Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Larshus Magrus
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 16:58:00 -
[61]
The Truth:
1) Changing refines up does nothing except add inflation to the economic system. Unit inflation, not price inflation. Keeping unit refines the same cause price inflation, not unit inflation (assuming there is an increasing demand for minerals). Either way, it adds up to the same thing.
2) Currently mineral prices are capped based on insurance payoffs, or from refining unlimited npc goods (shuttles for instance). If you ask me this sucks. I'm all for a free market and if someone wants to buy up every **** piece of trit, should be part of the mechanics of the game. The fact that there is an UNLIMITED supply of trit (albiet high) by refining npc bought shuttles is silly. This game has PLENTY of t1 builders. Cut the npc manufacturing way down so that t1 manufacturers can compete (this has been done in part) and so that base mineral prices are able to rise above the hard limit ceilings.
3) No one in their right mind would mine base ore out in lowsec or 0.0. Better ore is available. So why the hell would you mine lower ore? Even in crappy lowsec belts the middle ores are available. No reason the mine Veld or Scordite out there.
4) Mining in 0.0 is a total pain in the ass simply because refining is a total pain in the ass. You either need to mine around a refining station, or you need to refine at a large PoS which is extremely innefecient. It's such a main in the ass that unless you are mining zyd/mega its just not worth it time wise. Refining stations are not factory stations. So once stuff is refined its ALL gotta be hauled. Hauling the low ends sucks. No one uses freighters out in 0.0 (personally, not as a corp op) because of the risk. Hauling in empire with freighters makes moving low ends much more realistic. The point is mining low ends in lowsec/empire jsut isnt logistically feasable.
5) #4 can be fixed by implementing some kind of mobile refining platform. This was planned long ago but scrapped. IMHO some type of mobile refine ship should be brought into the game.
|
Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 16:59:00 -
[62]
Morphite and invention.
Seems we will see Morphite go up in price
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
|
Cez
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:00:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Winterblink Cez,
You've now transitioned the discussion to one where you're making insults, calling people names, and generally being condescending. You're obviously not interested in anything other than people responding to your thread in agreement with whatever point you're trying to make.
If you take the blinders off you'll see that people aren't making suggestions for you to do as a single person, or even as a single corp. The suggestions and points being discussed apply to a larger scale than you're considering, but you're too busy fishing for agreement to your opinion instead of starting a constructive discussion.
Out
Simply put... you attack me, after I was attacked by someone else... thanks. But, I wouldnt expect more from you since you obviously have a different opinion and jsut looking for a chance to stab me somewhere. I wonder why you cant follow your own beliefs and stay on topic, not sinking to a argument about insults to prove your point on this matter.
I don't care if anyone agrees or not, its a debate. If I lose to opinions that believe there isn't a problem, so be it. But I wont stand back and be insulted by you or anyone else about my opinion. Grow up.
|
Jeslik
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:01:00 -
[64]
The Dev's have said several times (in the short, short time I've been here *1 month noob*) that they want more people in low sec; One of them, in the Dev Chat Followup indicated that moving all lvl 4 mish's out of Empire was a solution he liked. So, roid depletion in Empire space would seem to me to be a positive to them.
Nox, is normally only found in ores in .7 and lower, and then only in certain geographic regions. So, in Minmatar space, it is more expensive. Like you, I have a problem paying 500isk/unit - I've been mining it in Lvl 1 Unauthorized Presence missions in empire space. My Hoarder can pull 24k of Pyro in a coupla hours while AFK, and that gives me @ 700 units of Nox. Thats enough for me to run ammo and sell some if I want; I'm just stockpiling until I'm advanced enough to actually need it.
|
Nimie
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:03:00 -
[65]
what do you mean by fun new toys? t2 or t1?
not sure if i can advertise this but i like it. http://www.eve-bay.biz/ |
Becham
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:06:00 -
[66]
Quote: Argueing with exclamation marks is pointless.
You can try to reason with them, but they just get angry and the insults fly (as above).
That's a pretty shallow thing to say. How about directing your comments to an indvidual rather than trying to paint everyone with a broad brush?
|
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:27:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Becham
Originally by: Butter Dog Argueing with exclamation marks is pointless.
You can try to reason with them, but they just get angry and the insults fly (as above).
That's a pretty shallow thing to say. How about directing your comments to an indvidual rather than trying to paint everyone with a broad brush?
Because, in the aggregate, it's true. There's a reason they banned alts in the Corporate forums - alts don't "discuss".
|
Evanda Char
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:37:00 -
[68]
I'm hoping the new regions will help address the shortage of research slots, too - even low sec stations have gone from having free ME slots a few months ago, to 20 day queues.
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc "That looks interesting... Let's nick it! |
BoinKlasik
Eye of God Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:42:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Evanda Char I'm hoping the new regions will help address the shortage of research slots, too - even low sec stations have gone from having free ME slots a few months ago, to 20 day queues.
no stations there at all
*doh, I broke my edited sig :/* *cries* this signature was lacking pink, I'll provide it for you. There. Looks better doesn't it? -Eris Fixed it for you. Oh, btw, yarr! ~kieron Didn't I tell you? The damsel moved in with me, we're having a great time. - Wrangler The damsel may not be distressed any more, but how many times does the informant have to be silenced before he gets the message? - Cortes
|
Frezik
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:43:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Cez it has nothing to do with supply and demand in the game... its about balance of the economics with what is being done out of game.
The thing that balances supply and demand is . . . supply and demand.
Quote: as in the adding of more production and bigger player base coming.
A bigger player base means more players to mine as well as more players to produce. If there are too many miners, prices will drop and some of those miners will go try something else, thus bringing the price up. If there aren't enough miners, prices will rise, and more people will want to get into mining, thus increasing supply and dropping the price.
There will be a point where there are so many players mining that the belts can't regenerate fast enough. In a totally free economy, this would show up on a graph by a huge spike in many different minerals. Now, the mineral market isn't completely free, because CCP implements price floors and ceilings through NPC buy and sell orders. Thus, at a certain price, either supply or demand is effectively infinite. Under such conditions, a shortage of roids would be noted by a price spike followed by prices sitting at the NPC price ceiling.
Looking at the year-long graphs in the Heimatar region, I see normal cyclical changes in the price of various minerals, with no indication of a roid shortage. This data will have to correlated with other regions (which Oveur seems to have already done), but it indicates that there are still areas of useful mining in empire.
Quote: Explain why people now head to 0.0 to mine common ores?
I don't know of anybody actually doing this, but if they are, they're shortsighted, to put it nicely. Besides what an analysis of market prices brings out, I myself have found a fair bit of empty areas of empire to mine. Eve is definitely more crowded than when I started 2 years ago, but they do exist.
Quote: Explain why mining rare ores is not proitable at the moment.
I'll assume you mean 'profitable'. Profit is revenue minus cost. The material costs are constant--the mining barge you bought 2 years ago can theoretically still be in use today. Other than that, mining is just about how much time you put into it.
|
|
Otellus
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:45:00 -
[71]
I do see 2 problems with mining, but that has more to do with ice than anything else, and with the feasibility of self-sustainability of 0.0 empires.
Icemining is not very profitable compared to most other areas of business, which makes it an area where mostly macrominers seem to be active. Not sure this is a good thing.
Secondly, the mining of lowends in 0.0 sec suffers from the same problem. Not very profitable, so people resort to mineral compression to get their stuff from empire, which to be honest is probably a gameflaw. Why would a 100mw MWD be only what? 10m3? when the minerals its composed of is much greater in volume.
Only thing I would like to see changed is that a few much more profitable icetypes (especcially with the various isotopes) is added to 0.0 space, and a new mining ship with very large bonuses to mining lowend roids which can only function in 0.0 space (i.e. a capital miner with say quadruple the revenue of a hulk for lowend ores only).
Beyond that, supply and demand will undoubtedly do its job.
|
Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:52:00 -
[72]
when and if you start seeing entire constelations that are mined out, then I will say there is a problem.
The minerals are out there in empire, huge amounts of them. the reason minerals keep going up and up and up is becuase more people are useng them, w/o a corrospnding increase in suppliers.
The asteroids are out there, go get them....
|
Verite Rendition
Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 18:38:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Cez
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Cez Stuff.
Stuff
Ahhh... a dev response The trend is up and up for prices... show me whats gone down?
Isogen, Megacyte and Morphite for example.
Speaking of megacyte, any word on a potential fix for the problem of megacyte's scarce usage in production compared to its ample supply? Surely it's not meant to be worth less than zyd.
Where are you located? Up in the North(i.e. Jita/Lonetrek), Megacyte is going for a good clip over Zydrine. Zydrine is nearly at historical lows at the moment with Megacyte being fairly high. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic |
Dr Mary
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 18:54:00 -
[74]
Isogen was 130-140 last year. Now its 110-120 Trit always jumps up and down. 1.7 to 2.3 Zydr used to be ~4000-4500 now its 3800-4000. This happened after 0.5 roids started to drop zydr.
Cez your problem is fake.
|
Auron Shadowbane
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:04:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Auron Shadowbane on 02/11/2006 19:14:23 what about some high-end ores in 0.0 which yield masses of lows.
something like "titanium ore" 16m¦ 200units to refine- yields 1mil trit and 100k pyerite per batch.
|
dalman
Finite Horizon
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:04:00 -
[76]
Edited by: dalman on 02/11/2006 19:08:06
Originally by: Cez Many vets can remember when prices of minerals were 1,4,16,64,264... I don't mind the free market and the flucuating of prices. However, patch after patch we have expanded Eve... more blueprints... more players... more minerals required... bigger and better things to build... and with Kali, we'll be expanding even more. Do you think to counter the expansion of Eve, we should counter with more materials that help build Eve?
No.
Since I sure remember that time, I can enlighten you about it. Let's: * remove agent missions completely. * nerf all belt-rat bounties so highest bounty is 50k. * remove insurance payouts on ships destroyed.
Then we have the same situation as when the game started and the only way to make isk is by mining minerals and sell it to NPCs at the base-price. And hence prices will be around these numbers again.
The mineral-price rise has nothing to do with the actual mining. It's all about what income in isk you get from other activties. And for anyone to mine you'll want roughly the same isk/hour from that. Hence, if we swing the nerf-bat on other activities the price of minerals will go down. Boost agent missions payouts etc and the mineral price will go up. Simple as that Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:07:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane what about some high-end ores in 0.0 which yield masses of lows.
something like "titanium ore" 16m¦ 200units to refine- yields 1mil trit and 100k pyerite per patch.
No, low ends in 0.0 come from hauler spawns in huge amounts. And yes, the volumes are large enough to rely on for large scale production.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
dalman
Finite Horizon
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:14:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane what about some high-end ores in 0.0 which yield masses of lows.
something like "titanium ore" 16m¦ 200units to refine- yields 1mil trit and 100k pyerite per patch.
No, low ends in 0.0 come from hauler spawns in huge amounts. And yes, the volumes are large enough to rely on for large scale production.
Shadowbane, go down to Stain or something and check the market. Hauler spawns as well as big ammounts of loot from NPCs makes sure there's no shortage on lows in 0.0 When I lived in stain:
Pyerite was worth roughly ~0.80 isk in Stain while it was ~3.50 isk in "empire".
Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:18:00 -
[79]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane what about some high-end ores in 0.0 which yield masses of lows.
something like "titanium ore" 16m¦ 200units to refine- yields 1mil trit and 100k pyerite per patch.
No, low ends in 0.0 come from hauler spawns in huge amounts. And yes, the volumes are large enough to rely on for large scale production.
Shadowbane, go down to Stain or something and check the market. Hauler spawns as well as big ammounts of loot from NPCs makes sure there's no shortage on lows in 0.0 When I lived in stain:
Pyerite was worth roughly ~0.80 isk in Stain while it was ~3.50 isk in "empire".
With today's logistics, prices are closer to empire cost but definitely cheaper than empire. Definitely no shortage of low ends in 0.0 :D.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Cez
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:52:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Dr Mary Isogen was 130-140 last year. Now its 110-120 Trit always jumps up and down. 1.7 to 2.3 Zydr used to be ~4000-4500 now its 3800-4000. This happened after 0.5 roids started to drop zydr.
Cez your problem is fake.
You need to look at trends... prices are heading up. You can't sit and admit over the last year they have gone down as a whole. Increasing prices is not yet a problem, but it is a bad trend that will continue (in my opinion) if a balance isn't implemented. If the devs keep handing out new production lines, minerals become more and more demanding. The only ones that benefit from this are those that can afford to pay for high demands. Yes, people can mine their life away... I'm sure they can find a belt somewhere, even head to 0.0... but that doesnt help the prices. It may help the individual miner... but what about the small prod corps/players that need to buy minerals to keep afloat? The ones that simply can't mine 2 frieghters worth every 2 weeks?
Personally I feel only bad things can arise if no action is taken, but yet if you increase refine amount 5-10% across the board, only good things can come from it. So, it pretty much boggles my mind why that balance wouldnt be done. And, those that think prices will fall come Kali... feel free to email me and say "I told you so"... but perhaps I'll be referring back to this thread a month after Kali telling you that. I won't gloat... but I've been right before The only matter that concerns me is if the HP increase significanly decreases the amount of ship losses. Then we'll see cheaper prices.
Thanks
|
|
xeom
Veto.
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:57:00 -
[81]
You have no idea what your talking about Cez. ---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
|
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:35:00 -
[82]
Originally by: xeom You have no idea what your talking about Cez.
Sounds about right.
Anyone who wants to buy over 142m units of Trit in Oursulaert from one single sell order, can do so now for the sky-dropping price of 2.20 ISK per unit. Which though on the high side, is not setting any new records on the 1-year trend graph, let alone recalling the prices reached during the L4 mission inflationary period reached early in 2005. Lowest point on graph is 1.60 ISK/unit, reached just before the macro miner *****down at the start of this year.
Pyerite shows a similar story. Its price began to resemble that of Mexallon back in the days of inflation, then experienced a long slow drop and has held steady at around 4 ISK per unit through most of the year, before rising to the current plateau of around 4.4 ISK/unit.
The Mexallon trend is a bit more weird, falling from 17 ISK/unit to 8 ISK/unit, then rising back up to 15 ISK/unit over the course of a year. It is worth noting however that this large fluctuation is around an average value that has been fairly stable.
Isogen prices have been in decline, but 125 ISK/unit to 105 ISK/unit over the course of a year is nothing to cry about, considering it was priced at around 80 ISK/unit back in summer 2004 and piked as high as 200 ISK/unit in some places less than ayear later. There is no fundamental revaluation being forced here.
Nocxium is where the anomalous distortion lies, from a very long term average of around 330 ISK/unit, to over 500 ISK/unit today. Perhaps there is increased demand due to the new toys we have been getting. As far as I am concerned, these prices are a much-needed boost to low sec mining anyway, and the 0.0 regions which were at the back of the queue when the good roids were handed out.
Zydrine, Megacyte and Morphite are pretty much where they should be. The manufacture of T1 cruisers, BCs and BS will continue to make high-end mins sought-after, and paying 3.9k, 4.4k and 14k for this stuff is nothing new in the last two and a half years. Even the effect of the new barges and mining accessories made available over time, will be offset at times by alliance mineral sales and supply disruptions resulting from large wars (or conversely, long periods of unusual calm).
I don't see any shortages. I asked an industrial guy for three tier 2 BS and a freighter last month, and there they are, reasonably priced, delivered right on time. I can't complain about that. It simply does not sound like anyone is experiencing any problems.
|
Weirda
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:37:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Cez My point... and I'll make it again... has nothing to do with supply and demand.
but...
Quote: Its the addition of more production into the game along with the increasingly growing player base in realtion to what is already set in game.
^^ that IS demand (bolded).
you calling people idiots?
@Winterblink - you are correct. Cez is nothing more then trolling. Moreso - he even trolling the big "o"'s post at this point. Sad that people actually TRYING to help point out flaw in his logic, and he still refuse to see.
__ Weirda Join QOTSA Now Stealth Bomber Tweaks |
Frezik
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:44:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Cez You need to look at trends... prices are heading up. You can't sit and admit over the last year they have gone down as a whole.
I've looked at the graphs for the past year for one fair-sized region (Heimatar). They show nothing except the normal fluctuations you get with any healthy economy. Some minerals are up, some are down. There are no noticeable trends across the board on either low-end or high-end minerals.
As far as I can tell, you're just making up data.
|
Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:51:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Cez Many vets can remember when prices of minerals were 1,4,16,64,264...
According to my manual, a single refine unit was 1,000 units of ore, and 1,000 units of Veldspar yielded a stunning 675 units of Tritanium!
This had to be mined using something called a Cu Vapor Particle Bore Stream I. (This may explain all those corkscrews littering deadspace).
Now it seems you get 3001 units. Oh, and the NPC buy orders which set those price floors have been removed with the sole exception being Tritanium.
I think we have moved on from the first build of EVE.
|
Earthan
Gallente GREY COUNCIL
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:58:00 -
[86]
not agreewd with orginal post , this is free economy and its great as it is.Specially when everybody can mine or hunt npc and refine loot for mince, hence profit/influence it.( unlike some t2 bpo...:( ) - A knight in space,war veteran,Grey Council military officer. Grey Council webpage
|
Raid
Caldari Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:19:00 -
[87]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Auron Shadowbane what about some high-end ores in 0.0 which yield masses of lows.
something like "titanium ore" 16m¦ 200units to refine- yields 1mil trit and 100k pyerite per patch.
No, low ends in 0.0 come from hauler spawns in huge amounts. And yes, the volumes are large enough to rely on for large scale production.
Shadowbane, go down to Stain or something and check the market. Hauler spawns as well as big ammounts of loot from NPCs makes sure there's no shortage on lows in 0.0 When I lived in stain:
Pyerite was worth roughly ~0.80 isk in Stain while it was ~3.50 isk in "empire".
I still have 50 million Pyerite down in 4GQ thats almost 2 years old. Anyone want to buy it? Its compressed for pre-freighter hauling..
|
thatguyinpc
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:29:00 -
[88]
Hi gang,
I just wanted to jump in and throw my 2 isk in.
In most scenarios the OP is correct, in this artificial world the Devs should consider increasing the availability of harvestable resources to keep pace with the growth of the player base.
However, IÆm of the opinion that the devs are less concerned with supply and demand (though I agree that the system is more or less working as it should with the exception of the T2 lottery) as they are watching us kill each other over the resources that are available.
The more the supplies dwindle in relation to the number of players, the more conflict/competition will arise over that supply. This I believe is by design.
OP, I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but I believe it is a reasonable answer to your question as to why supplies will not keep pace with player growth.
Guy
|
Nymos
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:29:00 -
[89]
Originally by: NATMav It doesn't cost anything to mine your own stuff.
nope, there are costs related to doing stuff yourself like mining. the cost of doing something is the profit you give up for alternative things you could do (called opportunity costs). so the cost of mining white glaze in shihuken is the most profitable thing you could have done in that time. that doesn't show directly in your wallet, but it's still less income that count as "costs".
@ OP:
the problem with a shortage of some minerals is that everyone goes for the ore that offers the best bang for the buck. mining in 0.0 on a larger scale is usually only done in good systems with rare ore because it's just too much trouble. so basically you go for crokite or bistot or something that yields the holy grail mineral "megacyte". zyd and mega are also the lowest volume mineral to move around.
a really interesting chart would be a split of sources of minerals. like: mined in empire, mined in 0.0/low-sec and especially, yielded from reprocessed mission loot. some people say they don't bother grabbing loot yet, grabbing every can that drops, the minerals from reprocessed loot are a considerable amount. unfortunately, that's a significant efforts in datamining, so don't bother with that, devs, please hehe.
the good thing of free market is that if you see an opportunity you can just take it. noone wants to mine veldspar (except chribba) and you feel trit is too highly priced? mine veldspar :). you can never have enough trit for battleship and cap ship production. the market should be happy to have farmers in empire to mine veld and scord at all.
there are enough roids and belts to mine in empire that are not mined out. plenty. or do you mean high grade ore is mined out too quickly? sure is. can't have only high grade ore though or what would the price of isogen and higher grade minerals drop to? people tend to maximize their profits after all. so high-sec omber is a quick race to mine out, then there's all the low-end ore that people don't like mining.
can you blame the market for that? what employer would you choose if two offer the same working conditions and one pays less? the more profitable one other things equal of course. also, don't forget that there's much more isk in circulation nowadays.
--
|
Ingols
|
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:33:00 -
[90]
There are two markets forces going on here.
The local market. Quantities less then say 3 million units of a low end mineral like trit, pye, mex. Little bit lower for things like Isogen, Noc, much lower for things like Zyd, Mega.
The global market. Quantities like 50m trit, 25m pye, 10m mex etc .... Huge numbers that don't often hit the market boards but are traded by arrangements on the mineral channel.
The global market tends to sell and buy at premiums. I guess because there is a certain value for being able to pick up 100m trit all at one place.
Other then that, I see alot of hording going on for pre-kali reasons. I have a huge position in minerals right now because I anticipate an ever increasing demand for minerals for the new Tier 3 Battleships.
I know people buying BS at 10% of less premiums in anticipation of refining them down for minerals.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |