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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 03:45:09 -
[61] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Did you read the stuff above? Of all bs the rattler is the easiest to train into, its harder to maximize but to reach 750+ dps easily you need to spend like a week of training as its main damage comes from its role bonus.
Did you read what I said?
No matter how you try to argue this the rattle had two weapon systems you need to train and maintain. When you are learning a ship class you want the first steps to be as easy as you can make it and the rattle is not the best option for this. The raven only has the one weapon system it needs to worry about and is so easy to get into it has been to go to mission boat for the last decade.
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4367
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 03:54:20 -
[62] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:No matter how you try to argue this the rattle had two weapon systems you need to train and maintain. When you are learning a ship class you want the first steps to be as easy as you can make it and the rattle is not the best option for this. The raven only has the one weapon system it needs to worry about and is so easy to get into it has been to go to mission boat for the last decade. I think the Rattlesnake is potentially more forgiving for newer players.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 04:08:06 -
[63] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: I think the Rattlesnake is potentially more forgiving for newer players.
How?
Two weapon systems to train for so it takes twice as long to train.
Two lines of battleship are required to be trained.
You have two weapons to use so you have twice as much work in that area.
Drones require you to look after them and the rattle is not bonuses for light/med drones.
The raven is much easier to get into, cheaper, easier to use and fit. The rattle is something to aim for after you have been in the raven not before.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
129
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 04:17:37 -
[64] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: I think the Rattlesnake is potentially more forgiving for newer players.
How? Two weapon systems to train for so it takes twice as long to train. Two lines of battleship are required to be trained. You have two weapons to use so you have twice as much work in that area. Drones require you to look after them and the rattle is not bonuses for light/med drones. The raven is much easier to get into, cheaper, easier to use and fit. The rattle is something to aim for after you have been in the raven not before.
Because even at level 3 in each BS line, each weapon system type it will still out damage and with better application a Raven.
You can out damage a fully level V skilled Raven pilot in a Rattle piloted by a player with level 4 skills. It is just that simple. Again, Raven is not a good choice for level 3, you get all the draw backs of using a BS in a level 3 without the benefit of more dps. Rattle is also a ship that the OP can continue to skill and get better and better, where a Raven the pilot has to change weapon skills to get better and get a new hull.
What you are proposing is the OP get a Raven and skill for heavy missiles, then after "mastering" that he start skilling for cruise or torp, skill for Rattle (which means drones) or a Golem (very long skill train) and then sell his hull for upgrade.
What the rattle offers is to train for heavies and drones (which he already has) and use a ship that today gets him more DPS, more tank and better application of damage. Then tomorrow when he is level V his Rattle is only that much more amplified.
You are asking him to waste time and skills on something he wont fly tomorrow. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 04:29:54 -
[65] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Because even at level 3 in each BS line, each weapon system type it will still out damage and with better application a Raven.
You can out damage a fully level V skilled Raven pilot in a Rattle piloted by a player with level 4 skills. It is just that simple. Again, Raven is not a good choice for level 3, you get all the draw backs of using a BS in a level 3 without the benefit of more dps. Rattle is also a ship that the OP can continue to skill and get better and better, where a Raven the pilot has to change weapon skills to get better and get a new hull.
What you are proposing is the OP get a Raven and skill for heavy missiles, then after "mastering" that he start skilling for cruise or torp, skill for Rattle (which means drones) or a Golem (very long skill train) and then sell his hull for upgrade.
What the rattle offers is to train for heavies and drones (which he already has) and use a ship that today gets him more DPS, more tank and better application of damage. Then tomorrow when he is level V his Rattle is only that much more amplified.
You are asking him to waste time and skills on something he wont fly tomorrow.
Remind me, what battleship skill is required for the raven and the rattle?
Also, tell us what weapon system both ships get bonuses to?
Zero time is wasted here, the skills you get for the raven are the very same skills you need for the rattle. Also remember, I put a lot of time into a level 3 raven on a new pilot so I know exactly what it can do. The rattle was also tested and it is slower simply because of the way drones work. DPS isn't everything here.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
129
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 04:33:20 -
[66] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Because even at level 3 in each BS line, each weapon system type it will still out damage and with better application a Raven.
You can out damage a fully level V skilled Raven pilot in a Rattle piloted by a player with level 4 skills. It is just that simple. Again, Raven is not a good choice for level 3, you get all the draw backs of using a BS in a level 3 without the benefit of more dps. Rattle is also a ship that the OP can continue to skill and get better and better, where a Raven the pilot has to change weapon skills to get better and get a new hull.
What you are proposing is the OP get a Raven and skill for heavy missiles, then after "mastering" that he start skilling for cruise or torp, skill for Rattle (which means drones) or a Golem (very long skill train) and then sell his hull for upgrade.
What the rattle offers is to train for heavies and drones (which he already has) and use a ship that today gets him more DPS, more tank and better application of damage. Then tomorrow when he is level V his Rattle is only that much more amplified.
You are asking him to waste time and skills on something he wont fly tomorrow.
Remind me, what battleship skill is required for the raven and the rattle? Also, tell us what weapon system both ships get bonuses to? Zero time is wasted here, the skills you get for the raven are the very same skills you need for the rattle. Also remember, I put a lot of time into a level 3 raven on a new pilot so I know exactly what it can do. The rattle was also tested and it is slower simply because of the way drones work. DPS isn't everything here.
You want the OP to train heavy missiles and fly a Raven then switch to a Golem with Cruise.
I want the OP to max his skills to fly a Rattle while actually flying a Rattle all the while a better choice both now and in the future for him.
Your testing of the Ishtar vs Mach has little to do with a Rattle vs Raven.
I don't see why you continue to argue this |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 04:36:14 -
[67] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
You want the OP to train heavy missiles and fly a Raven then switch to a Golem with Cruise.
I have never mentioned the golem. What the OP does after learning the basics with the raven is up to him.
Market McSelling Alt wrote: I want the OP to max his skills to fly a Rattle while actually flying a Rattle all the while a better choice both now and in the future for him.
And I want the OP to learn the basics in an easy to get into ship as possible as quickly as possible for as little isk as needed.
Market McSelling Alt wrote: I don't see why you continue to argue this
Because you are giving poor advice.
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Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 04:53:24 -
[68] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:Megathron. I'm not re-quoting this fit. It makes my eyes bleed...
No one one told you too in the first place. The OP was asking. That fit is outdated been updated anyway its already been answered. That cement is random. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:06:27 -
[69] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:Megathron. I'm not re-quoting this fit. It makes my eyes bleed... No one one told you too in the first place. The OP was asking. That fit is outdated been updated anyway its already been answered. Your comment is mind boggling.
Its a poor fit.
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Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:12:08 -
[70] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:Megathron. I'm not re-quoting this fit. It makes my eyes bleed... No one one told you too in the first place. The OP was asking. That fit is outdated been updated anyway its already been answered. Your comment is mind boggling. Its a poor fit.
Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out. I did ask people seem to over look it. If it helps the man than help. I am just a price performance suggestion but if you know something tell OP. His thread not mines |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote: Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out.
Blasters lack the range to be effective lvl 4 mission runners unless you have speed and TE/Computers which your ship doesn't. The weapon systems in question reduce your resists to zero and even with the best willpower a ship with zero resists and no rep is going to die even in level 3s. The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless.
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4367
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:29:50 -
[72] - Quote
I didn't say it was necessarily better - I just said it was more forgiving. You can have mediocre drone and missile skills and it will still out-DPS a Raven. It has a heavier tank, higher resistances (even Caldari Battleship-III plugs the EM hole with 15%) and a passive shield recharge.
baltec1 wrote:The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless. The 4th typically yields 4.5-5% additional DPS, so I wouldn't exactly call it pointless.
baltec1 wrote:Blasters lack the range to be effective lvl 4 mission runners unless you have speed and TE/Computers which your ship doesn't. The weapon systems in question reduce your resists to zero and even with the best willpower a ship with zero resists and no rep is going to die even in level 3s. The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless. I would generally say that's correct. There are a few L4 missions ("The Damsel", "Stop the Thief") where blasters will excel, but these would be the exception rather than the rule.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
130
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:29:58 -
[73] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote:
Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out. I did ask people seem to over look it. If it helps the man than help. I am just a price performance suggestion but if you know something tell OP. His thread not mines
You've been asked about this fit and left my question without answer. Why would i counter fit anyfhing if your mega got nothing near to asked SNI/CNR or Rattler?
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Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:34:08 -
[74] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote: Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out.
Blasters lack the range to be effective lvl 4 mission runners unless you have speed and TE/Computers which your ship doesn't. The weapon systems in question reduce your resists to zero and even with the best willpower a ship with zero resists and no rep is going to die even in level 3s. The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless.
I respect that that is fair points. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for info will pass it along. Need more post like this. I did try put a few resists on but they never show correct not sure if bug or what. I figured too many damage mods before but I was not sure how much power OP needed but I could easy on them in a heart beat for repair, nano, or resist mod and go micro but I don't know if he will get scrambled or something. |
Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:35:36 -
[75] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:
Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out. I did ask people seem to over look it. If it helps the man than help. I am just a price performance suggestion but if you know something tell OP. His thread not mines
You've been asked about this fit and left my question without answer. Why would i counter fit anyfhing if your mega got nothing near to asked SNI/CNR or Rattler?
No I did not and you said you have nothing more to add so. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:38:31 -
[76] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote:
I respect that that is fair points. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for info will pass it along. Need more post like this. I did try put a few resists on but they never show correct not sure if bug or what. I figured too many damage mods before but I was not sure how much power OP needed but I could easy on them in a heart beat for repair, nano, or resist mod and go micro but I don't know if he will get scrambled or something.
Those guns reduce resists to 0 no matter what you fit. Damage mod wise anything over 3 suffers from diminishing returns to the point where they add very little. The last 4 damage mods on your ship add no damage at all, they are dead weight. Rats don't scramble.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
130
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:43:43 -
[77] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I didn't say it was necessarily better - I just said it was more forgiving. You can have mediocre drone and missile skills and it will still out-DPS a Raven. It has a heavier tank, higher resistances (even Caldari Battleship-III plugs the EM hole with 15%) and a passive shield recharge. baltec1 wrote:The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless. The 4th typically yields 4.5-5% additional DPS, so I wouldn't exactly call it pointless.
I like thread lime that where OP has already run away and probably already flying one of those ships whi h we are talkinv here.
The main thing is still the same - a newbe asking about fancy expencive ship he honestly thinks would help him to run missions much more easier than any t1 hulls.
The problem is also the same no matter what ship it is he still be doing poor perfomance due to lack of skills. So it is very stright forward way here vs spending extra isk on faction ships and mods which is simply feed those alod km's where newbe got full fit of faction mods and got owned by pirates. And all the tears and drama are followed.
So baltec is giving a very simple advise - not to spend unwillingly any extra isk and focus on learning abc's with standard raven. Though this would prevent newbe from unnessescary attention from gankers and even if he lost the ship that won't be that painfull. |
Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:44:17 -
[78] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:
I respect that that is fair points. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for info will pass it along. Need more post like this. I did try put a few resists on but they never show correct not sure if bug or what. I figured too many damage mods before but I was not sure how much power OP needed but I could easy on them in a heart beat for repair, nano, or resist mod and go micro but I don't know if he will get scrambled or something.
Those guns reduce resists to 0 no matter what you fit. Damage mod wise anything over 3 suffers from diminishing returns to the point where they add very little. The last 4 damage mods on your ship add no damage at all, they are dead weight. Rats don't scramble.
Good info. Thank. Need get some of my people on this Good look. Community could benefit from this and OP. Good look. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
130
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:51:00 -
[79] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote:
No I did not and you said you have nothing more to add so.
Reading your comments i'm really concerned that you are aware of how to run missions and what ship is good for that. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15646
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 05:58:08 -
[80] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: The 4th typically yields 4.5-5% additional DPS, so I wouldn't exactly call it pointless.
I'd only fit it if you didn't have anything else. A TE will add more DPS than a Mag stab.
baltec1 wrote: I would generally say that's correct. There are a few L4 missions ("The Damsel", "Stop the Thief") where blasters will excel, but these would be the exception rather than the rule.
Kronos can pull it off. If you can hit 50km with null then you can get away with it in a normal mega but you need max skills to get away with it.
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Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.04.26 06:07:32 -
[81] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:
No I did not and you said you have nothing more to add so.
Reading your comments i'm really concerned that you are aware of how to run missions and what ship is good for that.
It varies. Things have changed and been nerf or balance what I think or know could be gone tomorrow. I do but that does not mean you have doubts. Its eve nothing is set in stone so I do not type as so When I look back months later nothing In this thread will be what it was. Its foreshadowing. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
130
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 06:30:30 -
[82] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote:
It varies. Things have changed and been nerf or balance what I think or know could be gone tomorrow. I do but that does not mean you have doubts. Its eve nothing is set in stone so I do not type as so When I look back months later nothing In this thread will be what it was. Its foreshadowing.
Raven was a solid mission runner for years now. And only dramatic changes should make it useless. Let me ensure you that what we've discussed here would be still worth of reading and aknowledge. |
Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 06:42:23 -
[83] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:Aeon Ecko wrote:
It varies. Things have changed and been nerf or balance what I think or know could be gone tomorrow. I do but that does not mean you have doubts. Its eve nothing is set in stone so I do not type as so When I look back months later nothing In this thread will be what it was. Its foreshadowing.
Raven was a solid mission runner for years now. And only dramatic changes should make it useless. Let me ensure you that what we've discussed here would be still worth of reading and aknowledge.
A ship is only as good as the pilot. Maybe but if OP is not sure WHICH he seems to be than i would help more if he had more than one idea JUST to get some ideas of his or her own. More the merrier. Which is why its good to ask i mean is that not what people in eve tell you to do?
"if you do not know just ask somebody in chat they will help there players running this all the time"
heard that so many times so it could not hurt right? better than flying in and not knowing. I hear you on that but then i see the dev blogs and people up in arm eve on the official fb. I seen things and experienced them myself so i do not speak with a god mode on and there have been major changes maybe not on your end but just because YOU yourself have not felt them does not mean it has not happened. |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
130
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 07:42:26 -
[84] - Quote
excellent but on question asked by op you've linked some doubtfull fit with set of implants worth of billions and you think it's a good advise for a newbe ? who are you mr.? i hear some mentoring tone in what you saying but i don't see much of good advises in your comments.
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Aeon Ecko
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.04.26 07:51:10 -
[85] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:excellent but on question asked by op you've linked some doubtfull fit with set of implants worth of billions and you think it's a good advise for a newbe ? who are you mr.? i hear some mentoring tone in what you saying but i don't see much of good advises in your comments.
Baltec1 has already handle majority of that on asked so no point in beating a dead horse. See his comments for more detail. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
284
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 16:11:38 -
[86] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: I think the Rattlesnake is potentially more forgiving for newer players.
How? Two weapon systems to train for so it takes twice as long to train. Two lines of battleship are required to be trained. You have two weapons to use so you have twice as much work in that area. Drones require you to look after them and the rattle is not bonuses for light/med drones. The raven is much easier to get into, cheaper, easier to use and fit. The rattle is something to aim for after you have been in the raven not before.
Its doesnt matter how many skills you need to train to get maximum dps out of a hull, a rattlesnakes way harder to max then a raven but that doesnt matter.
A 2 month old character deals way more dps and tanks way more in the rattlesnake then in any other ship in game due to how well it scales with almost no skills making it the perfect ship for newer players.
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4369
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 17:07:38 -
[87] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:[A 2 month old character deals way more dps and tanks way more in the rattlesnake then in any other ship in game due to how well it scales with almost no skills making it the perfect ship for newer players. Aside from the cost difference (the Rattlesnake being about 2.1x more), even with minimal drone skills it's going to fare quite well.
Raven - Caldari Battleship I ... 6.32 effective launchers Rattlesnake - Gallente Battleship I ... 5.5 effective launchers plus drone DPS (Geckos are insanely easy to train into).
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
129
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 17:21:28 -
[88] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:[A 2 month old character deals way more dps and tanks way more in the rattlesnake then in any other ship in game due to how well it scales with almost no skills making it the perfect ship for newer players. Aside from the cost difference (the Rattlesnake being about 2.1x more), even with minimal drone skills it's going to fare quite well. Raven - Caldari Battleship I ... 6.32 effective launchers Rattlesnake - Gallente Battleship I ... 5.5 effective launchers plus drone DPS (Geckos are insanely easy to train into).
Dont forget the survivability, the resists on a RS are higher, and the EHP much much higher.
RS is just all around a better choice for the new and the old player. Raven is a horrible option for Level 3 or level 4. |
Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4369
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 17:27:43 -
[89] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Dont forget the survivability, the resists on a RS are higher, and the EHP much much higher. RS is just all around a better choice for the new and the old player. Raven is a horrible option for Level 3 or level 4. And the cost is hardly debilitating. RS is 365mil now and the Raven 175mil. It can take a while to train into the full resists for a Rattlesnake, but the substantially larger shield buffer and passive recharge make a huge difference. It really comes down to cost, which for quite a few is academic.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
134
|
Posted - 2015.04.26 21:38:22 -
[90] - Quote
Aeon Ecko wrote:
Baltec1 has already handle majority of that on asked so no point in beating a dead horse. See his comments for more detail. Good advice depends on how you take it. I could give a speech but what the point if it ls on deaf ears? define good advice? what is good to some is bad to other and what is bad to others is good to some. Can't MAKE it good advice if it is not seen as such. I leave it to the person to comprehend what HE or SHE wants to take from it.
I am a eve player NOT a rocket scientist. What do you want from me? can i live. Enjoy the game forget who is a kobe fan or lebron fan.
Let me ask you once again, what is the point of Megathron's fit you've linked? Is that your interpretation of good advise on ship to run missions? |
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