19:09 -
[52] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:They should instead be nerfed because as it is with isboxer bans only 2-3 groups of people can put together a fleet capable of ganking medium tanked ones.
To gank a 1 mil ehp ark you probably can't get a gank squad together at all. Go away carebear, highsec is safe enough. Neither nerf nor buff is necessary. CODE, CFC, PIZZA, BL, BRAVE, Gorgon are already 6 groups who can gank freighters the old fashioned way with ease and who do it regularly. With Hyperdunking, you need 3 people to gank a freighter: 1 Bumper, 1 Bowhead/Orca pilot and 1 Ganker. Done. And no amount of HP matters for that type of ganking. Guess, how many players can gather 3 people to do just that. Interestingly enough, however, hyperdunking seems to have decreased drastically. By the looks, it currently happens just as often as you see an Ark with HG Slaves, A-Type ANPs and links flying around 20B in value.
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
179
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Posted - 2015.04.15 15:41:36 -
[53] - Quote
As a maxed freighter/JF pilot, even I have to say this is a bad idea. All that would happen is a DC would become mandatory on all fits, since one module outstrips any combination of the other 3 slots. The EHP is all that keeps the ship alive, by DETERRING the gankers.
I don't like ganking, but I still support it: it brings in subscriptions/plex purchases by offering fast access to being a bad person en mass, without joining lowsec and null groups that require much time and dedication. It also helps keep the market moving; every lost item provides opportunity to someone else, and supports pick-up games for people short on time and low on internet spaceship morals.
Eve needs them.
I much prefer the current freighter system, it is a good balance of options and while the nerf does hurt the prepared, it further separates the fools and their isk. Freighters have been fixed, they do not need another pass.
You are content to be content. This is not a jedi mind trick, its just a game
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Catherine Laartii
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
504
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Posted - 2015.04.15 16:29:12 -
[54] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:As a maxed freighter/JF pilot, even I have to say this is a bad idea. All that would happen is a DC would become mandatory on all fits, since one module outstrips any combination of the other 3 slots. The EHP is all that keeps the ship alive, by DETERRING the gankers.
I don't like ganking, but I still support it: it brings in subscriptions/plex purchases by offering fast access to being a bad person en mass, without joining lowsec and null groups that require much time and dedication. It also helps keep the market moving; every lost item provides opportunity to someone else, and supports pick-up games for people short on time and low on internet spaceship morals.
Eve needs them.
I much prefer the current freighter system, it is a good balance of options and while the nerf does hurt the prepared, it further separates the fools and their isk. Freighters have been fixed, they do not need another pass. Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear. So there is nothing you want to see improved or changed about them at all, then? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1690
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Posted - 2015.04.15 16:50:48 -
[55] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Zimmer Jones wrote:As a maxed freighter/JF pilot, even I have to say this is a bad idea. All that would happen is a DC would become mandatory on all fits, since one module outstrips any combination of the other 3 slots. The EHP is all that keeps the ship alive, by DETERRING the gankers.
I don't like ganking, but I still support it: it brings in subscriptions/plex purchases by offering fast access to being a bad person en mass, without joining lowsec and null groups that require much time and dedication. It also helps keep the market moving; every lost item provides opportunity to someone else, and supports pick-up games for people short on time and low on internet spaceship morals.
Eve needs them.
I much prefer the current freighter system, it is a good balance of options and while the nerf does hurt the prepared, it further separates the fools and their isk. Freighters have been fixed, they do not need another pass. Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear. So there is nothing you want to see improved or changed about them at all, then?
I'd like to see them come back to what they used to be but that ship has sailed. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
286
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Posted - 2015.04.15 17:20:27 -
[56] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:They should instead be nerfed because as it is with isboxer bans only 2-3 groups of people can put together a fleet capable of ganking medium tanked ones.
To gank a 1 mil ehp ark you probably can't get a gank squad together at all. Go away carebear, highsec is safe enough. Neither nerf nor buff is necessary. CODE, CFC, PIZZA, BL, BRAVE, Gorgon are already 6 groups who can gank freighters the old fashioned way with ease and who do it regularly. With Hyperdunking, you need 3 people to gank a freighter: 1 Bumper, 1 Bowhead/Orca pilot and 1 Ganker. Done. And no amount of HP matters for that type of ganking. Guess, how many players can gather 3 people to do just that. Interestingly enough, however, hyperdunking seems to have decreased drastically. By the looks, it currently happens just as often as you see an Ark with HG Slaves, A-Type ANPs and links flying around 20B in value.
By the time you're thru your 5th cata, the real bois will have arrived.
Fat loots don't sit idle for long.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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