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Ryomaru Reaper
We Heart U
14
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:06:42 -
[1] - Quote
I didn't know where to put this, but I got some questions regarding this program:
Is PLH (Pirate's Little Helper) safe to use, in the sense it not being able to hack me?
Is it allowed to be used, by CCP, is there any official post about this program?
Does it in any way, grab my info, and store it on the internet, or anything of that sort?
Thanks for reading :3 |
Paranoid Loyd
4746
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:09:14 -
[2] - Quote
Does PLH spy on me? No, PLH does not gather any intel about you. The server never knows your character and cannot relate any requests to it. Anything that can be done locally isn't even sent to the server.
"Why should I trust you?" anonymous on the internet
Good news: you don't need to, I explicitly allow the decompilation of PLH to check that it does not do anything you would not expect from it! If you cannot read code, you can also just black box check the server communication e.g. with Fiddler.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Mario Putzo
1190
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:10:53 -
[3] - Quote
Yes,It Wont, Yes,yes, Probably not, It can, yes, wouldn't worry
You're welcome. |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Absolutely Certain
189
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:11:49 -
[4] - Quote
Its not grabbing your info, it pulls it from zkillboard based on a name you give it (I don't use the DScan stuff, I do that fine on my own). Just use the online variation if you have concerns about the program ( http://eve-plh.com/#/plh_online ).
I've had no issues with it though, very useful tool when I am hunting in null.
-Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space.
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Ryomaru Reaper
We Heart U
14
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:12:01 -
[5] - Quote
You copy pasting their FAQ, does not answer my question, though I appreciate your "effort"...
You could've just said, yes, or no, on one or either question... |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Absolutely Certain
189
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
http://puu.sh/hgrR9/22ad05ea03.jpg <- that is the page I linked you.. doesn't look like a FAQ to me..
-Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space.
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Paranoid Loyd
4746
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Posted - 2015.04.16 22:15:51 -
[7] - Quote
Ryomaru Reaper wrote:You copy pasting their FAQ, does not answer my question, though I appreciate your "effort"...
You could've just said, yes, or no, on one or either question... This is the part that matters:
Good news: you don't need to, I explicitly allow the decompilation of PLH to check that it does not do anything you would not expect from it! If you cannot read code, you can also just black box check the server communication e.g. with Fiddler.
You can check for yourself, just because I say it is fine doesn't mean a damn thing. For all you know I could be the one who wrote the program and am trying to mislead you.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Eldwinn
V.O.I.D. Shadow Cartel
291
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Posted - 2015.04.16 23:17:42 -
[8] - Quote
The plague of PVP in low sec is pirates little helper. You suddenly have people that know how to dscan (when they really have no clue what they are doing on the dscan tool) and you have people that can just parse out what is bait / valid targets from local. Powerful tools are way too powerful. |
Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
0
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Posted - 2015.04.17 22:17:55 -
[9] - Quote
Ryomaru Reaper wrote:I didn't know where to put this, but I got some questions regarding this program:
Is PLH (Pirate's Little Helper) safe to use, in the sense it not being able to hack me?
Is it allowed to be used, by CCP, is there any official post about this program?
Does it in any way, grab my info, and store it on the internet, or anything of that sort?
Thanks for reading :3
Hi, I'm the author of PLH. As mentioned on the page. PLH does not do anything you wouldn't expect from it. It does not contain any malicious parts and as already mentioned in this thread you can check that yourself.
There is no official post and CCP does not "whitelist" any programs (and if you think about it, how could they), in my experience you won't get any real answer if create a petition asking if any program is allowed. PLH is on the official fansite list of CCP, but that does not guarantee its validity.
But, I have a few things to consider which hopefully can put your mind at ease a bit: - It does not violate the EULA/ToS. If you are unsure about it, you have to read them yourself to confirm that. - The "license" of it does not guarantee anything, with the solely exception that it isn't used to gather intel on anyone. - I guarantee that if CCP rules anything PLH does as illegal in the future, I will immediately remove that feature. I made that publicly clear on multiple occasions. - There are CCP devs using/knowing PLH who also know my stance on cheating and that I do not want PLH to be in any violation of the EULA/ToS.
No, it does not grab/store any info on the internet. As mentioned, you can check that yourself.
@Eldwinn I'm sorry that you think so negative about PLH. My primary intention is to increase the amounts of fights you get as solo small gang player and from own experience I can say that it does accomplish it. You say that it lowers the skill ceiling too much, but imho you are giving PLH a bit too much credit here. Especially in lowsec/FW the DScan Tool is not overly useful. Most of the time 5 degree scans on plexes etc. are faster and more accurate (and don't require any dscan skill). It's usefulness in low is mostly to quickly assess if a ship is under a POS, imho.
But, i'm of course interested in discussing what others do not like about it (tbh this is the first time I hear something like this). Because my view is limited and maybe it does degrade the game in a way I didn't think about, which I, of course, do not want. If you are interested, please try contacting me in game to discuss this. |
Eldwinn
V.O.I.D. Shadow Cartel
291
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Posted - 2015.04.17 23:03:06 -
[10] - Quote
Rischwa Amatin wrote:@Eldwinn I'm sorry that you think so negative about PLH. My primary intention is to increase the amounts of fights you get as solo small gang player and from own experience I can say that it does accomplish it. You say that it lowers the skill ceiling too much, but imho you are giving PLH a bit too much credit here. Especially in lowsec/FW the DScan Tool is not overly useful. Most of the time 5 degree scans on plexes etc. are faster and more accurate (and don't require any dscan skill). It's usefulness in low is mostly to quickly assess if a ship is under a POS, imho.
But, i'm of course interested in discussing what others do not like about it (tbh this is the first time I hear something like this). Because my view is limited and maybe it does degrade the game in a way I didn't think about, which I, of course, do not want. If you are interested, please try contacting me in game to discuss this.
I just feel as if the tool lowers the skill level getting into dscanning and validating information on pilots. I find it common now that pilots never learned how to use the dscan tool however they know PLH in depth. Also in the past if you wanted to validate if a pilot was a potential cyno pilot, you would have to look up their killboard and filter through the kills / losses. Basically PLH overall lowers the time required to dscan and lookup potential kills.
This has an effect of course on the game. That effect is lowering content in some cases and lowering the skill level of the game. An example talking about less content is, say if I have a slightly burnt HIC alt in a system all day waiting for a super. That pilot has only a couple cyno ship losses and has yet to lose a HIC. That character is going to be flagged by PLH as a cyno toon. This forces myself to roll(remake a new HIC alt) the account far more often to maintain getting super / titan kills. An example how this removes the skill level to play the game is, say I jump into a system and find a mining fleet that I think is at a belt. It normally takes me without any tool help about 20 seconds (if I am in a ceptor) to get tackle. This is time from me jumping into local and getting tackle. While another person with less skill and has only been playing the game for about 3months has the ability to do the same thing. This should simply never happen. Yes this portion of PLH does increase content however allows new bros to effectively dodge learning how to use the dscan tool.
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Nalia White
Tencus
109
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Posted - 2015.04.17 23:33:44 -
[11] - Quote
@eldwin PLH just told me you are a dirty cyno bait 2015-04-16. no wonder you don't like it :P
it is for us solo and small gang players primarly and it does its job well!
Danke Rischwa :) |
Eldwinn
V.O.I.D. Shadow Cartel
291
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Posted - 2015.04.17 23:55:57 -
[12] - Quote
Nalia White wrote:@eldwin PLH just told me you are a dirty cyno bait 2015-04-16. no wonder you don't like it :P
it is for us solo and small gang players primarly and it does its job well!
Danke Rischwa :)
RIP
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
980
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Posted - 2015.04.18 00:50:32 -
[13] - Quote
It seams the tool is not opensource, so a thirdparty validation of the source code is not possible. You have to trust the developer or not use the tool. I don't critizice that the tool is not open source i just state a simple fact. It is the choice of the developer and if you want to use his tool you have to respect that choice.
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
2
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Posted - 2015.04.18 07:37:55 -
[14] - Quote
@Eldwinn So you are a cyno hotdropper complaining about low skill pvp ... Sorry, only a joke, I just couldn't resist ;) With regard to your concerns: I don't consider analysing killboards something requiring skill. It is just a tedious task and e.g. a dedicated cyno char stands so much out, you can see them in probably under a second upon just glancing over the kb overview. I also wouldn't be too concerned on your part over your HIC pilot. Checking KBs on a low populated system you jump your lonely super to is pretty much mandatory and you don't jump it into a crowded system. I really don't think you loose kills because of PLH. Someone who wouldn't think of checking the KBs won't use PLH and check the tags (because that in itself acknowledges that checking KBs is relevant).
The DScan locator isn't as good as you probably think (do you use it yourself?). As it cannot differentiate between multiple locations being at similar ranges (0.1 AU). If you have a mining fleet close enough to pinpoint them with the method you are probably at an advantage with PLH, but as mining fleets are virtually non existing in lowsec, I don't really think PLH has a measurable impact on that playstyle.
Now with cyno baiting, I can imagine that PLH can have an effect, but tbh I won't loose any sleep over that and think that the positive effect of PLH on the game (which definitely are there, too) are waaaaaayyy higher. If there are other concerns, please feel free to contact me in game, I think discussing it live would be better than this format.
@Ima Wreckyou This is not true. While PLH is not open source, I allow decompilation (so if you can read open source code, you can read PLH) and you can black box check its server communication (e.g. with fiddler) and see that it only transmits character ids of in your local and only once for every character during a session (so the server can't even deduce who you are, if you don't filter out blues) |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2822
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Posted - 2015.04.18 08:09:03 -
[15] - Quote
First time i hear about this tool but then i never been a fan of using 3rd party tools.This one however looks rrrrreally usefull for the new guys who want to try out low-sec pvp but lack a ton of experience.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2589
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Posted - 2015.04.18 19:00:49 -
[16] - Quote
Rischwa Amatin wrote:@Ima Wreckyou This is not true. While PLH is not open source, I allow decompilation Sorry, but this is complete bull and I can not let this stay here uncommented.
You allow decompilation.
Ha!
Anyone can do it ... ... and no one needs your permission!
You are not doing anyone a favour here ... ... or showing generousness ... ... because you have absolutely no control over what I do with *any* software on *my* machine!
BUT BESIDES THAT does the hypocrisy not end yet!
Absolutely most people could'nt even read a single line assembler, or any C dialect!
Of those who are able to read at least one programming language, only a tiny part will actually be able to get to understand your code!
It's a gigantic amount of effort to read through anyone elses executeable to find out how it works!
TL;DR:
Bullshit!
Glad I got to correct this slight flaw in your perception.
This one is one of my better posts. You should see the others ....
"I've tried to give up making sexual innuendos. But it's hard, so hard." -RoAnnon
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4379
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Posted - 2015.04.18 19:26:33 -
[17] - Quote
This thread has been moved to EVE Technology Lab.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
3
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Posted - 2015.04.18 21:02:59 -
[18] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote: Anyone can do it ... ... and no one needs your permission!
You are not doing anyone a favour here ... ... or showing generousness ... ... because you have absolutely no control over what I do with *any* software on *my* machine!
(...) Absolutely most people could'nt even read a single line assembler, or any C dialect! (...) It's a gigantic amount of effort to read through anyone elses executeable to find out how it works!
(...)
Sorry, but you are wrong with both claims.
1) while you technically can decompile anything on on your machine, legally you aren't allowed to, depending on the legislation in your country. This problem is solved through my explicit permission.
2) It is not C, but a C#/.NET binary and modern decompilers produce perfectly readable code out of it, so anyone able to read code can do so. I even already got valuable hints for some improvements from people decompiling and checking the code. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
985
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Posted - 2015.04.19 02:05:05 -
[19] - Quote
Rischwa Amatin wrote:Eve Solecist wrote: Anyone can do it ... ... and no one needs your permission!
You are not doing anyone a favour here ... ... or showing generousness ... ... because you have absolutely no control over what I do with *any* software on *my* machine!
(...) Absolutely most people could'nt even read a single line assembler, or any C dialect! (...) It's a gigantic amount of effort to read through anyone elses executeable to find out how it works!
(...)
Sorry, but you are wrong with both claims. 1) while you technically can decompile anything on on your machine, legally you aren't allowed to, depending on the legislation in your country. This problem is solved through my explicit permission. 2) It is not C, but a C#/.NET binary and modern decompilers produce perfectly readable code out of it, so anyone able to read code can do so. I even already got valuable hints for some improvements from people decompiling and checking the code. Oh and if you do not want check the code, as already mentioned in this thread, you can still use Fiddler to check the unencrypted communication with the server and see that PLH does not send any info about you to my server. You don't need to be a programmer for that as the data model you see in the communication is pretty much self explanatory. 1) So in your country it is not allowed to decompile a suspected malware to analyze the code? That seams rather strange. Anyway, since I don't always ask the authorities if I want to decompile a piece of software on my computer I don't really need your permission to do it. And if I find something shady, do you really think someone will have a problem with the decompilation if it turns out you produce malware? The only thing where this is actually a legal problem is if I use it to gain knowledge about the inner workings of your software and use that knowledge in a competing software. So your permission for decompilation is useless and redundant.
2) I'm glad I can now compile all my ***** structured and documented code and decompile them to get a readable well structured code. Yes, you can probably deduce the inner workings of a program out of a decompiled binary, but it is hardly a good comparison to full access to the original documented and versioned source code. If you really care about people inspecting your work and fixing bugs, decompiling is probably the worst way to ensure they are able to do something about it. Also there are ways to obfuscate malicious code in the result of a decompilation, why do you think it is so hard to detect malware?
3) There are mutiple ways for a well crafted program to escape detection with common tools for black box testing. I mean if you know them you can just stop doing bad things if they are running.. Even you mentioning this raises some red flags.
I just tried to point out that using closed source software has some major risks because a serious third party evaluation is not possible. This is not my personal opinion, this is common knowledge in the software industry. Why do you think crypto software is required to be opensource (this does not automatically mean free software) ?
You can pretend how save your software is as much as you want, but don't tell me I am a liar if I point out that no one else really is able to verify your claim, which is actually true.
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
3
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Posted - 2015.04.19 07:10:54 -
[20] - Quote
1) Sorry, but I don't think this is how it works for large parts of the world. You are not allowed to decompile something without permission of the owner to check for malware. At least not in the EU and I don't think in the US, too.
2) As I said modern .NET decompilers work remarkebly well. Others already had no problem understanding my code. Your comments about hiding malware in a decompilation do not apply, just try it. I also don't care about others fixing bugs for me. I know that open sourcing PLH will create far more problems for me than help. I have tons of OSS experience as I was a developer for KDE for many years. I know what comes with it.
3) Sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. Then just use another machine as internet gateway and check the communication there ... It is not a problem to check out the communication of a program without it noticing anything when you have full access to a part of the communication pipeline.
What you don't seem to see is that open source software would for virtually everyone not be a single bit safer than a closed build, because to be safe you'd need to a) check the code for every release b) compile it yourself
Otherwise the author can just provide clean source code and distribute a binary which is different. How many people do you think would do this?
My point stands, you can verify my claim through a) decompilation (there are no ways to hide something in a .NET binary which magically won't show in the decompiled result) b) black box checking the communication
Also c) open sourcing won't help a single bit with it for almost everyone |
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beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
87
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Posted - 2015.04.19 07:32:49 -
[21] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:1) So in your country it is not allowed to decompile a suspected malware to analyze the code? That seams rather strange. The EU directives "on the legal protection of computer programs" expressly allow decompilation of a copyrighted program only if it is needed in order to write interoperable software; decompiling suspected malware might be permitted under the "to observe, study or test the functioning of the program" exemption, but I'm well into IANAL territory here. I'm not sure if any of this would actually hold up in court, but in many EU countries, it is the law.
(I don't agree with the author's stated reason for keeping the project closed-source either, I'm just pointing out that copyright law is ******) |
Nalia White
Tencus
112
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:35:30 -
[22] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote: 1) So in your country it is not allowed to decompile a suspected malware to analyze the code? That seams rather strange. Anyway, since I don't always ask the authorities if I want to decompile a piece of software on my computer I don't really need your permission to do it. And if I find something shady, do you really think someone will have a problem with the decompilation if it turns out you produce malware? The only thing where this is actually a legal problem is if I use it to gain knowledge about the inner workings of your software and use that knowledge in a competing software. So your permission for decompilation is useless and redundant.
so your argument is as long as you CAN do it, it doesn't matter if it's illegal? Mind = blown.
yeah i am also not asking the authorities before i rob someone, what a coincidence :) |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
995
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:34:46 -
[23] - Quote
Nalia White wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote: 1) So in your country it is not allowed to decompile a suspected malware to analyze the code? That seams rather strange. Anyway, since I don't always ask the authorities if I want to decompile a piece of software on my computer I don't really need your permission to do it. And if I find something shady, do you really think someone will have a problem with the decompilation if it turns out you produce malware? The only thing where this is actually a legal problem is if I use it to gain knowledge about the inner workings of your software and use that knowledge in a competing software. So your permission for decompilation is useless and redundant.
so your argument is as long as you CAN do it, it doesn't matter if it's illegal? Mind = blown. yeah i am also not asking the authorities before i rob someone, what a coincidence :) This comparison is obsurd. We are talking about malware detection and not stealing something. Calm down and put the stuff back before they get you!
the Code ALWAYS wins
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
6045
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Posted - 2015.04.20 15:29:35 -
[24] - Quote
Aww, the argument over a faster/better tool versus doing it the old-fashioned way (and walking uphill both ways while doing it) seemed much more interesting than worrying about whether or not one can legally decompile software.
Let's get back to pretending that it is fun to search killboard information by hand rather than letting PLH gather and compile this info rapidly.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Cpt Mooney
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2015.06.11 23:20:20 -
[25] - Quote
as someone whos allways been too lazy to crawl the killboards as much as he should, i say "thank you" for your awsome work! this should totally be an ingame feature. :thumbsup: |
Capt Charles Vane
Meatshield Bastards The Bastards.
0
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Posted - 2015.08.12 16:56:41 -
[26] - Quote
does this only run in windowed mode only? Can't seem to get this working in full screen mode. |
Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
4
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Posted - 2015.08.15 17:21:19 -
[27] - Quote
Capt Charles Vane wrote:does this only run in windowed mode only? Can't seem to get this working in full screen mode. I does not work in full screen mode, but you can (and should) run eve in fixed window mode. It looks like fullscreen, but you can alt+tab much faster and PLH can run on top of it. |
Ikki Phoenix
Warriors Gaming Corporation Imperium Galactic Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.08.17 06:14:30 -
[28] - Quote
Personally I love this tool and I recommend it to my corp/alliance/coalition. I hope more features and integration with the game will be added.
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