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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
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Posted - 2015.04.15 02:21:39 -
[61] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Querns wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....
in other words. "We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."
Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter. ISK/HR all the money in the world to buy the nothing on market. Sounds like a fun game. That's where importing comes in. The JF pilot gets paid, the importer gets paid, and the buyer gets what he wants. Everyone wins!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1573
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Posted - 2015.04.15 02:23:05 -
[62] - Quote
Siigari Kitawa wrote:I thought Eve was about having connections and being able to do many things well.
If you give nullsec alliances a button to push so they can have everything they want, isn't that a bit inane? Why not make them work for it SOMEWHAT. I mean, I feel for them, I really do. In high and low, Zyd, Mega and Morph are nearly impossible to come by in usable quantities. I understand Mex is difficult for null to come by. So why give them everything and stifle everyone else?
Just seems fundamentally wrong in a SANDBOX. You are aware that mining ships can be destroyed in nullsec with impunity, right? You can go and SNIPE one today!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
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Posted - 2015.04.15 03:09:03 -
[63] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.
You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts.
You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
5789
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Posted - 2015.04.15 03:09:53 -
[64] - Quote
Querns wrote:Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.
Except that the high-ends already have such low value precisely because they are being mined out by people who "denigrate" themselves by mining everything based on "ISK/m3 to market."
Day 0 Advice for New Players
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
88
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Posted - 2015.04.15 03:21:14 -
[65] - Quote
These are great changes, but I'm still hoping that round 2 creates additional incentive for people to want to mine veldspar in lower security space. |
Phaestyriade
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
0
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Posted - 2015.04.15 03:28:51 -
[66] - Quote
WTS Roqual. IT is good for filling your sma. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
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Posted - 2015.04.15 03:56:16 -
[67] - Quote
Phaestyriade wrote:WTS Roqual. IT is good for filling your sma. I bid 1 isk. Really, this thread is nothing to do with the Rorqual though. (And it gives fine boosts atm anyway). We all know it's broken, but ore composition changes are nothing to do with it. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:12:30 -
[68] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Querns wrote:Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter. Except that the high-ends already have such low value precisely because they are being mined out by people who "denigrate" themselves by mining everything based on "ISK/m3 to market." How convenient it is, then, that the amounts of AB in ore prospecting anomalies are being lowered while usage in nearly all blueprints doubles!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:15:15 -
[69] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Vincent Athena wrote: No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.
You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts. You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well. Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it GÇö there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.
Which would you pick?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:23:54 -
[70] - Quote
Querns wrote: Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it GÇö there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.
Which would you pick?
Uh, I'd pick the static belt and not mine the C but cherry pick all the other ores in the belt to make my mineral income balance to output without importing from High Sec? Since constant over mining crashed C value till crying to CCP got it buffed again. That 'pittance' of ore you are talking about happens to be about 50% more ore than is available in a highsec belt, and there are about the same number of belts on average, plus about five times the number of null systems.
So overall null supply of ore was already orders of magnitude higher than high sec could ever supply assuming some use of the anoms also. I did a survey about six months back of about 30 null systems and posted some average results in a thread at the time. There was no issue with supply of ore in Null back then, this is just catering to the null miners who don't want to do anything but perpetually cycle anoms and hate the idea of having to even enter a belt. |
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:31:18 -
[71] - Quote
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:33:24 -
[72] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. why should the space be so worthless in comparison, importation is only real option? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:40:17 -
[73] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it GÇö there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.
Which would you pick?
Uh, I'd pick the static belt and not mine the C but cherry pick all the other ores in the belt to make my mineral income balance to output without importing from High Sec? Since constant over mining crashed C value till crying to CCP got it buffed again. That 'pittance' of ore you are talking about happens to be about 50% more ore than is available in a highsec belt, and there are about the same number of belts on average, plus about five times the number of null systems. So overall null supply of ore was already orders of magnitude higher than high sec could ever supply assuming some use of the anoms also. I did a survey about six months back of about 30 null systems and posted some average results in a thread at the time. There was no issue with supply of ore in Null back then, this is just catering to the null miners who don't want to do anything but perpetually cycle anoms and hate the idea of having to even enter a belt. Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck GÇö I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.
Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Gyr Altai
Alts Gone Bad
0
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:43:17 -
[74] - Quote
As a wormholer I think we need to move mining anoms back to scannables. I can hardly remember the last time I saw a barge in a WH anomaly. I feel more people would chance it if they had that chance of seeing probes on Dscan. More targets in space is a good thing.
Hell, I'd even take a skiff out once in a while if there was nothing else going on. Same as I do with gas huffing. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:47:05 -
[75] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. Nullsec is conquerable. Go carve out a slice if you want to get some. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov GÇö go forth and conquer!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:56:33 -
[76] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. why should the space be so worthless in comparison, importation is only real option? We import THEIR minerals / ores and yes importation is our only option. To answer your question their space is FAR from worthless. It is a fact they have so much more profitable activities that they farmout their mining already to those desiring to mine their space for them.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2036
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:56:46 -
[77] - Quote
Querns wrote: Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck GÇö I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.
Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.
Except you have never surveyed a high sec belt obviously, and realised they have LESS ore than the Null belts you are busy calling useless. Yet somehow they have been supplying all your importing needs thus far. Meaning the Null belts obviously are capable of supplying your needs WITHOUT any changes to the anomalies.
Sure, you can suck forever at the most valuable ore, but by doing so you decrease it's value over time, since supply increases as a result. Hence what has happened to the ABC's, you increased supply because they were valuable, and then glutted the market. The problem comes where you went crying to CCP to fix a self induced issue, and cried for long enough that they have changed it to artificially give you more profit again. So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything.
Needed buffs to null, I'm all happy for, needless buffs like this one, yes I'll fight against because this is just pandering to null players who ALREADY have the tools they need for local industry. And are just being given more and more and more advantage now. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
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Posted - 2015.04.15 04:59:56 -
[78] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. Nullsec is conquerable. Go carve out a slice if you want to get some. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov GÇö go forth and conquer! If I wanted to do that I wouldn't be playing in highsec. Also, they have the option of highsec mining if they wanted to play as I do.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
226
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Posted - 2015.04.15 05:07:44 -
[79] - Quote
The Rorqual should be part of this month's balance pass to enable those miners to pull in more yield cause its hard work sitting in a spot chewing on a rock, then to get hot dropped on by a fleet of so-called pro-pvpers who like to gank something that cant really fight back.
Give the Rorqual some love..
this will not STOP
until the Rorqual is back on TOP! |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
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Posted - 2015.04.15 05:19:48 -
[80] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:We import THEIR minerals / ores and yes importation is our only option. I'll venture to geuss the value and volume of the minerals you need from null are fractional compared to what is hauled out in the same time period.
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:To answer your question their space is FAR from worthless. It is a fact they have so much more profitable activities that they farmout their mining already to those desiring to mine their space for them. Yes, and most of those activities don't include strip miners I'll bet. And as for renting, not everyone chooses optimal isk/hr playstyles, so I wouldn't point to that as a primary indication of comparitive profitability.
Goal of these changes isn't to simply make null miners richer, but to make the indutrialists and those farther down the resource chain, less reliant of the next JF load from highsec. |
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2256
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Posted - 2015.04.15 05:21:48 -
[81] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:The Rorqual should be part of this month's balance pass to enable those miners to pull in more yield cause its hard work sitting in a spot chewing on a rock, then to get hot dropped on by a fleet of so-called pro-pvpers who like to gank something that cant really fight back.
Give the Rorqual some love..
this will not STOP
until the Rorqual is back on TOP! The rorqual has as much place in this discussion as jump fatigue and mission running. Very little and only a secondary effect to be considered.
Simply hijacking a thread to get attention to something unrelated is kinda lame. And also against the forum rules. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
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Posted - 2015.04.15 05:26:12 -
[82] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck GÇö I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.
Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.
Except you have never surveyed a high sec belt obviously, and realised they have LESS ore than the Null belts you are busy calling useless. Yet somehow they have been supplying all your importing needs thus far. Meaning the Null belts obviously are capable of supplying your needs WITHOUT any changes to the anomalies. Sure, you can suck forever at the most valuable ore, but by doing so you decrease it's value over time, since supply increases as a result. Hence what has happened to the ABC's, you increased supply because they were valuable, and then glutted the market. The problem comes where you went crying to CCP to fix a self induced issue, and cried for long enough that they have changed it to artificially give you more profit again. So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything. Needed buffs to null, I'm all happy for, needless buffs like this one, yes I'll fight against because this is just pandering to null players who ALREADY have the tools they need for local industry. And are just being given more and more and more advantage now. No, I get it GÇö highsec belts are even more useless for making money than nullsec belts. The tradeoff is safety in both mining and getting your product to market. People very willingly accept a lower isk/hr to leverage that safety. Nullsec, being far less safe, needs the goose to actually get people into space with their nuts in the wind. Highsec currently supplies lowends to nullsec because there are far, far more people in highsec than nullsec. It isn't because of static belts being mineral manna from heaven GÇö it's because the thin resources there are more savagely exploited due to the much higher player count.
This is the dirty secret of highsec static belts GÇö they contain even less ideal mixes of ores, but the safety of mining the ores you do have, the wide, wide net from which to mine (all of empire space!) and literal afk hauling to market means you have a much larger plate from which to take.
Meanwhile, nullsec has no safety at all except that which we claw out; hauling is near suicidal without a JF (and then, fatigue,) and an individual nullsec pilot has far fewer places from which to mine. (Not all nullsec dwellers belong to the Imperium!)
Additionally, you are dangerously misunderstanding the reason why highends were (prior to the speculation rush) garbage. When drone poo was removed, a massive low-end faucet was closed. Low-ends became the mining bottleneck, causing high-ends to swirl around in the toilet of the market. Furthermore, since high-end bearing ores have to be mined to cycle the ore prospecting sites, those few still mining (habitation? autism co-morbidity?) continued to railroad more and more highends onto the market.
Also, this is worth requoting:
Quote: So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything.
Uh, zones in eve have NEVER been equally valid. Nullsec has larger risk; so follows larger rewards. If all zones were equally valid, why would anyone live in nullsec when you could have CONCORD watching your back? In nullsec, you can get SNIPED at any time.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
218
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Posted - 2015.04.15 05:26:57 -
[83] - Quote
CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop. As, usual you put not the slightest thought to "balancing" highsec ore or you just straight up don't care that you are transferring our ISK to the nullsec cartels.
Btw, what you should do is make lowsec ore more valuable and leave nullore where it is now. Lowsec is where the real challenge is in mining and according to your mantra of risk vs reward lowsec ore should be carrlying the highest premium in the game.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1574
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Posted - 2015.04.15 05:28:59 -
[84] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:CCP you should compensate highsec ore so our real income doesn't drop Hi, highsec incursions called.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Jethro Amar
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.04.15 07:24:33 -
[85] - Quote
To all the hisec miners: I get it that you make less profit. I'm not even using the risk vs reward mantra. Just tell me one thing: what do you need that isk for? i mean, living in hisec means you never lose anything, so whatever wealth you accumulate is never used. What's the whining all about when average hisec player is probably much much wealthier than a nullsec player (taking length of play into consideration).
The problem in nullsec mining is that you can easily die in a system with 100 blues. There is no way for people to help you unless they're on grid already. Before they arrive the barge is down anyway.
Create a new module: when activated the ship is disabled and invulnerable for 30 sec. This will allow the blues to come and help, but do nothing to save a lone miner. Not working in hisec of course or having some other limitations that would keep ganks possible. This would improve the game on a few levels. First is obviously improved mining in null and people might actually use exhumers again. It would help against cloaky campers and their lame blop drops. It would allow mining in lowsec, which is nowadays pure suicide. The most important however would be the gameplay around new idea of "owning a system". it would allow merc corps to actually have a meaning. If used in hisec it would allow for corps to fight wardeccers or pay somebody to do it. It would allow hisec players to go to lowsec and make friends with the pvpers there for protection. It would allow protection rackets in non-sov systems(curently those are impossible cause no protection can be given). It would allow a dozen other thing that I haven't thought about. |
Shegox Gabriel
Angry Angels Constructions The Kadeshi
2
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Posted - 2015.04.15 08:35:40 -
[86] - Quote
The rebalance as itself looks nice. With the current market prices for minerals is it a nice increase in Isk/h for 0.0 Mining.
I made a spreadsheet with the new 0.0 Ores & Belts here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgOipMOuTaDLAJLeCH-q6zFq-vir9DL-waaUGx9sPtk/pubhtml [Sorry that it is in german, but most of the things should be clear [Refiningfaktor means how much you get and Steuern means taxes. Gewinn pro Hulk is how much ISK you do with a full skilled T2 Hulk [212.000m-¦/h]. |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1329
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Posted - 2015.04.15 08:42:47 -
[87] - Quote
Mineral price crash for all minerals incoming.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1962
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Posted - 2015.04.15 09:01:37 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists. Fozzie, could you briefly expand on this? Do you think that this balance pass will result in greater local null production but retain some dependence on other space?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Neugeniko
Insight Securities
62
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Posted - 2015.04.15 09:18:55 -
[89] - Quote
Changes look good. Current compressed ore prices seem to indicate the market was expecting full mineral independence for null. Glad to see that wont be the case and there will still be a export market from Hi to Null. Expecting a slight increase in prices over the coming weeks.
Cheers, Neug
Indices/Mining Simulator V3.8 UPDATED
Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.3
Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
279
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Posted - 2015.04.15 09:40:50 -
[90] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.
Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov GÇö go forth and conquer!
Itsatrap. ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦)
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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