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Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:25:25 -
[1] - Quote
Stations should give bonuses to SP training while you're docked there. If you want bonuses outside the station, use implants. Implants would not stack with station SP bonuses. This would push players to actually undock with implants if they want the SP bonuses while undocked. Otherwise, they'll enjoy the SP bonuses once their done and they dock again. SP bonuses from station docking should be the same regardless of the station (NPC, player owned, etc.).
What do you guys think? |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
259
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:29:24 -
[2] - Quote
So not only are people not going to leave Hisecks for a few years on average due to their +5s, they'll even stop undocking now?
Sounds good.
P.S. https://zkillboard.com/kill/45629670/ - After exceeding system's warp speed limit, the police had stopped me and things got pretty heated, with me ending up in a chokehold. Ungood.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:35:28 -
[3] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:So not only are people not going to leave Hisecks for a few years on average due to their +5s, they'll even stop undocking now? Sounds good.
Can you elaborate?
Let me clarify:
Flat, uniform, maximum bonuses for docked characters that do NOT stack with existing implants.
If you want bonuses to continue while undocked, you have to use implants.
In what I'm proposing, implants are only useful if you undock with them.
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Paranoid Loyd
4656
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:38:32 -
[4] - Quote
I'll elaborate: It is idiotic to make a mechanic that encourages people to not undock. HTH
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
253
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:43:32 -
[5] - Quote
I worked for my implants, are you going to take away my improved sp/hr (relative to players who didn't get them) simply because I'm not undocked and cloakied up at a safe spot?
also, how does this work for those logged off in empty space (WH'ers in particular)
if you make people in station train at the speed of +5's (or better), you add a disincentive for those without +5's to undock (BAAAAD!), although +5's become pretty much mandatory for skill training, the bigger the buff, the greater the disincentive
if you make people in station train at the speed of +4's or lower, you penalise those with +5's who are unable to log in directly after DT (such as USTZ) to get their toon into space (if they don't get the implant bonus whilst logged off), or they start logging off in space, people will go AFK cloaky, (cloaks skyrocket in price; start investing) instead of AFK in station, market traders and other professions that spend a lot of their time in station (but can work from outside station with correct skills) find those skills become mandatory, those who can't avoid spending time in station get penalized.
tl;dr all I see this doing is providing disincentive to undock, if implemented one way, penalizing those who can't log in until later after DT if implemented another, or just kicking people out of station to AFK cloaked if implemented another
please explain how you would implement it (what level the attribute bonus would be at, and what happens to those logged off; both in space and in station) and how it actually does any good to any player given the work-arounds I've just suggested (afk cloaked in space)
also - which player group should benefit from this and which should this mechanic penalise if they don't play by the rules you want them to play?
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
165
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:48:57 -
[6] - Quote
I spend most of my time sitting in station waiting for fleets to shoot things.
Don't buff behaviour that promotes not being in space.
If anything, you should nerf SP rate while docked. |
Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:51:18 -
[7] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:I'll elaborate: It is idiotic to make a mechanic that encourages people to not undock. HTH
How does the mechanic encourage people remain docked? If they get blown up and end up back at a station, they are getting bonuses. There's nothing to lose. If they want to continue to get bonuses while undocked, they have to buy implants.
This would discourage buying implants and then sitting in a station with them. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
253
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:54:01 -
[8] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:I spend most of my time sitting in station waiting for fleets to shoot things.
Don't buff behaviour that promotes not being in space.
If anything, you should nerf SP rate while docked.
at which point people go AFK cloaky in space with their expensive implants..... > no real change
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
if you make people in station train at the speed of +5's (or better), you add a disincentive for those without +5's to undock (BAAAAD!), although +5's become pretty much mandatory for skill training, the bigger the buff, the greater the disincentive
this would also be a BIG penalty to WH'ers
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:54:43 -
[9] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:I spend most of my time sitting in station waiting for fleets to shoot things.
Don't buff behaviour that promotes not being in space.
If anything, you should nerf SP rate while docked.
Interesting idea regarding nerfing SP rate while docked. Essentially I'm proposing two things:
-Implant SP bonuses don't work while docked.
-Stations give SP bonuses while docked. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
253
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 21:57:32 -
[10] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote:Interesting idea regarding nerfing SP rate while docked. Essentially I'm proposing two things: -Implant SP bonuses don't work while docked. -Stations give SP bonuses while docked.
would that rate be at +5 or higher or +4 to +1 or +0 or lower?
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 22:00:37 -
[11] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:I worked for my implants, are you going to take away my improved sp/hr (relative to players who didn't get them) simply because I'm not undocked and cloakied up at a safe spot?
also, how does this work for those logged off in empty space (WH'ers in particular)
if you make people in station train at the speed of +5's (or better), you add a disincentive for those without +5's to undock (BAAAAD!), although +5's become pretty much mandatory for skill training, the bigger the buff, the greater the disincentive
if you make people in station train at the speed of +4's or lower, you penalise those with +5's who are unable to log in directly after DT (such as USTZ) to get their toon into space (if they don't get the implant bonus whilst logged off), or they start logging off in space, people will go AFK cloaky, (cloaks skyrocket in price; start investing) instead of AFK in station, market traders and other professions that spend a lot of their time in station (but can work from outside station with correct skills) find those skills become mandatory, those who can't avoid spending time in station get penalized.
tl;dr all I see this doing is providing disincentive to undock, if implemented one way, penalizing those who can't log in until later after DT if implemented another, or just kicking people out of station to AFK cloaked if implemented another
please explain how you would implement it (what level the attribute bonus would be at, and what happens to those logged off; both in space and in station) and how it actually does any good to any player given the work-arounds I've just suggested (afk cloaked in space)
also - which player group should benefit from this and which should this mechanic penalise if they don't play by the rules you want them to play?
True, the station bonus would need to be the same as the maximum implant bonuses. As it is now, there's already a disincentive to undock with implants. With this change, there would be no advantage to staying docked.
Also, if I wasn't clear, if you log off in space with implants, those SP bonuses from your implants continue to work while you're logged off (just like they do now).
AFK (or logged off) cloaking in space (with maximum bonuses from implants) would be the same as AFKing (or logging off) in a station regardless of implants.
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Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 22:01:37 -
[12] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:Toke Erday wrote:Interesting idea regarding nerfing SP rate while docked. Essentially I'm proposing two things: -Implant SP bonuses don't work while docked. -Stations give SP bonuses while docked. would that rate be at +5 or higher or +4 to +1 or +0 or lower?
I would guess +5 - or the equivalent maximum that implants give you. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
253
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 22:10:07 -
[13] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote:True, the station bonus would need to be the same as the maximum implant bonuses. As it is now, there's already a disincentive to undock with implants. With this change, there would be no advantage to staying docked. Also, if I wasn't clear, if you log off in space with implants, those SP bonuses from your implants continue to work while you're logged off (just like they do now). AFK (or logged off) cloaking in space (with maximum bonuses from implants) would be the same as AFKing (or logging off) in a station regardless of implants.
if the station give an bonus equal to +5's, there's a HUGE disincentive for anyone without +5's to undock (less sp/hr), and no new incentive to undock with implants
Quote:I have a new character, who only has +1's and a single +2, I'm gonna spend as much time in station as possible to boost sp/hr
Quote:I have an old character with a full set of +5's, my sp/hr doesn't change between docked and undocked, and the risk/reward don't change from the old system to this therefore there needs to be a sp/hr NERF whilst docked (say no bonuses to sp/hr from implants)
AFK-ing how do you know whether I'm AFK at a safe or AFK waiting for that juicy ratting/sleepering carrier/tengu/drake to do something to make itself vulnerable (such as changing alignment) or AFK 90km from a POS gleaning intel? do you penalise me for using a cloak? - that'd massively punish WH space (where a cloak is pretty much mandatory for stalking any kind of prey)
logging off in space people will log off in space instead of stations, probably at POS's /garage door of stations
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
165
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 22:22:45 -
[14] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote: Interesting idea regarding nerfing SP rate while docked. Essentially I'm proposing two things:
-Implant SP bonuses don't work while docked.
This encourages only the people with implants to undock.
Toke wrote:-Stations give SP bonuses while docked. This encourages everyone with implants less than the station bonus to remain docked.
If a station gives a flat +3 bonus, then when I want to train with my +2 set, my best choice is to stay in station. If I have a +3 set, I also remain in station because I don't risk losing anything.
If a station gives a flat -1 bonus, then everybody is encouraged to be in space. |
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2015.04.13 22:32:36 -
[15] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote:Stations should give bonuses to SP training while you're docked there. If you want bonuses outside the station, use implants. Implants would not stack with station SP bonuses. This would push players to actually undock with implants if they want the SP bonuses while undocked. Otherwise, they'll enjoy the SP bonuses once their done and they dock again. SP bonuses from station docking should be the same regardless of the station (NPC, player owned, etc.).
What do you guys think?
As the others said;none will undock. Also EVERYONE will stay online and docked (AFK) while they sleep/work/etc. The server will be full in a matter of less than a day after that patch.
Bad idea. |
Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 22:35:59 -
[16] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:if the station give an bonus equal to +5's, there's a HUGE disincentive for anyone without +5's to undock (less sp/hr), and no new incentive to undock with implants
Actually if you're planning on staying docked, there's no point in buying implants to begin with. Implants would only be useful if you're undocked. Currently people switch clones to undock (losing at least 20 hours of SP bonus time). Those same people in this system would only lose time while they were undocked - they wouldn't have to worry about switching clones since they don't have any implants. You would only use implants if you wanted those bonuses while undocked.
"I have a new character, who only has +1's and a single +2, I'm gonna spend as much time in station as possible to boost sp/hr"
The noob-only bonus items help mitigate this to a degree. You might be right, here. Although I see it as the lesser of two evils (the other being veterans who never undock due to expensive implants).
"I have an old character with a full set of +5's, my sp/hr doesn't change between docked and undocked, and the risk/reward don't change from the old system to this"
If you have an old character with +5s you don't care about undocking since your SP/hr won't change. Buying implants would only be useful if you undock. Otherwise you wouldn't buy them.
Xe'Cara'eos wrote: therefore there needs to be a sp/hr NERF whilst docked (say no bonuses to sp/hr from implants)
You'd have pods logging off right outside of stations, I think.
Xe'Cara'eos wrote: AFK-ing how do you know whether I'm AFK at a safe or AFK waiting for that juicy ratting/sleepering carrier/tengu/drake to do something to make itself vulnerable (such as changing alignment) or AFK 90km from a POS gleaning intel? do you penalise me for using a cloak? - that'd massively punish WH space (where a cloak is pretty much mandatory for stalking any kind of prey)
logging off in space people will log off in space instead of stations, probably at POS's /garage door of stations
I apologize, I still don't follow how AFKing will effect anything any more than it does now. Can you explain a bit further?
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Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 22:38:10 -
[17] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Toke Erday wrote:Stations should give bonuses to SP training while you're docked there. If you want bonuses outside the station, use implants. Implants would not stack with station SP bonuses. This would push players to actually undock with implants if they want the SP bonuses while undocked. Otherwise, they'll enjoy the SP bonuses once their done and they dock again. SP bonuses from station docking should be the same regardless of the station (NPC, player owned, etc.).
What do you guys think? As the others said;none will undock. Also EVERYONE will stay online and docked (AFK) while they sleep/work/etc. The server will be full in a matter of less than a day after that patch. Bad idea.
Not sure what you mean. I never said you had to be logged in for any of this to work. |
Toke Erday
Tarnak inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 22:47:12 -
[18] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote: ...
This encourages only the people with implants to undock.
... This encourages everyone with implants less than the station bonus to remain docked.
For the first one, I think it encourages undocking even if you have implants (which is what this is all about).
For the second one (and the first one to a degree), people jump to an empty clone and have to suffer 20+ hours of no SP bonuses if they want to undock. Instead, with this system, that would only be as long as th ey are undocked - not 20 or more hours.
Rawketsled wrote: If a station gives a flat +3 bonus, then when I want to train with my +2 set, my best choice is to stay in station. If I have a +3 set, I also remain in station because I don't risk losing anything.
If a station gives a flat -1 bonus, then everybody is encouraged to be in space.
The station would give a flat +5 bonus. If you're afraid of losing your implant set as it stands currently, you have to jump to another clone and suffer 20HRs of no bonuses. With this system, even if you did lose your set, the station bonuses will take care of you anyway.
Implants might become less valuable with this system (but game changes cause this to happen to items in the game for the sake of a better experience anyway - so I see that as a necessary cost).
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
359
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Posted - 2015.04.14 00:05:06 -
[19] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote:Can you elaborate?
Let me clarify:
Flat, uniform, maximum bonuses for docked characters that do NOT stack with existing implants.
If you want bonuses to continue while undocked, you have to use implants.
In what I'm proposing, implants are only useful if you undock with them.
So what's the point in undocking?
You're creating an incentive for new players to find things to do that don't require them to undock because the alternative is to spend a load of ISK on implants they can lose. If they want to go mission they're effectively paying for it with SP, and that's not a good trade off. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
762
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Posted - 2015.04.14 00:38:59 -
[20] - Quote
As far as I can see this proposal does nothing to discourage risk averse behaviour and makes any attribute enhancing implant and the work and time spent acquiring them pointless.
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
268
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Posted - 2015.04.14 01:11:57 -
[21] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:So not only are people not going to leave Hisecks for a few years on average due to their +5s, they'll even stop undocking now? Sounds good. Can you elaborate? Let me clarify: Flat, uniform, maximum bonuses for docked characters that do NOT stack with existing implants.
I would rather take a flat +10% increase in overall Attributes for everyone in New Eden, which would apply anytime, anywhere.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7854
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Posted - 2015.04.14 01:14:09 -
[22] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote:True, the station bonus would need to be the same as the maximum implant bonuses. As it is now, there's already a disincentive to undock with implants. With this change, there would be no advantage to staying docked. I had to do a double take on the underlined part.
You need to brush up on your logic.
- Character gets full implant-like bonuses for being docked (without having to pay for anything). - Character loses full implant-like bonuses when undocked (because he/she doesn't want to pay for implants).
Now explain to me what the incentive is for undocking?
Toke Erday wrote:Also, if I wasn't clear, if you log off in space with implants, those SP bonuses from your implants continue to work while you're logged off (just like they do now). You missed the point about this affecting wormholers. And Null-sec to a lesser degree.
Most people in either area of the game don't have implants... because warp disruption bubbles all but assure pod kills.
And in wormhole space there are no stations to dock in.
Ergo... the only characters that will gain maximum benefit from this are characters who exist only in high-sec and never take part in any player vs. player combat.
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
268
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Posted - 2015.04.14 01:18:26 -
[23] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: And in wormhole space there are no stations to dock in.
Xaxaxa.
Posting in a stealth wormhole nerf thread.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Mag's
the united
19284
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Posted - 2015.04.14 02:56:33 -
[24] - Quote
What an absolutely awful idea.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2031
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Posted - 2015.04.14 05:58:53 -
[25] - Quote
Or... we could just utterly remove attributes and everyone can train at a flat rate, and we remove the whole issue surrounding isk impacting on real time (since training is real time), and newbies having to constantly train off map even with the additional remaps, or end up waiting several months to do stuff. There are enough non attribute implants to take up the slack. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
270
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Posted - 2015.04.14 09:40:32 -
[26] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or... we could just utterly remove attributes and everyone can train at a flat rate, and we remove the whole issue surrounding isk impacting on real time (since training is real time)
Is bad.
Implant ISK sink is good. ISK advantage is also relatively good and healthy.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1086
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 10:02:26 -
[27] - Quote
Mag's wrote:What an absolutely awful idea.
Succinct...yet so true. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
607
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Posted - 2015.04.14 15:31:13 -
[28] - Quote
Mag's wrote:What an absolutely awful idea.
Its having a slight appeal to me.
Its awful no doubt but I like the presentation.
It uses the (absurd) logic of Ford Prefect to the road clearing crew foreman from hitchhikers guide. Since we can assume Mr. Dent will be laying in front of the bulldozer all day long and the crew will be doing nothing anyway we don't need him to be actually laying there now do we?
This rates a 10/10 if trolling. Which I hope it is. The other option is well....we have a good case of why random drug testing is a necessary evil in this world lol.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1088
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Posted - 2015.04.14 15:40:44 -
[29] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Mag's wrote:What an absolutely awful idea. Its having a slight appeal to me. Its awful no doubt but I like the presentation. It uses the (absurd) logic of Ford Prefect to the road clearing crew foreman from hitchhikers guide. Since we can assume Mr. Dent will be laying in front of the bulldozer all day long and the crew will be doing nothing anyway we don't need him to be actually laying there now do we? This rates a 10/10 if trolling. Which I hope it is. The other option is well....we have a good case of why random drug testing is a necessary evil in this world lol.
Unless we make the assumption he's on drugs and thus can all go to the pub for some beer and peanuts.
Remember to bring your towel. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
256
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:50:48 -
[30] - Quote
Toke Erday wrote:Rawketsled wrote: ...
This encourages only the people with implants to undock.
... This encourages everyone with implants less than the station bonus to remain docked.
For the first one, I think it encourages undocking even if you have implants (which is what this is all about). For the second one (and the first one to a degree), people jump to an empty clone and have to suffer 20+ hours of no SP bonuses if they want to undock. Instead, with this system, that would only be as long as th ey are undocked - not 20 or more hours. Rawketsled wrote: If a station gives a flat +3 bonus, then when I want to train with my +2 set, my best choice is to stay in station. If I have a +3 set, I also remain in station because I don't risk losing anything.
If a station gives a flat -1 bonus, then everybody is encouraged to be in space.
The station would give a flat +5 bonus. If you're afraid of losing your implant set as it stands currently, you have to jump to another clone and suffer 20HRs of no bonuses. With this system, even if you did lose your set, the station bonuses will take care of you anyway. Implants might become less valuable with this system (but game changes cause this to happen to items in the game for the sake of a better experience anyway - so I see that as a necessary cost).
ohhhhh, I see, so basically you want to make it easier for people to hop into PVP clones?
the problem with your idea is that it also affects those without clones and without implants
also - shah has the right of it (kinda), a couple of minor adjustments WH'ers have some pretty expensive sets of clones all too often (at least the high enders, who i presume you're not worried about), but they're also inversely treated to everyone else in the thread..... null-seccer's frequently have several clones, including one of +5's which may or may not be in HS - this change MIGHT pull those +5 clones to null if they're not already there
the characters who gain max benefit from this are HS casual PVP'ers, including those who already own +5's then probably new players who get a set of +5's every time they dock
perhaps a better way to achieve what I'm percieving your aims to be would be to: adjust the jump clone mechanic, so HS-HS transfers have less cooldown than null-null transfers
I apologise for not answering each comment individually, if the topic is still alive come sunday, I will have done so by Sunday 0000 (UTC)
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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