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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3318
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Posted - 2015.04.23 16:14:47 -
[91] - Quote
CCP has changed their position on various aspects of "acceptable game mechanics" before, and they will do so again. Consider their recent change to multi-casting. Will they change it here? I cannot say. As for supers: Yes , that is an issue. But if they were made vulnerable to scrams, then the need to bump scram them would go away, and the change I suggested could be implemented.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Daerrol
Furtherance.
123
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Posted - 2015.04.23 16:18:01 -
[92] - Quote
Newt BlackCompany wrote:Bumping should damage both ships. No it shouldn't. Do you even read the descriptions of the Minmatar ammunition? We hurl that stuff at each other like ti's nothing. The 125mm AC's minmatar have (the smallest non-civilian AC's in the game). Those shoot bigger rounds than the Abrams tank, in bursts, tipped with the same stuff that is in the sun (Hot plasma/fusion) or the stuff we use to blow up cities (Nuclear).
No bumping my ship should not damage it much compared to those types of things.
Edit: Here is what an 800mm cannon looks like. you know, those things that come in groups of 4 on the Minnie BS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyFKbLGGCVY Those can easily fire city-levelling rounds (By today's standards) |
Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
20905
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Posted - 2015.04.23 16:24:59 -
[93] - Quote
*bends forward, legs straight, checking her shoes*
Jokarz > you got owned?
Chris Justice > just a bit
Chris Justice > They were pulsing smart bombs at the point we all warped in. insta death.
Lev Arturis > pervs got 59 killmails
PERVS doing lowsec DD
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
905
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Posted - 2015.04.23 16:29:18 -
[94] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP has changed their position on various aspects of "acceptable game mechanics" before, and they will do so again. Consider their recent change to multi-casting. Will they change it here? I cannot say. As for supers: Yes , that is an issue. But if they were made vulnerable to scrams, then the need to bump scram them would go away, and the change I suggested could be implemented. Sure, CCP is known to make inconsistent decisions and changing there minds on things all the time, but they have been unusually clear on this issue. But I too cannot say what the future will hold.
However I do know that now bumping for ransom, and bumping as a tackle for ganking freighters is 100%-approved legal gameplay today. Therefore, I think threads like this should focus on giving players advice on how to avoid the bumpers and save the ideas for changing game mechanics for the F&I sub-forum.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1716
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Posted - 2015.04.23 16:29:55 -
[95] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:*bends forward, legs straight, checking her shoes*
Nice shoes, wanna .... |
Zealous Miner
177
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Posted - 2015.04.23 16:42:08 -
[96] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:After a ship's warp drive has been active for two minutes, the ship will enter warp, irrelevant of its velocity. All other warp mechanics stay the same. It's not uncommon at all for me to shut off the MWD when bumping to re-align myself. It allows for a quicker turn when setting yourself up to push them in a direction you want them to go due to how the extra mass from the MWD being active affects your agility.
Your idea just hit the wall harder than I hit that Charon in my Mach last night.
www.minerbumping.com
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Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
20907
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 16:48:28 -
[97] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP has changed their position on various aspects of "acceptable game mechanics" before, and they will do so again. Consider their recent change to multi-casting. Will they change it here? I cannot say. As for supers: Yes , that is an issue. But if they were made vulnerable to scrams, then the need to bump scram them would go away, and the change I suggested could be implemented. Sure, CCP is known to make inconsistent decisions and changing there minds on things all the time, but they have been unusually clear on this issue. But I too cannot say what the future will hold. However I do know that now bumping for ransom, and bumping as a tackle for ganking freighters is 100%-approved legal gameplay today. Therefore, I think threads like this should focus on giving players advice on how to avoid the bumpers and save the ideas for changing game mechanics for the F&I sub-forum. I once bumped a suspect iteron in my rifter. He was trying to get away with loot from a gank. Had no scram fitted, besides the scram/point being inefficient in such cases.
Bump... shoot... bump ... shoot ... bump ... shoot ... pop. ^_^
Jokarz > you got owned?
Chris Justice > just a bit
Chris Justice > They were pulsing smart bombs at the point we all warped in. insta death.
Lev Arturis > pervs got 59 killmails
PERVS doing lowsec DD
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1076
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Posted - 2015.04.23 17:51:17 -
[98] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:TigerXtrm wrote:baltec1 wrote:TigerXtrm wrote:
Until there's a valid counter to being bumped out of alignment indefinitely it's a bad mechanic, plain and simple
Webs. That would require a second ship where the bumper only needs one. Which by definition makes it unbalanced. What are you talking about? A freighter cannot be ganked in highsec by a single player flying any ship in the game. Does that mean freighter ganking is by definition unbalanced because it requires multiple players to destroy a single player's ship?
Who said anything about ganking? We're talking about bumping. And no, if you're going to attack a much larger class ship with a tiny ship it's only natural it takes more of them... What's not natural is that one big ship can prevent an even bigger ship from warping off without any kind of consequence.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1717
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Posted - 2015.04.23 18:08:08 -
[99] - Quote
Without thinking of all the other balance it would potentially break, would a freighter with a prop mod at least have a chance to outmanoeuvre a bumping ship enough to initiate a warp or is it too damn fat anyway? |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
906
|
Posted - 2015.04.23 19:09:16 -
[100] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Black Pedro wrote:TigerXtrm wrote:baltec1 wrote:TigerXtrm wrote:
Until there's a valid counter to being bumped out of alignment indefinitely it's a bad mechanic, plain and simple
Webs. That would require a second ship where the bumper only needs one. Which by definition makes it unbalanced. What are you talking about? A freighter cannot be ganked in highsec by a single player flying any ship in the game. Does that mean freighter ganking is by definition unbalanced because it requires multiple players to destroy a single player's ship? Who said anything about ganking? We're talking about bumping. And no, if you're going to attack a much larger class ship with a tiny ship it's only natural it takes more of them... What's not natural is that one big ship can prevent an even bigger ship from warping off without any kind of consequence. So your equal-player-equals-balance formula only applies when you think it appropriate? I think it is unbalanced that the largest and most damage-dealing ship I can fly in highsec is unable to kill your freighter under any circumstances (except if you purposely flag yourself). That is the unbalanced situation CCP is trying to deal with for capital ships, and one way to mitigate their power is to make capital ships vulnerable to bumping (and tackling in general) by smaller ships.
Eve is a social game. Ganking a freighter takers multiple players working together. Flying a freighter (or any capital ship) safely requires the same although the single webbing ship that a freighter needs to be safe barely qualifies as cooperative play.
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1076
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Posted - 2015.04.23 21:11:07 -
[101] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: So your equal-player-equals-balance formula only applies when you think it appropriate? I think it is unbalanced that the largest and most damage-dealing ship I can fly in highsec is unable to kill your freighter under any circumstances (except if you purposely flag yourself). That is the unbalanced situation CCP is trying to deal with for capital ships, and one way to mitigate their power is to make capital ships vulnerable to bumping (and tackling in general) by smaller ships.
Eve is a social game. Ganking a freighter takers multiple players working together. Flying a freighter (or any capital ship) safely requires the same although the single webbing ship that a freighter needs to be safe barely qualifies as cooperative play.
Still not talking about ganking. You could in theory bump a freighter 23 hours per day, he wouldn't be able to do anything about it on his own. Call me crazy but that's a little off isn't it?
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
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Zealous Miner
182
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Posted - 2015.04.23 21:41:36 -
[102] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Still not talking about ganking. You could in theory bump a freighter 23 hours per day, he wouldn't be able to do anything about it on his own. Call me crazy but that's a little off isn't it? Not really, because the bumper can't blow up the freighter by themself. If the freighter pilot never pays up then all of the time the bumper spent trying to extort them was basically wasted unless he has a gank crew standing by to finish the job. Likewise all of the time the freighter pilot could have spent finishing the run, manufacturing, trading, etc. is wasted because they wouldn't pay the ransom.
A situation involving a bumper and a freighter or miner is like a game of "bluff" or "chicken." "Is there a gank squad on the way. Will my friends show up in time to save me? Will they get bored soon and leave? Is the ransom they're asking worth it based on the amount of time I've been stuck here?" All questions which may have an impact on the outcome.
In addition to that the freighter pilot requires one buddy to web him into warp whereas the bumper would require several buddies to gank the freighter. It doesn't take a whole lot to have a corpmate fly alongside you as an escort. In fact it would make the freighter's trip a whole lot quicker as well.
Bumpers and gankers take advantage of the ill-prepared. Just like pirates do.
www.minerbumping.com
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1005
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Posted - 2015.04.23 21:59:24 -
[103] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote: Still not talking about ganking. You could in theory bump a freighter 23 hours per day, he wouldn't be able to do anything about it on his own. Call me crazy but that's a little off isn't it?
Then the freighter can log off, bump avoided completely, the freighter has got safely away. The only way the bumper can stop him getting away is by agressing him - If the bumper does that, he'll get concorded, and can't bump him any more, so again the freighter gets away, if he gets someone else to do it, ta da, its two players, and under your "code of ethics" thats perfectly acceptable.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
908
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Posted - 2015.04.24 06:16:29 -
[104] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Black Pedro wrote: So your equal-player-equals-balance formula only applies when you think it appropriate? I think it is unbalanced that the largest and most damage-dealing ship I can fly in highsec is unable to kill your freighter under any circumstances (except if you purposely flag yourself). That is the unbalanced situation CCP is trying to deal with for capital ships, and one way to mitigate their power is to make capital ships vulnerable to bumping (and tackling in general) by smaller ships.
Eve is a social game. Ganking a freighter takers multiple players working together. Flying a freighter (or any capital ship) safely requires the same although the single webbing ship that a freighter needs to be safe barely qualifies as cooperative play.
Still not talking about ganking. You could in theory bump a freighter 23 hours per day, he wouldn't be able to do anything about it on his own. Call me crazy but that's a little off isn't it? I am talking about ganking because is clearly violates TgerXtrm's Rule which states: "If a game mechanic requires an uneven number of players it is by definition unbalanced".
Of course I don't believe that and bumping is not unbalanced because it requires a friend to avoid.
Bumping may not be the most entertaining mechanic to ever be put into a video game, but it is one that has been with this game since practically the beginning and is an emergent one from the decisions the original game designers made. Many a capital and super-capital pilot have been pounding their desk in frustration yelling for help in comms hoping that their corpmates to come and deal with the pesky subcap pilots that are preventing them from aligning and escaping, before the tackler's fleet arrives and finishes them off. Why do highsec freighter pilots feel entitled to be made immune to one of the major weakness of capital ships?
Freighter's should not be flown solo. This vulnerability to bumping is their major (only?) downside. But the single pilot has options:
1) Call the bumpers bluff and log off. If there is no gank fleet waiting then there is nothing the bumper can actually do. Hyperdunking has increased the risk that the bumper has a few friends that may keep want your freighter in space and take a shot at you, but if you are not carrying expensive cargo they will likely move on.
2) Negotiate your way out. Eve is a social game. Bumping takes as much of the bumper's time as yours so come to an agreement where you both get to move on for a fee.
3) Call your friends or plead for help in the AG channel. Technically this isn't a solo activity, but making the initial distress call is.
You took the risk that someone would bump your capital ship when you decided to fly it unescorted so you are going to be at a disadvantage in getting out of that situation. But Eve pilots have been dealing with that for a decade. You are not entitled to engage in risky hauling (or mining, or ratting, etc.) behaviour and have a "get-out-of-PvP" button you can press to avoid the consequences of your action. If you get caught, the next step is escalation where you and the bumper both call your friends and engage in a PvP contest to save your ship as has happened countless times before.
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Sykaotic
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2015.04.24 06:41:10 -
[105] - Quote
CCP should make a video.........
Voiceover: "Eve Online is a massively multiplayer online game set 23,000 years in the future. As an elite spaceship pilot, you will explore, build, and dominate across a universe of over 7,000 star systems. Sandbox gameplay and advanced skill-based progression provide you with a truly unique experience as you rise to power among the stars."
New video shows Mach bumping over and over and over....showing how deep and dark Eve is..... maybe add in some shots of clicking poke button on FB.
LOl
Poke.... poke, poke... I am pirate.
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Siegfried Cohenberg
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2015.04.24 07:05:12 -
[106] - Quote
P3ps1 Max wrote:I guess me and you both will be waiting for the day when bumping actual applies damage to both ships. Smaller ships obviously will take more.
Do this and the new method of ganking freighters involves bumping freighters into other freighters. |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
186
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Posted - 2015.04.24 08:40:57 -
[107] - Quote
Xoceac wrote:As an almost 24/7 incursion runner, I am always on the move between incursion spawns. With my orca and bowhead pilot I move all my stuff from one spawn to another, always being targets of ganking attempts.
I never get targeted, until yesterday. I thought it was quite funny, some joker in a machariel bumping my orca out of alignment, asking for a ransom. I tried to give myself some more time by talking to him, waiting for a buddy to come with mwd battleship to bump him, so I can warp off. (Another alt with a webber didn't really help)
I got out safe.
Anything else I can do to stop this?
- Fit a MWD should be nice - Use the webber alt to get a faster warp
I will point out your first mistake may have been to announce your activities on GD if Xoceac is your Incursions pilot as you will now be 'flagged' by some people.
You must have been living in a cave if you hadn't realised this was the current 'meta' for a lot of pilots. I will give you some pointers but It's fairly common sense stuff really:
Never fly 'AFK'. Never use autopilot. Always have a second account or 'corpie' to scout ahead and/or be a 'webbing alt'. Join the 'Gank-Intel' channel to find out current problems at 'choke points'. Join the 'Anti-ganking' channel to discuss the issues etc. Try not to overfill with multi-billion cargo. Considering what you are doing this may be a problem. Be extra vigilant as high-sec choke points. Consider flying at quieter times although the other guys are flying most of the time like you. Always fit for tank where possible and never for increased cargo hold in terms of hauling ships. Any and all ships can be ganked given the reasons - 'only fly what you are willing to lose'. (Had to throw that one in!)
Regarding 'bumping' and suggestions that CCP should remove it as a game mechanic I disagree with this proposal. Certainly in the case of 'regulating' mining in asteroid belts and given the options available to miners this can be the only tactic left to deploy. It may not seem like it but miners have been given the capabilities to combat most threats to their activities nowadays. Haulage companies are not in such a favourable position though but deploying the listed advice above you can go some way to flying safer.
Hopefully this has been of some use to you.
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Exe Om
The Grand Assembly
1
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Posted - 2015.04.24 09:18:42 -
[108] - Quote
Simple Solution, Contract your goods. Never Ever buy anything with a "Hauler" design.
It is not enough that I succeed, all other must fail
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1535
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Posted - 2015.04.24 09:37:18 -
[109] - Quote
Isn't there already a threadnaught that covers this topic in C&P? I mean not sort of like it, but exactly this topic? *scratches head*
I keep a thoughtgun next to the bed, fully loaded with nerdshot. Just in case.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1098
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Posted - 2015.04.24 11:09:12 -
[110] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Isn't there already a threadnaught that covers this topic in C&P? I mean not sort of like it, but exactly this topic? *scratches head*
Indeed there is, but it is somewhat oxymoronic.
GM Karidor wrote:However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.
How can one make an effort to move systems, if one is tackled permanently and deprived of vessel control?
Oxymoronic may be harsh, the ruling is from a time when miner bumping was the big thing and moving systems a more realistic option, perhaps "dated" is a more fitting term. |
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Shai 'Hulud
192
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Posted - 2015.04.24 15:14:22 -
[111] - Quote
Milan Nantucket wrote:Brutus Utama wrote:Such a bad mechanic really its like trying to stop a van from moving by smashing a car into it.... wouldnt work in real life so should work in the game its unfair and i think they should crack down on this. Except there is no friction nor gravity in space. Smash the van with a car that has an mwd and in space, you now have Physics 1. Put a shield on them and voila it works just like ingame. I think if people are deadset on comparing real life to game they should compare apple to apples instad of apples to oranges. ^ horrible physics
First, there is friction in space. There is no air resistance in a vacuum, but friction between two objects will behave just like it does on earth (relative to the involved coefficients of friction and the amount of force pressing them together).
Second, if there is no gravity in space, how exactly do you explain planetary orbits? Gravity doesn't just turn off at the outside edge of our atmosphere...
Finally, bumps involve drastic acceleration of huge objects, which implies big forces. At best the shield would act like an air bag, spreading out the force over time. But to be clear, there is no way to avoid it ... the bumped ship undergoes acceleration so it must be subject to a force ( f = m * a ).
EVE ships basically have 100% resistance to bump damage. It's the only viable explanation.
The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.04.24 19:30:17 -
[112] - Quote
Zealous Miner wrote: So, why should the freighter pilot not be expected to bring friends of their own to break them free of the bumper?
What can the bump-ee or his friends do to shake off the bumper? In lowsec or null you (or friends) could kill it and save your stranded capital but in highsec there is very little that you (or your friends) can do once the first bump lands short of suicide ganking the bumper or wait until the gank fleet shows up to kill your stranded ship.
Webs are not an answer because once bumped a web will not help you, and no human would be interested in following a freighter around all day on the off chance that today it will be ganked since whether or not one of the hundreds of people you pass in highsec is about to bump and then gank you is really up to chance. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
910
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Posted - 2015.04.24 19:56:02 -
[113] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Zealous Miner wrote: So, why should the freighter pilot not be expected to bring friends of their own to break them free of the bumper?
What can the bump-ee or his friends do to shake off the bumper? In lowsec or null you (or friends) could kill it and save your stranded capital but in highsec there is very little that you (or your friends) can do once the first bump lands short of suicide ganking the bumper or wait until the gank fleet shows up to kill your stranded ship. Bump the bumper (or the bumped ship towards a warp point) or provide a warp target in the direction the freighter is being bumped are the simplest. The pilot could also log off and they could just watch over the freighter with ECMs and/or logi (even spawn CONCORD on it) until it disappears from space.
Mr Mieyli wrote:Webs are not an answer because once bumped a web will not help you, and no human would be interested in following a freighter around all day on the off chance that today it will be ganked since whether or not one of the hundreds of people you pass in highsec is about to bump and then gank you is really up to chance. They should be interested if they want their cargo to get from A to B safely.
If you don't have an escort and don't want to get bumped by someone then fly something that can be made un-bumpable like a MJD DST or MWD Orca. Or if you insist on flying a freighter, just be more social and bring/hire an escort like the developers intend. |
Zealous Miner
186
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Posted - 2015.04.24 20:15:09 -
[114] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:What can the bump-ee or his friends do to shake off the bumper?
Webs are not an answer because once bumped a web will not help you Webbing is a preventative, proactive measure. If you web a freighter into warp a bumper has very little time to try and catch it. The warp is near instantaneous as the freighter's maximum speed and thus 75% max speed warp requirement is substantially reduced.
Mr Mieyli wrote:and no human would be interested in following a freighter around all day on the off chance that today it will be ganked since whether or not one of the hundreds of people you pass in highsec is about to bump and then gank you is really up to chance. Then run the risk and be prepared for any potential consequences of that decision. As I have already stated:
Zealous Miner wrote:Bumpers and gankers take advantage of the ill-prepared. Just like pirates do. People don't seem to think that a giant, slow, lumbering cargo ship filled with goodies that doesn't have any direct way of defending itself from pirates and ne'er-do-wells requires some sort of escort. The ship has very many inherent weaknesses by design. It's supposed to require protection, because its only role is to ferry around large amounts of stuff people want and need.
In addition to this another way of combating a bumper is to simply fight fire with fire. Send in your own counter-bumper. Bump away the ship that's trying to pin them down. At this point webbing a freighter into warp becomes viable again as well if you have someone on stand by.
www.minerbumping.com
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Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
21086
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Posted - 2015.04.24 20:18:05 -
[115] - Quote
Zealous Miner wrote:People don't seem to think that a giant, slow, lumbering cargo ship filled with goodies that doesn't have any direct way of defending itself from pirates and ne'er-do-wells requires some sort of escort. I forgot the signature I got it from, but ...
It's like believing the lions will leave you alone ... ... when you're fat and helpless in the savanna.
Or something.
And furthermore do I doubly agree with the first part.
Quote:People don't seem to think. That describes it pretty accurately.
Jokarz > you got owned?
Chris Justice > just a bit
Chris Justice > They were pulsing smart bombs at the point we all warped in. insta death.
Lev Arturis > pervs got 59 killmails
PERVS doing lowsec DD
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.04.24 20:38:01 -
[116] - Quote
"and no human would be interested in following a freighter around all day on the off chance that today it will be ganked"
To clarify I mean that no friend or corpmate would be interested in following a freighter around all day relegating the job to an alt which means you need to pay for two accounts to prevent against one account. Sound fair in highsec? |
Paranoid Loyd
4898
|
Posted - 2015.04.24 20:43:04 -
[117] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote: I forgot the signature I got it from, but ...
Mag's quoting Destination Skillqueue
Destination SkillQueue wrote:It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.04.24 20:43:38 -
[118] - Quote
Zealous Miner wrote:
People don't seem to think that a giant, slow, lumbering cargo ship
Bumping applies in an equally frustrating way to battleships in station games during wars. There is little in situations like that one pilot can do and a second pilot to help has little effectiveness. Would some sort of module that would allow a helper to provide some assistance post-bump be a better topic for discussion?
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Kaely Tanniss
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
367
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Posted - 2015.04.24 20:57:51 -
[119] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Zealous Miner wrote:
People don't seem to think that a giant, slow, lumbering cargo ship
Bumping applies in an equally frustrating way to battleships in station games during wars. There is little in situations like that one pilot can do and a second pilot to help has little effectiveness. Would some sort of module that would allow a helper to provide some assistance post-bump be a better topic for discussion?
Nothing personal toward you...CCP made such a module...but it doesn't help when they're not used. It's called a higs anchor. It just goes to show that no matter how much CCP caves in to "help" those who complain..they still don't utilize the opportunities given to them. When will enough be enough?
If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
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Solecist Project
The Scope Gallente Federation
21106
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Posted - 2015.04.24 21:00:17 -
[120] - Quote
And you know what also helps against getting bumped?
Being webbed. It literally locks you down in place. The more, the harder it is to bump you.
Jokarz > you got owned?
Chris Justice > just a bit
Chris Justice > They were pulsing smart bombs at the point we all warped in. insta death.
Lev Arturis > pervs got 59 killmails
PERVS doing lowsec DD
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