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BN0216 Lim
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Posted - 2015.04.19 09:44:57 -
[1] - Quote
Like discussed [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=401032[/url], I also think missiles need some assistance modules, too. - especially for explosion radius.
People say like, 'hey you have target painters, webs, rigs, implants and if you are going to hit smaller ships, use precision missiles and stay calm'. But for all that, I am a missile lover, and want to show how it is unreasonable for a missileboat to engage with smaller ships than a gunboat.
1. Variousness of fittings
First, I want to show how the missileboats are restricted to fit the ships (especially when want to deal with various size of ships).
There are two types of assistance modules. One is buffing my weapons, another is nerfing enemy. But except damage multiplier modules, only turrets have some other buffing modules like tracking computers(TC), tracking enhancers(TE) and tracking links(TL). Nerfing modules are like targeting painters(TP) and webs.
Due to the fact that turrets have those modules, they have more broad range of selection to increase their expected dps. They can consider whether to use TC, TE, TP, webs or rigs but also can consider TLs, especially when running fleet with T2 logistics.
Missiles?
Missiles lack of those direct buff modules nor the TLs, and only left to choose TPs, webs or rigs. Moreover, those are not as effective as used with turrets, due to the difference of damage formula. I'll show this below.
2. Effectiveness of assistance modules
Thanks to the turret's damage formula, when turrents trying to hit a smaller ship (lets say, a frigate), they do not suffer from increasing the target's TINY signature radius because it is more easy to increase the turret's tracking by TE, TC, TL or decrease target's velocity by webs. Furthermore, when target is almost stopped - usually happens with Vindicators, target signature radius is useless. And if the target is in the optimal range, it will hit the frigate with a FULL DAMAGE. Even a capital class turret can hit and blow it.
However missiles in a same situation - trying to hit a stopped frigate (throwing the explosion velocity away from here), missiles need one more step. Making explosion radius smaller and target signature radius bigger.
Lets say we are in a Raven Navy Issue with full skilled. We get 25% decreased explosion radius due to its ship bonus. Fitting two T2 rigor and one T1 rigor rigs will give another 55% decreased explosion radius. And, you know,
In EFT, it says a normal cruise missile's explosion radius will be decreased from 313.5 to 100.98. Marvelous! But it is not enough to hit a frigate which the signature is less than 50. This will decrease its actual damage by more than a half. FYI, a precision missile with same setup has 90.882 explosion radius. And, you know, thats what all we can do for explosion radius (except the implant which reduces only maximum 6%. When it is plugged, final explosion radius is reduced to 94, but I did not included this in below calculations).
Now, lets take two TPs to the target frigate. Each of them will increase 37.5%, tally 75% (when equiped meta 4 TP, full skilled and ignoring stacking penalty). BUT the target frigate, which only has 35 signature radius will be around 60. Even if you take hundreds of TPs, you will hardly reach the signature radius to 100 since the stacking penalty exists.
Now, we get 40% decreased damage when using cruise missile, which the actual value is decreased from 776 to 460 with faction ammo, 675 to 447 with T2 precision missile (note that precision deals less than faction ammo). Interestingly, torpedo with faction ammo deals 467, which is the highest dps among them (torpedo's theoritical maximum damage was 1070).
So my conclusion is this :
Since turrets have more various assistance modules(and thanks to the formula), they are able to choose fits with various selections. Plus, they can hit smaller ships effectively with higher damages (and also with insta hit).
I showed a maximum effort to make the battleship class missile to deal with a frigate in a reasonable range. But the result shows that it is not enough to get full damage to a frigate. I know somebody will say like 'battleship class missiles are not for frigates, you maggot'. Then I'd like to say the battleship class turrets should also be expected to deal less like missiles do. But they AREN'T.
Then why not for missiles?
Any reasonable comment is appreciated. |
Ivarr Kerensky
Kerensky Tactical Group
49
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Posted - 2015.04.19 09:54:03 -
[2] - Quote
Because missiles are much simpler in use and because there's no EWAR against missiles (yet), also there's painters.
On top of that, when you're asking for new modules that augment a weapon's effectiveness you're really just asking for your ship to be nerfed. If they introduce a module to improve something that must mean they have to lower the base stats in order to not get silly results meaning that without those modules you'd be less effective, and you'd NEED those mods to be on par or slightly more effective, at the cost of.... slots. Slots you then can't use for other stuff.
So, be careful what you wish for.
Excellence is an attitude.
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Hal Morsh
Fruidian Logic Dramatic Exit.
295
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Posted - 2015.04.19 10:55:53 -
[3] - Quote
You can spin around a target stupid fast and not worry about tracking. Turrets don't have such luxury and as such need tracking computers occasionally.
Missles get rigs just like turrets though, so instead of augmenting your tank with rigs, just use slots. Shields even get shield boost booster modules that armor doesn't.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
939
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:14:57 -
[4] - Quote
BN0216 Lim wrote:Like discussed [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=401032[/url], I also think missiles need some assistance modules, too. - especially for explosion radius.
Sure. Once they've redone Sov and rebalanced capital ships, why not? They also still have off grid boosting to take care of. If all that is done, I'll look forward to a decent rework of missiles, including tracking disruption working properly for missiles too.
Remove insurance.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15613
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:21:40 -
[5] - Quote
OP has never met a RHML raven in their frigate.
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BN0216 Lim
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:35:06 -
[6] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:You can spin around a target stupid fast and not worry about tracking. Turrets don't have such luxury and as such need tracking computers occasionally.
Missles get rigs just like turrets though, so instead of augmenting your tank with rigs, just use slots. Shields even get shield boost booster modules that armor doesn't.
I guess you skiped the second section. FYI, I fitted a Raven Navy Issue which has 5% reduction in explosion radius per level to get a minimized explosion radius, including ALL of my rig slots for Rigors. And two target painters.
Even with those things, a precision cruise missile CANNOT hit a frig with its full damage.
Please refer section 2 of my writing. |
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
34
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:44:55 -
[7] - Quote
Prolly cuz CCP doesn't want u to 1 shot frigs with Cruises? |
BN0216 Lim
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:46:06 -
[8] - Quote
Ivarr Kerensky wrote:Because missiles are much simpler in use and because there's no EWAR against missiles (yet), also there's painters.
On top of that, when you're asking for new modules that augment a weapon's effectiveness you're really just asking for your ship to be nerfed. If they introduce a module to improve something that must mean they have to lower the base stats in order to not get silly results meaning that without those modules you'd be less effective, and you'd NEED those mods to be on par or slightly more effective, at the cost of.... slots. Slots you then can't use for other stuff.
So, be careful what you wish for.
Sure.
Honestly, I am not arguing for a pure buff for missiles. Many should be adjusted when these of modules are available. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15614
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:48:45 -
[9] - Quote
BN0216 Lim wrote:
I guess you skiped the second section. FYI, I fitted a Raven Navy Issue which has 5% reduction in explosion radius per level to get a minimized explosion radius, including ALL of my rig slots for Rigors. And two target painters.
Even with those things, a precision cruise missile CANNOT hit a frig with its full damage.
Please refer section 2 of my writing.
And my megathron will miss a frigate completely when using 425 rails. So, your cruise raven is in a much better position than my rail mega.
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Garnoo
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
174
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Posted - 2015.04.19 11:57:30 -
[10] - Quote
so... Op basicly took only cruise and toprs for testing against tiny, fast moving targets... first i thought hes a unexperience newbie, but hes not so young... and still missing so much of knowledge what kinds o weapons (missiles) we got in eve...
if you want to compare cruise missiles do it with large artys, rails, beams (NOT with ac's, blasters etc...) cruise missiles are the long range weapon
People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back --á EvE
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BN0216 Lim
Members of Sheol
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Posted - 2015.04.19 12:06:46 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:BN0216 Lim wrote:
I guess you skiped the second section. FYI, I fitted a Raven Navy Issue which has 5% reduction in explosion radius per level to get a minimized explosion radius, including ALL of my rig slots for Rigors. And two target painters.
Even with those things, a precision cruise missile CANNOT hit a frig with its full damage.
Please refer section 2 of my writing.
And my megathron will miss a frigate completely when using 425 rails. So, your cruise raven is in a much better position than my rail mega.
Even if you use rails(which are usually not proper fits for figs), you can hit a stopped frig (you can make it by webs lets say, 30m/s?). The better if you are buffed by TLs of T2 logistics.
That I am assuming a small fleet with a couple of T2 logistics playing PVE, you can even hit far more efficiently than my example RNI. |
BN0216 Lim
Members of Sheol
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Posted - 2015.04.19 12:18:30 -
[12] - Quote
Garnoo wrote:so... Op basicly took only cruise and toprs for testing against tiny, fast moving targets... first i thought hes a unexperience newbie, but hes not so young... and still missing so much of knowledge what kinds o weapons (missiles) we got in eve...
if you want to compare cruise missiles do it with large artys, rails, beams (NOT with ac's, blasters etc...) cruise missiles are the long range weapon
I chose it because it has more smaller explosion radius. = more effective on smaller ships.
Whey you know you are fighting against small ships, you would not bring artys, rails, especially for PVE (that I omitted in my article. sorry).
A comparision of short range (but for larger ships - this is why I compared them to cruise missile) missile, i.e. torpedo is already calculated its actual dps above.
I'm focusing on weapons for a 'smaller target' + with battleship class weapons, not classifying with different proper engagement range. |
Ivarr Kerensky
Kerensky Tactical Group
53
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Posted - 2015.04.19 12:51:38 -
[13] - Quote
"different weapon systems work differently, all have pros and cons. why can't I also have the pros of turrets added to my pros of missiles?"
ps, there is a solution: it's called rapid launchers.
Excellence is an attitude.
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Sadario
Appetite 4 Destruction
59
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Posted - 2015.04.19 12:57:07 -
[14] - Quote
You have to consider the pros and cons between systems.
Missiles will always hit the target, as long as it can catch up to its target within its specified flight time. Turreted ships actually require you to aim by tactical movement/placement.
Why give missiles another easy-mode for missions, making them able to kill frigates and BS even easier? Why give carebears another reason to AFK between reloads?
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BN0216 Lim
Members of Sheol
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Posted - 2015.04.19 13:12:52 -
[15] - Quote
Ivarr Kerensky wrote:"different weapon systems work differently, all have pros and cons. why can't I also have the pros of turrets added to my pros of missiles?"
ps, there is a solution: it's called rapid launchers.
Then they can add some disadvantages with current missile mechanism.
Something like - missiles now has probability of missing the target according to their flight time. or - missiles now are less guided to the target, faster ships may escape them.
I think rapids are not acceptable for PVE purpose because of its reload time, though. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15615
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Posted - 2015.04.19 13:55:32 -
[16] - Quote
BN0216 Lim wrote:
Even if you use rails(which are usually not proper fits for figs), you can hit a stopped frig (you can make it by webs lets say, 30m/s?). The better if you are buffed by TLs of T2 logistics.
That I am assuming a small fleet with a couple of T2 logistics playing PVE, you can even hit far more efficiently than my example RNI.
You wont hit squat at web range with any large rails in PvP which is why the weapons are balanced the way they are..
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4389
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Posted - 2015.04.19 14:03:42 -
[17] - Quote
As there already is a thread on the same topic, this one gets a lock.
The Rules: 17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.
As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussion regarding a topic to a single thread.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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