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corbexx
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1317
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Posted - 2015.04.25 00:34:31 -
[1] - Quote
So I've had some one ask for me to look in to how we can try to increase pvp in the higher class wormholes and who was also worried that I was spending to much time sorting pve out for w space.
Firstly I'm still of the opinion that better pve and increasing getting people in to space is the way to increase pvp. The lower class wormholes have all done better since the pve changes along with dual statics of C4.
The biggest issue I see with pvp in C5 and C6 is that its a player driven issue, not mechanics. Atleast to me, the biggest issue is all the grouping up, which then leads to a vicious circle. Oh they teamed up, we wont fight them, their bound to have friends this time again. etc etc
I've spoke to a couple people who are much better at player behaviour and theyall agree this is incrediby hard to change, if its even possible at all.
What I'd like is suggestions on how we could maybe increase pvp in the higher class wormholes.
Hidden fremen has already asked some people in his corp and he's sent me a list of some ideas, some admittingly controversial.
I'll list them below and keep this updated as more people suggest ideas.
Ideals from Hidden Fremen and Lazerhawks
Rewarding PvP active corps (harder to evict). Some Incursion-esque home system bonus. Mass:spawn range when jumping wormholes kills small corp PvP tactics. True. Increases non-consensual PvP, but decreases consensual. Getting podded into k-space and not in your WH home makes people more risk-averse. Controversial. Give wormholes stargate treatment in that they appear on overview; no scanning needed. VERY controversial. Reducing the number of wormholes. This would obviously increase encounters between players.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Garr Khan
Phoenicians
52
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Posted - 2015.04.25 00:38:38 -
[2] - Quote
Wormhole space, but ESPECIALLY C5/C6 space needs more participation by major nullsec entities wishing to establish Wormhole groups; those are the guys who will really bring the pew without the jew (as we see with so many of the stagnant 'major WH corps' littering high-class wormholes these days). |
Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1177
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Posted - 2015.04.25 00:45:48 -
[3] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Rewarding PvP active corps (harder to evict). Some Incursion-esque home system bonus.
part of the problem is that people clump hard because they
a) just want to win
or
b) don't want to get evicted
Giving home system bonus would only increase the fortress mentality.
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1178
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Posted - 2015.04.25 00:46:50 -
[4] - Quote
also lol asking lazerhawks for advice on anything other than batphoning
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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corbexx
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1317
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Posted - 2015.04.25 00:50:22 -
[5] - Quote
Andrew Jester wrote:also lol asking lazerhawks for advice on anything other than batphoning
It was Hidden Fremen who came to me (well he spoke to Sugar who passed it on to me) saying it needed looking at, so I asked for suggestions.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Aderoth Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2015.04.25 00:58:18 -
[6] - Quote
I think that the difference between C1-C4 PvE tactics and C5/C6 PvE tactics are obvious. C1-C4 the optimal isk/hr is made by farming your static whereas with C5/C6 you farm your home hole sites to maximize escalations.
Why does this matter? The process of securing a static wormhole in C1-C4s for PvE necessarily involves dealing with locals, scanning sigs, setting pickets on whs that cant't be closed, etc. C5-C6 PvE operations, on the other hand, are as safe as it gets once the static and wanderings/k162s have been crushed.
Encourage static farming in C5/C6s problem solved. |
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics K162
106
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Posted - 2015.04.25 01:09:54 -
[7] - Quote
the null entities are already in wh's, at fanfest I herd nothing other than oh you live in wh's "I love my wh me and a friend pulled out xxx billion isk in 6 months" I bought my super/titans with it.
null players are perfectly happy to repeatedly and relentlessly shoot red crosses until there are no more left or right up till the point some one disturbs them.
Its done on alts, and its primarily an activity to fund them in other parts of the game, some people say "But at least there's some one there!" Well great, but they dont really live there the other 22 hours or so of the day. content wise ganking caps in a site which has no sub cap support is really pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel.
If one looks at qex they can see it can really be done with as little as 10 chars, quite how you need a coalition and fleet of 10+ logi & 60+ t3's to do the same job I really dont know.
Changing player behaviour is a hard one, probably the hardest aspect of the task your setting out to do.
In some eyes some groups arn't considered pvp groups because they allegedly dont kill enough, Yet if there's no targets in there there statics or chains and rolling provides nothing but a barren logged off landscape, whose fault is that?
Its become necessary to roam null now to provide additional content or access to other people doing things that I can poke with a stick, No single entity can rely on people being in there static or chain any more to gaurenty enough stuff is happening to keep there corp activity ticking over.
Perhaps taking a few null exits from the c5's and giving them to the c6's might be in Order?
I hate the Idea of wh generators, but what about something like you dump lots of blue books in a thing and it spawns a new random c6/c5 null wh, The more you dump in there the longer it lasts, "48 hour maximum time" and if its a sucky null, SUX2BEU
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Turd Destroyer
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
2
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Posted - 2015.04.25 01:18:09 -
[8] - Quote
Dual statics for high class space. Look at the boon it has been for c4 space. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
950
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Posted - 2015.04.25 01:33:17 -
[9] - Quote
Aderoth Anstian wrote:I think that the difference between C1-C4 PvE tactics and C5/C6 PvE tactics are obvious and the prime reason why the PvP is so much different. C1-C4 the optimal isk/hr is made by farming your static whereas with C5/C6 you farm your home hole sites to maximize escalations.
Why does this matter? The process of securing a static wormhole in C1-C4s for PvE necessarily involves dealing with locals, scanning sigs, setting pickets on whs that cant't be closed, etc. C5-C6 PvE operations, on the other hand, are as safe as it gets once the static and wanderings/k162s have been crushed.
Encourage static farming in C5/C6s problem solved.
If by encourage you mean to give an isk encentive for completing a site, then truly this will only work to encourage c5/c6 space to further increase corp/alliance size. It's the larger corps that are having difficulty finding good fights in wh space. Incentivising static farming and allowing wh corps to support even larger numbers will have the opposite effect than Hidden Freemen is looking for.
Instead of 5 large wh entities that are too big for me to effectively engage, there will be be 5 way way large wh entities that are too big for me to effectively engage.
WH mass constraints are what limits what we can do and what we can't do. You can't have an epic fight in wh space w/out batphoning, rage rolling and seeding. That's because you can only get so much through a wh before it collapses. Encouraging static farming isn't going to change that. Rolling back the mass/range thing will probably have a positive effect as it will allow folks to once again put a triage carrier on or through a wh against larger numbers. Though since the higgs rigs, the only cap I've seen rolling a wh has been Hidden Freemen himself in his nano moros (he had that thing gong over 320 km/sec - ok not that fast, but it was deffo faster than a moros should be allowed to go).
I don't think 'more is better' is going to solve any pvp issues in wh space. The only more is better option is maybe creating c7 wh and putting some liberal mass limits on c7 to c7 connections so the guys that like to be in big wh corps and like be fights in wh space can have a place to go. I think then we would quickly sort out the large wh corps and see which ones really want to fight big and which ones just want to be 'to big to fail' Honestly, I'd love to follow that sort of wh drama. (no supers in c7 though - that would be obviously broken)
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GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics K162
106
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Posted - 2015.04.25 01:34:43 -
[10] - Quote
Turd Destroyer wrote:Dual statics for high class space. Look at the boon it has been for c4 space.
Had thought about this, what about 1 static as per normal, but also one random connection c5/6 - c1/6, but ls/null/hs to spawn as per normal.
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JeRaadtHetNooit
C0DE.. Shadow Politics
2
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Posted - 2015.04.25 01:41:18 -
[11] - Quote
Aderoth Anstian wrote:
Encourage static farming in C5/C6s problem solved.
Remove capital escalation farming from home sites
Get some other crap in return to make farming you static c5/c6 profitable
I dislike the idea's you got so far |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
4379
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Posted - 2015.04.25 01:44:49 -
[12] - Quote
it's really easy. you take all the 300man groups, make them into 50-100 man groups and remove all their blues.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Tim Nering
R3d Fire
48
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Posted - 2015.04.25 02:15:43 -
[13] - Quote
i never realized this was a problem. i always did what the chain allowed. if its dead, lets jew it up, if its active lets try and fight stuff. if its too active maybe roll that part away.
the best pvp part about high class wormholes to be is that i get a ton of nulls and i just use those to pvp in. i really dislike the blobs i gotta fight but whatever makes me better anyways.
in wormholes i usually am ganking someone or arranging a fight with another corp. telling them what i got, and they telling me what they got. idk i love this. its refreshing.
like you said, this is a total player behavior problem and i wouldnt try to fix it. wahh wahhhh wormholes are so dead there is no high class pvp wahhh wahhh. meanwhile that person maybe scans 10 wormholes a week. just go scan and find the action. i hate the whining omfg....
PvP active corps (harder to evict). Some Incursion-esque home system bonus. No! you cant control wormholes! that's the point! they are unpredictable and dangerous remember? i like the idea that my home system is trying to kill me and forcing me to adapt my fittings so i dont die. i get free links if i pvp? its just guna be exploited and farmed up with alts or something. wrong wrong wrong wrong.
side note: during the very vague structure presentation that was very vague and vagueness. something was said about a structure that controls wormhole spawn rates? NO! you cant do that! wormholes are unpredictable and random, and sleepers are scary and spooky and all that. why can players control their ratting safety by reducing the number and crazed wormholers that come out of it?!
spawn range when jumping wormholes kills small corp PvP tactics. True. Increases non-consensual PvP, but decreases consensual. no comment. everything has already been said about this. i dont care either way. sure would be nice to just jump the carrier back.
podded into k-space and not in your WH home makes people more risk-averse. Controversial. a huge part of sieging tactics revolves around this but outside out that getting podded isnt the worst thing. if ur scanning this isnt an issue. but that is a big quality of life improvement. i dont hate it.
wormholes stargate treatment in that they appear on overview; no scanning needed. VERY controversial. no.
the number of wormholes. This would obviously increase encounters between players. back in the wormhole changes ccp said that increasing connections increases content.. is that not true anymore? i dont mind scanning at all. i like having lots of connections, gives me a lot of options. maybe c3s today, maybe marauder sites in the static, maybe pvp our neighbors, maybe roaming nullsec. idk.
someone once told me that in order to get pvp sometimes u gotta force it. put a tower down in their system, shoot their structures, they CTA u go fight em, take ur tower down and gf m80s. and like i said before if you find a group u know well you can pvp them and set up a fight for the fun of you both.
really i dont see this pvp problem. maybe im just slow. but i... i really dont see it. lazy ppl will be lazy and whine and then burnout and then quit. |
Brain Eater
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.04.25 02:33:01 -
[14] - Quote
By not making it a renter empire run by a giant blob of people who pretend they aren't friends and share accounts. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1280
|
Posted - 2015.04.25 03:22:34 -
[15] - Quote
If you are looking for concepts here are a few...
It was suggested that the wormhole star gate treatment.. I would say no.. Except for frigate sized holes. Those might as well be shown on the sig screen as we hate probing them, and hate more using them. Least you could readily transit frigate holes without the need for a probe launcher theoretically. It's a odd idea that affects all space with visible frig holes.
We need a way to swap clones in wspace. If I can swap my slave or virtu set clone for something else, that'd be great.
The shattered need more uses. I'm at the point that maybe the shattered large holes should provide more statics into c5 and c6 space. I still rarely see them. They should be the primary farming targets for c5 and c6 space. The shattered wormholes need to matter more. I am almost tempted to say that a new material should be added to t3's which are only obtainable in shattered wormholes. Yes it could potentially redo t3 production, make them more rare as they require a material that comes out of one of 100 systems. The frig holes matter more for smaller industrialists. They need to matter more, and there needs to be more access.
Give the players the ability to choose if they want two statics in their home system (or three statics in c2 and c4 space). Come up with something. Some structure or deployable that generates a second static for your group on regular intervals. I'd even give people a pve incentive and say that this device will generate more pve sites on a regular basis. Only works if the below is a possibility.
We need a way to deal with people critting their holes. It's hard to eat the Bears if they crit their hole to the point a venture will collapse it. We have the ability to increase our mass. We should have the ability to reduce a groups total mass. Maybe make the heavy interdictor have a new bubble script that reduces the mass of everybody in its effective range (similar to how it reduces the mass of the hic). See a crit hole, scout says "there doing sites". Bring the heavy int with the script and your 20 t3's. Activate script. Everybody jumps through the hole with the effective size of a shuttle or pod. On the return. Heavy int does the same thing. If worried about the frigate sized wormholes, put a ship type cap on it. This is more of an ability idea than anything else.
How to increase the type and variety of fights? Make it so that if someone doesn't fight, you can disable or despawn their sites. So now they can't farm either. We do that with the ess. Don't fight. We blow up your ess.
Yaay!!!!
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1179
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Posted - 2015.04.25 04:17:32 -
[16] - Quote
glad no one is holding back the dumb ideas itt
if you want ideas of what NOT to do, then read this thread
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Sith1s Spectre
Un.Reasonable Un.Bound
1336
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Posted - 2015.04.25 04:19:58 -
[17] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:it's really easy. you take all the 300man groups, make them into 50-100 man groups and remove all their blues.
This.
I mean what's the point in even committing a significant fleet to fight one of them when there's almost a certainty that they have one or two other groups lined up to come dunk you.
Tie that in with all the farming holes (because it's currently the most efficient way to make isk in WH space in the high end holes) and you have your answer of why it is why it is.
Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
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Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
635
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Posted - 2015.04.25 05:36:10 -
[18] - Quote
- change site-spawning/escalation mechanics to encourage PvEing outside of the hole you live, should include farms and expos - allow clone-swapping in the hole - fix the nightmare of corp roles, ship security and living out of POS (=> enables more recruiting, influx of people of who currently held back by it)
btw all five of those suggestions listed by OP are absolutely **** and would make the problem even worse, make sure sugar knows that, I wish we had a WH CSM to care of this crap...
W-Space Realtor
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
4385
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Posted - 2015.04.25 05:55:29 -
[19] - Quote
Also, GET FKED making wh appear on overview without scanning. Seriously, GET FKED.
There is no Bob.
Stuck In Here With Me: http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe: http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1180
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Posted - 2015.04.25 06:04:29 -
[20] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Also, GET FKED making wh appear on overview without scanning. Seriously, GET FKED. tell me how you really feel
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
290
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Posted - 2015.04.25 07:10:02 -
[21] - Quote
Capital escalation in home system need a heavy nerf. A very heavy nerf. Its the sole reason why c5/6 space is stagnant. The reason dual static is so successful for c4 is because we need them to make isk. In a c5/6 you dont need your chains to make isk. In lower classes people have most chains open all the time which basicly leads to more people finding eachother and interacting. So to remove the blue loot from the escalation waves and increase the blue loot in the 2nd+ wave in anoms (and make them harder so you cant solo marauder c5/6 anoms)
~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
.ORLY is recruiting
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Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
151
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Posted - 2015.04.25 07:10:51 -
[22] - Quote
People not being riskaverse ****heads and playing the game for fun and thrills would be the simple solution, but well... The escalationsystem doesn-¦t help at all where the best status of your system is "locked down" with all possile doors closed and not even a door back home needed. And crit is pretty much the same as closed unless you are able to pull a suitcase off.
But I really think the big problem is in shipbalancing: dreads with even just one or two lokis can blab anything and armor T3s are just so much better than anything else and with the ewarboni esp on scram and webrange makes them even stonger against most doctrines. Add to that the static nature of wormholefights and maybe triagecarrers and you get what we have now. Armor being better than shields in larger scales outside of a pulsar, shieldbuffer being a joke against dreads and the drawback of slowness not mattering with lots of bonused ewar and static battlegrounds also isn-¦t helpful. If dreads had a harder time hitting smaller stuff, maybe even be it via special fittingmods, and battleships with their high mass were able to beat T3s with lower numbers (I-¦m thinking about things like the NM, Vindi or Bhaal, who on paper have good boni to combat cruisers). You can fit 30+ cruisers through most holes, but not 30+ BS. Ofc this would create problems with BS <> all other ships in k-space where mass doesn-¦t matter. But if you had some doctrines, maybe other classes of BS, who execll at fighting the ani-cruiser BS-fleets there wouldn-¦t be a win-it -all fleetcomp but counters for everything. Unless you just bring 2 fleets to fight against one in your homesystem, but there is no way to prevent that. Also eve has more than 3 types of ships so it would not be that easy. |
Newt BlackCompany
BlackCompany Personal Corp
39
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Posted - 2015.04.25 07:15:51 -
[23] - Quote
What about an anchorable module that would add an extra static to your hole? Maybe you can anchor 2-3 of these modules in your home to increase connections? Maybe even let people select the type of static created? Not HS/LS tho.
Make it expensive and destructible, so they don't litter WH space.
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1181
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Posted - 2015.04.25 07:17:36 -
[24] - Quote
WH generation modules the dream~
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Bleedingthrough
Project AIice
164
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Posted - 2015.04.25 07:46:45 -
[25] - Quote
It is the same old story that has been told in so many different ways already and it boils down to: capital escalations.
For me they are **** because they encourage a playstyle I dislike and think is harmful for PvP. Eve is a social game and you donGÇÖt need to be a genius to figure out that a mechanic that encourages isolating yourselves from the rest of eve for 4 consecutive nights might not be a good thing. Take a look at the groups that moved into lower class WHs for exactly this reason. Generating income from statics is actually fun and creates lots of content.
I am all for getting rid of capital escalation mechanics and slightly buff full clears. This could potentially incentivize running statics sites and statics are a more balanced battlefield than in someoneGÇÖs home fortress.
Also the spawn distance mechanic change has been a mediocre choice by CCP. It does make rolling more frustrating while not creating much meaningful content. More importantly it makes it very difficult to fight outnumbered.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5305080#post5305080
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
266
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Posted - 2015.04.25 08:10:37 -
[26] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Getting podded into k-space and not in your WH home makes people more risk-averse. Controversial.
Imho this is an important issue. I think many people would engage more readily if they didn't end up in k-space, but in their own POS.
As a compromise, people who choose to set their medical clone to their POS could end up in a sort of stasis (for say half an hour or so) after being podded to balance home advantage ...
A clone swapping POS mod would be pretty awesome too btw :>
Turd Destroyer wrote:Dual statics for high class space. Look at the boon it has been for c4 space.
This.
Jack Miton wrote:it's really easy. you take all the 300man groups, make them into 50-100 man groups and remove all their blues.
And this.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2000
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Posted - 2015.04.25 08:17:58 -
[27] - Quote
Ab'del Abu wrote:As a compromise, people who choose to set their medical clone to their POS could end up in a sort of stasis (for say half an hour or so) after being podded to balance home advantage ... This sounds like an excellent way for CCP to get people to log out of their game.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
266
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Posted - 2015.04.25 08:25:47 -
[28] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Ab'del Abu wrote:As a compromise, people who choose to set their medical clone to their POS could end up in a sort of stasis (for say half an hour or so) after being podded to balance home advantage ... This sounds like an excellent way for CCP to get people to log out of their game.
Yipp :>
In some cases I'd rather log out and/or wait half an hour than get myself back into system. Wouldn't be surprised if other people felt the same. |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
266
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Posted - 2015.04.25 08:37:28 -
[29] - Quote
Some more food for thought:
On average, less than 5% of all active characters are in w-space, yet w-space makes up for a third of all systems in EVE. Maybe Anokis is too big.
An activity index for systems could be used in order to increase the probability of active holes to connect with each other. I'm sure Bob would want that |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1167
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Posted - 2015.04.25 09:09:06 -
[30] - Quote
I'm also for dual statics, every wormhole should have them to be honest.
Remove capital escalations and adjust regular site ISK so it's at least profitable and worth running in the shiny ships that it would require.
Lower class space income should also be boosted, tried a few C2 sites and 12m/site is pretty awful considering the difficulty.
Make data and relic cans (not talocans) worth something again. |
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