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Justin Cody
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
260
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Posted - 2015.04.21 04:03:10 -
[1] - Quote
The Good: Black Ops Battleships out-range caps and super caps for jump and bridge range. The Bad: Fatigue Timer unfortunately long for a guerilla ship. The Ugly:
- Less Tank than T1 counterparts
- Speed bonus while cloaked insufficient for pvp/evasive manuevers/tactical movement
- Some have useless bonuses**
Useless Bonuses:
Sin: 5% per level reduction in inertia modifier Result - slightly better MWD performance and align time...still aligns like a brick and warps like one too. Performance analysis: meaningless.
(Other related stat Mass being about 40M tons heavier than t1 battleships for no reason and probably offsets that inertia bonus altogether)
Panther:
Least massive and most agile (base) and gets velocity bonus...good but sorta uncreative
Widow: 4 low slow for armor tanking because if you want to use jammers you can't shield tank effectively Most massive and slowest with least damage potential.
useless bonus: cruise & torp velocity - you land 5km off the cyno usually point blank. Kinda useless as the target is hopefully already held down.
Redeemer: Most favored BlOps currently. Slow like the others but good damage and damage application
useless bonus: 10%/level energy reduction for laster turrent use. That's dumb across all amarr ships.
Solution Time:
General Changes: 125% max ship velocity/level > 500% velocity/level while cloaked per level so you can actually move around at 2km/sec while cloaked for all black ops BS's.
Suddenly blops become quite shark like and able to escape bubbles in a decent manner.
Sin: Change 5% agility bonus to 5% drone tracking/level
Panther: Velocity bonus can stay...otherwise offer projectile tracking bonus.
Widow: Reduce launchers to 3 slots, move two high slots to low so it has 6 low slots. Reduce CPU and grid by the loss of two launchers roughly.
12.5% per level to rapid heavy/Cruise/Torpedo RoF 5% reduction to Heavy/Cruise/Torpedo explosion radius/level
Redeemer: 10% reduction in large energy turret activation cost/level -> 10% to capacitor recharge rate/level
drop down to 5 turrets and move that high slot to a 5th mid. Increase rate of fire bonus from 5%/level to 7.5%/level
Enjoy! |
Justin Cody
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
260
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 04:05:52 -
[2] - Quote
In my opinion the fatigue for a black ops battleship should be like a jump freighter |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1439
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Posted - 2015.04.21 04:22:22 -
[3] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:In my opinion the fatigue for a black ops battleship should be like a jump freighter
It's my opinion people should stop acting like only their jump ship should be exempt from having to deal with fatigue.
The blopsers ask for (further) jump fatigue reduction on their blops. The guys without caps say there shoudl be no fatigue on JB's, the guys who just use carriers as suitcases think they should not have to deal with fatigue if they don't use it in combat. Some people want anti jump fatigue rigs, or anti jump fatigue drugs.
But in every case one thing defines it. They all open their mouth and say:
"I think that just the part of jump fatigue and/or jump range changes that negatively effects the way I want to play should be removed, the rest should stay"
No. You do not get the same all but total JF removal of industrials. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2303
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Posted - 2015.04.21 12:15:07 -
[4] - Quote
Jammers are the tank if you're using jammers. Always been that way with jamming ships.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
928
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Posted - 2015.04.21 15:30:41 -
[5] - Quote
I have to disagree with almost everything you have suggested.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
263
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Posted - 2015.04.21 17:42:46 -
[6] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:The Good: Black Ops Battleships out-range caps and super caps for jump and bridge range. The Bad: Fatigue Timer unfortunately long for a guerilla ship. The Ugly:
- Less Tank than T1 counterparts
- Speed bonus while cloaked insufficient for pvp/evasive manuevers/tactical movement
- Some have useless bonuses**
Useless Bonuses:
- Sin: 5% per level reduction in inertia modifier
Result - slightly better MWD performance and align time...still aligns like a brick and warps like one too. Performance analysis: meaningless.
(Other related stat Mass being about 40M tons heavier than t1 battleships for no reason and probably offsets that inertia bonus altogether)
Panther:
Least massive and most agile (base) and gets velocity bonus...good but sorta uncreative
Widow: 4 low slow for armor tanking because if you want to use jammers you can't shield tank effectively Most massive and slowest with least damage potential.
useless bonus: cruise & torp velocity - you land 5km off the cyno usually point blank. Kinda useless as the target is hopefully already held down.
Redeemer: Most favored BlOps currently. Slow like the others but good damage and damage application
useless bonus: 10%/level energy reduction for laster turrent use. That's dumb across all amarr ships.
Solution Time:
- General Changes: 125% max ship velocity/level > 500% velocity/level while cloaked per level so you can actually move around at 2km/sec while cloaked for all black ops BS's.
Suddenly blops become quite shark like and able to escape bubbles in a decent manner.
Sin: Change 5% agility bonus to 5% drone tracking/level
Panther: Velocity bonus can stay...otherwise offer projectile tracking bonus.
Widow: Reduce launchers to 3 slots, move two high slots to low so it has 6 low slots. Reduce CPU and grid by the loss of two launchers roughly.
12.5% per level to rapid heavy/Cruise/Torpedo RoF 5% reduction to Heavy/Cruise/Torpedo explosion radius/level
Redeemer: 10% reduction in large energy turret activation cost/level -> 10% to capacitor recharge rate/level
drop down to 5 turrets and move that high slot to a 5th mid. Increase rate of fire bonus from 5%/level to 7.5%/level
Enjoy!
I'll admit I don't fly BlOps ships.... but I think they should get a SMALL reduction in jump fatigue, since it is their 'pounceing' mechanism (this can always be adjusted later, and should apply to ALL combat covert ships) I think they don't need much tank as they should be for gang **** of a pre-held target, and you should know what you're jumping into - as you're jumping to a cyno (therefore you already have eyes on the field, and the target should already be held down, perhaps also jammed, TP'd and webbed) Also - having massive bonus to cloaked velocity is OP!, perhaps a small increase, say 137.5%, but I'm not really sure, given people already use faction/storyline cloaks on these things so they go faster cloaked than not!
if the panther lands on the cyno like all other BlOps ships, what the hell is the use of a velocity bonus?, kinda same with Sin....
Redeemer - bonuses look good to me, cap recharge makes it too powerful in extended engagements (BlOps are ambush predators)
Widow - I can see why you'd want the reduction to explosion radius (though atm it only gets bonuses to BS sized launchers), and I can see why CCP gave it the bonus to range, but I don't think it's particularly useful either: I'd keep it to 5% on RHML, Cruise, and Torp RoF, and change it to 5% reduction explosion rad (all missiles) No mucking with the slots, it doesn't need a bigger tank, it's got 8 meds FFS! (yes I know you use those to jam, that's your choice! you don't complain about having to put magstabs/heatsinks in your lowslots do you?)
Sin - Inertia modifier needs to be changed, on that mass it's not gonna do much.... perhaps a small bonus to MWD velocity boost/thrust? turret tracking might be a good option, too
Panther - velocity is a silly bonus..... how about a bonus to web strength or TP effectiveness? say 10%/lvl? No that's too much, how about 7.5%/lvl? or perhaps tracking/falloff? don't think it really needs another bonus to damage application
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1448
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Posted - 2015.04.21 17:51:30 -
[7] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I'll admit I don't fly BlOps ships.... but I think they should get a SMALL reduction in jump fatigue, since it is their 'pounceing' mechanism (this can always be adjusted later, and should apply to ALL combat covert ships)
They already get a 50% reduction to jump fatigue from distance traveled.
OP wants the same level 90% reduction as Jump freighters.
That means that if you did rapid fire jumps at absolute max range, as soon as the previous red coodown timer hit 0, it would take 7 consecutive max range blops jumps to reach one hour of fatigue.
AKA total removal if jump fatigue for Blops operations. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
263
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Posted - 2015.04.21 18:18:28 -
[8] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I'll admit I don't fly BlOps ships.... but I think they should get a SMALL reduction in jump fatigue, since it is their 'pounceing' mechanism (this can always be adjusted later, and should apply to ALL combat covert ships)
They already get a 50% reduction to jump fatigue from distance traveled. OP wants the same level 90% reduction as Jump freighters. That means that if you did rapid fire jumps at absolute max range, as soon as the previous red coodown timer hit 0, it would take 7 consecutive max range blops jumps to reach one hour of fatigue. AKA total removal of jump fatigue for Blops operations.
OP actually stated 75% I personally think 65% max....probably more like 55%
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
28
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Posted - 2015.04.21 18:33:34 -
[9] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I'll admit I don't fly BlOps ships....
Obviously.
Xe'Cara'eos wrote: ...given people already use faction/storyline cloaks on these things so they go faster cloaked than not!
It has nothing to do with faction or storyline cloaks, they go faster cloaked than uncloaked by design.
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Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1451
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Posted - 2015.04.21 18:47:16 -
[10] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote: OP actually stated 75% I personally think 65% max....probably more like 55%
Justin Cody wrote:In my opinion the fatigue for a black ops battleship should be like a jump freighter OP^
A change from 50% to 55% or 60% or even 65% would be of very little consequence.
A change from 50% to 90% is an 80% actual reduction from current in the effect of distance.
That means a 1 minute red timer and 15 minutes fatigue on the first jump and only a 8 minute blue fatigue cooldown after the second jump (to get back under the 10 minute threshold), even if you were going max distance and jumped back out as soon as the initial 1 minute red timer from the first jump ended.
A change from 50% to 60% is a 20% actual reduction from current in the effect of distance.
50-65% will still leave you with a decent amount of fatigue, which is what the OP was mad about to begin with. I rather doubt someone asking for an 80% reduction would be content with a 20% reduction.
And even if he would be happy with that, CCP already gave them a bonus that set the fatigue levels where they wanted it to be. It would take a far stronger rational than "I don't like it" to get them to change it lower.
No demonstrated reason to change it.
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
234
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Posted - 2015.04.21 18:52:10 -
[11] - Quote
Maneuverability. Tank Damage.
Pick two.
I have no issue with the tank on blops BS. T2 ships are supposed to be specialized, not better in every way (re: tiericide). Honestly if you are able to scout most of the ships home and 'walk' back, the fatigue really doesn't build up, even in a target rich area; its better that there is a tradeoff between a guaranteed safe trip home and being able to drop more, as better groups will get more drops in because they won't use the bridge home as a crutch every time.
Redeemer is probably the blops the rest should be brought 'up' to. Some do need work, yes, but that doesn't mean buffing them out of their role.
An overheat bonus after jumping for a few minutes, or some other kind of temporary thing would be interesting on blops, but they should never be able to, at least on paper, go toe to toe with line combat ships and come out favorably in the all important ISK war.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Justin Cody
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
260
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Posted - 2015.04.22 02:35:21 -
[12] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I have to disagree with almost everything you have suggested.
your opinion is noted.
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Justin Cody
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
260
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 02:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jammers are the tank if you're using jammers. Always been that way with jamming ships.
If jams worked every time? Sure then I'd agree. But with them being chance based vs the opposing sensor strength its meaningless.
I don't know if you remember when jamming was a simple game of addition/subtraction. 28 sensor str would need 28 points of ecm to jam...and you stayed jammed.
If that was the case then sure I'd agree. Right now if your jam misses that mod is useless for 20 seconds. If the jam fails you are now at a permanent slot disadvantage unlike the actual tank slots of other ships.
I do love the widow but it does the least dps, its slow as hell and its jams are borderline ineffective. Yes you can get a 10 jamming strength against any sensor type with dread guristas multispecs...but that is still terrible. |
Justin Cody
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
260
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 02:40:47 -
[14] - Quote
Sissy Fuzz wrote:Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I'll admit I don't fly BlOps ships....
Obviously. Xe'Cara'eos wrote: ...given people already use faction/storyline cloaks on these things so they go faster cloaked than not!
It has nothing to do with faction or storyline cloaks, they go faster cloaked than uncloaked by design.
They still don't move all that fast. |
Justin Cody
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
260
|
Posted - 2015.04.22 02:41:54 -
[15] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Xe'Cara'eos wrote: I'll admit I don't fly BlOps ships.... but I think they should get a SMALL reduction in jump fatigue, since it is their 'pounceing' mechanism (this can always be adjusted later, and should apply to ALL combat covert ships)
They already get a 50% reduction to jump fatigue from distance traveled. OP wants the same level 90% reduction as Jump freighters. That means that if you did rapid fire jumps at absolute max range, as soon as the previous red coodown timer hit 0, it would take 7 consecutive max range blops jumps to reach one hour of fatigue. AKA total removal of jump fatigue for Blops operations.
well yes. They are black ops...able to get behind enemy lines and actually y'know escape after. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1072
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Posted - 2015.04.22 03:14:49 -
[16] - Quote
the only BLOP that needs a little help is the sin(and it doesn't need anything major)
the fatigue is fine how it is and does not get in the way of what they do with the 50% reduction
widow does use that range bonus in a lot of set ups
widow has a **** tone of damage potential against cruisers
widows tank is the ECM when using ECM and it can fit a decent shield tank when it is not
the speed bonuse when cloaked is a great boon to blops both when trying to move them gate to gate and in large fights/gate camps
the panthers speed bones is amazing particularly if you couple it with a cloak
i get the feeling this guy doesn't use black ops but has thought about training for them just long enough to look at their traits
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Eridon Hermetz
shadow and cloaking Mordus Angels
24
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Posted - 2015.04.22 07:16:24 -
[17] - Quote
to use a loooooot of black ops battleship as my main way to PVP , there is my two cents about it
First : they aren't "bad" at all , but some of their bonuses can be tweaked and/or rebalance
Pro : -the ability to jump at 8LY with a reduced fatigue are really great , be able to hotdrop further than a titanbridge are really cool and give them a really good WTFBBQ capability -they have "some" T2 resist , so with a "pimped" active shieldtank (Like Gulnar and/or MaSL Sin's fit) they can have an awesome tank , really under-estimated , they have a really good potential to fight back during hotdrop (but that cost a lot of isk) -the ability to move faster while cloaked are a great GTFO tools , really (be able to cloack/align/warp off within 2 sec are really awesome)
beside all of this , they're is some point who are kinda meh....
heavier mass : coupled with velocity bonus and inertia modifier , just to compensate the heavier mass , it's inhalate in fact their bonuses.... really kinda meh to have bonus to compensate the ship himself....lel Slot Layout : seriously , BlackOps , since 2007 have never been touched in their slot layout they have less pwg/cpu than tech 1 Battleship since 2007 FFS !! how are we supposed to compensate this ? with pimped and faction mods , this is why black ops cost too much , not because they cost too much themselves , but too be able to fit them properly without trash them , YOU NEED to pimp , it's sad , really Strange bonuses : i kinda disagree with some of the bonuses wh seems kinda bad , in fact , some of them are really good the Panther for exemple , the bonus to velocity are really great , you can reach (with some implant , quafe and snake ofc) 2000 m/s , it's really trololo to purchase ishtar and **** with a fracking T2 BS xD but some bonuses are ... not really good it's true The ecm strenght bonuses of the Widow for example , are not enough strong for a fracking T2 battleship wo cost around 900m alone with fracktons of skills to be able to fly it properly (blops at 5 , signal dispersion at 5 , etc etc) , same strenght than a Falcon , seriously ? a 35% or 40% would be really good and correct , let me explain ok , we have 8 mids slot but just check in a blops you need heavy cap booster (because in jump in , you have 25% of capacitor only) sensor booster (especially in a widow , coupled with the scan reso penalty of the cloack) prop mod (MJD are really common today on blops) secondary point (because we never know , the cyno can be dead or whatever) that remain you with atleast 4 or 3 med slot for ecm and/or tank , it's really not enough to jamm anything (because if you want to rainbow , you gonna be armor tank , so the low slot gonna be fitted with plates and resist , no sig amplifier , and in shield fit , you gonna have not enough tank)
i gonna stop here because i have too much to say about blops , but im pretty sure that with a really few tweaks , we can make it good and interresting to play , without beeing OP as **** and solo pownage mobile |
Justin Cody
Tri-gun Psychotic Tendencies.
260
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Posted - 2015.04.23 00:52:11 -
[18] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:the only BLOP that needs a little help is the sin(and it doesn't need anything major)
the fatigue is fine how it is and does not get in the way of what they do with the 50% reduction
widow does use that range bonus in a lot of set ups
widow has a **** tone of damage potential against cruisers
widows tank is the ECM when using ECM and it can fit a decent shield tank when it is not
the speed bonuse when cloaked is a great boon to blops both when trying to move them gate to gate and in large fights/gate camps
the panthers speed bones is amazing particularly if you couple it with a cloak
i get the feeling this guy doesn't use black ops but has thought about training for them just long enough to look at their traits
1) agree to disagree on fatigue 2) blopsing at range doesn't happen. Yes you can MJD away instantly but then you're out of your ECM range on the widow 3) ECM is a busted old system that needs updating to be relevant and is not the equal of a shield tank 4) The cloaked speed bonus doesn't do anything in moving gate to gate...warp speed is uneffected and you still have to decloak to warp. You cannot avoid being decloaked because you are still too slow.
Yes you can hit your MWD just before cloaking and get some extra speed out of it but that goes away very quickly and only the panther is any good at it.
5) I've been in and around black ops longer than your character has lived. |
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