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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
493
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Posted - 2015.04.25 20:37:52 -
[1] - Quote
The Orthrus is unquestionable one if not *the* single most powerful ship in the game right now, however I want to suggest something very modest.
Old Bonuses Caldari Cruiser: 20% to Missile damage per level
Gallente Cruiser: 10% to point range per level
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to missile velocity 50% penalty to missile flight time
New Bonuses Caldari Cruiser: 10% to Missile damage per level
Gallente Cruiser: 10% to point range per level
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to missile velocity 50% penalty to missile flight time 25% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire per level
Why? What this does it keeps the DPS for Hams + HMLs almost idenitcal to what we have now, and RLML *paper* DPS will be the same, but the damage per clip will be 7.5 effective clips instead of 10 effective clips, and it will need to reload sooner. This has the added benefit of making the Orthrus more appealing for new players like the Worm/Gila by giving a large portion of the damage bonuses into the ship hull itself.
Old Orthrus: 10 Effective Launchers (5 x 100%), 10 Effective RLML Clips (5 * 2). (40320 Damage before needing to reload, NOT INCLUDING DRONES, with 3x BCUs and Fury Missiles) New Orthrus: 10 Effective Launchers (5 x 1.33 (R.O.F) x 1.5 (Damage)) 7.5 Effective RLML Clips (5 * 1.5) (30240 Damage before needing to reload, NOT INCLUDING DRONES, with 3x BCUs and Fury Missiles)
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Mizhir
Matari Exodus
74277
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Posted - 2015.04.25 20:51:24 -
[2] - Quote
The 20% bonus to damage pr level is way too strong for RLML. Great suggestion.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
647
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Posted - 2015.04.25 21:05:48 -
[3] - Quote
And if we could just ditch all this rapid nonsense and make medium short and long range missiles useful, we wouldn't need to change a thing.
So I would propose to change the explosion velocity of hams to 175m/s and for heany missiles to 250m/s.
It will be my last proposal that I make for missiles.
Either they change it or I will.
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Jayne Fillon
651
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Posted - 2015.04.26 00:58:21 -
[4] - Quote
I've tossed this into the relevant CSM channel. I agree with your logic.
The response will probably be NDA, but hey. Keep up the good work.
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4367
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Posted - 2015.04.26 01:46:29 -
[5] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:The Orthrus is unquestionable one if not *the* single most powerful ship in the game right now, however I want to suggest something very modest. Great. Can we fix the Barghest too while we're at it?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Jayne Fillon
651
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Posted - 2015.04.26 01:53:49 -
[6] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Suitonia wrote:The Orthrus is unquestionable one if not *the* single most powerful ship in the game right now, however I want to suggest something very modest. Great. Can we fix the Barghest too while we're at it? What about the Barghest
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7914
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Posted - 2015.04.26 02:37:43 -
[7] - Quote
FYI: 25% bonus to rate-of-fire = 33% increase in damage.
You have actually BUFFED the Orthrus.
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
614
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Posted - 2015.04.26 02:48:45 -
[8] - Quote
What makes them too powerful is the combination of speed + point range. Ships that get a point bonus should not also be faster than nearly every other ship in the class. The Ares is only 180 m/s faster than a Garmur with MWDs active and it's an interceptor. If I'm not mistaken the Dramiel is the only non-interceptor frigate that can catch a Garmur.
The Orthrus is the same thing. Fight a cruiser that isn't a Cynabal or Vagabond and you dance to victory or warp out if you can't tank your opponent.
Reducing the clip size will only make them take longer to kill their targets. At best some targets will force the Mordus ship to warp off. It won't actually give those targets a chance at a kill.
There are all our dominion
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
498
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Posted - 2015.04.26 03:01:18 -
[9] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:FYI: 25% bonus to rate-of-fire = 33% increase in damage. You have actually BUFFED the Orthrus.
No it's the same DPS
5 Missile Launchers multiplied by 1.33x (Rate of fire) is 6.66 effective missile launchers, Multiplied by 1.5x (Level 5 Caldari Cruiser) brings that up to 9.99 Effective launchers, or effectively the same as what we have now. 10 Effective Launchers.
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Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
498
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Posted - 2015.04.26 03:04:18 -
[10] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:What makes them too powerful is the combination of speed + point range. Ships that get a point bonus should not also be faster than nearly every other ship in the class. The Ares is only 180 m/s faster than a Garmur with MWDs active and it's an interceptor. If I'm not mistaken the Dramiel is the only non-interceptor frigate that can catch a Garmur.
The Orthrus is the same thing. Fight a cruiser that isn't a Cynabal or Vagabond and you dance to victory or warp out if you can't tank your opponent.
Reducing the clip size will only make them take longer to kill their targets. At best some targets will force the Mordus ship to warp off. It won't actually give those targets a chance at a kill.
I am 100% not debating that the Orthrus is incredibly powerful and in my opinion, by far, the most oppresive ship in the current meta. I just want to suggest a Chisel, into what could hopefully be several, small Chisels at the Orthrus' power level.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
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Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
419
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Posted - 2015.04.26 03:12:18 -
[11] - Quote
Surprisingly reasonable idea, given the ship (and the fact that this is FaiD). +1 from me
Though honestly I think RLMLs should be rebalanced since they seem to cause so many issues. |
Mario Putzo
1222
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Posted - 2015.04.26 04:09:32 -
[12] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:FYI: 25% bonus to rate-of-fire = 33% increase in damage. You have actually BUFFED the Orthrus. No it's the same DPS 5 Missile Launchers multiplied by 1.33x (Rate of fire) is 6.66 effective missile launchers, Multiplied by 1.5x (Level 5 Caldari Cruiser) brings that up to 9.99 Effective launchers, or effectively the same as what we have now. 10 Effective Launchers.
This wont make much sense to people so here is maths.
100(BaseD)*2.0(LVL5DMGMOD)/10(BaseROF) = 20DPS 100(BaseD)*1.5(LVL5DMGMOD)/7.5(25%ROF) = 20DPS
In all aspects they share the same period of 0 effective DPS during reloads. Which effectively means the damage output will remain the same.
Impact on RLMLs however will be neglible as spewing their load faster only facilitates the ability to blast through rep cycles that much easier.
IMHO there is nothing wrong with the Othrus, just as there is nothing wrong with RLMLs
While the premise in design is correct, I must -1 the idea since the capacity to dunk these ships exists in several varieties already, and many many ships (including frigs) can handle RLMLs. I recommend spending less time using your talents finding nerfs for things, and use them to design ships capable of combating them.
(Fun fact, 10mn D3s wreck Orthrus, unfortunately they were actually OP in other areas and had to be nerfed a bit...still a viable counter though all be it taking a bit longer having to sacrifice damage output for speed and tank.)
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4367
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Posted - 2015.04.26 04:29:25 -
[13] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:What about the Barghest The Navy Raven, Golem, Typhoon and Fleet Typhoon all perform better despite the Barghest having 9.375% more raw DPS. This is due to the lack of damage application bonuses. In fact, the Barghest is only marginally better than the Raven and Rattlesnake. Outside of rapid heavy missile launchers, that is.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University Amarr Empire
102
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Posted - 2015.04.26 06:06:51 -
[14] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Suitonia wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:FYI: 25% bonus to rate-of-fire = 33% increase in damage. You have actually BUFFED the Orthrus. No it's the same DPS 5 Missile Launchers multiplied by 1.33x (Rate of fire) is 6.66 effective missile launchers, Multiplied by 1.5x (Level 5 Caldari Cruiser) brings that up to 9.99 Effective launchers, or effectively the same as what we have now. 10 Effective Launchers. This wont make much sense to many people so here is supporting maths. 100(BaseD)*2.0(LVL5DMGMOD)/10(BaseROF) = 20DPS 100(BaseD)*1.5(LVL5DMGMOD)/7.5(25%ROF) = 20DPS In all aspects they share the same period of 0 effective DPS during reloads. Which effectively means the damage output will remain the same. Impact on RLMLs however will be neglible as spewing their load faster only facilitates the ability to blast through rep cycles that much easier. IMHO there is nothing wrong with the Othrus, just as there is nothing wrong with RLMLs While the premise in design is correct, I must -1 the idea since the capacity to dunk these ships exists in several varieties already, and many many ships (including frigs) can handle RLMLs. I recommend spending less time using your talents finding nerfs for things, and use them to design ships capable of combating them. (Fun fact, 10mn D3s wreck Orthrus, unfortunately they were actually OP in other areas and had to be nerfed a bit...still a viable counter though all be it taking a bit longer having to sacrifice damage output for speed and tank.)
People often fail to do that whole "counter build" thing, even though its reasonable. That said, the Orthrus is still wildly powerful, and we need some dulling of the pointy sticks.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4367
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Posted - 2015.04.26 06:35:19 -
[15] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:That said, the Orthrus is still wildly powerful, and we need some dulling of the pointy sticks. No, there's been enough dulling of late. There are plenty of other ships in dire need of a rebalance, so my recommendation would be to start there.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Mario Putzo
1224
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Posted - 2015.04.26 07:41:37 -
[16] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote: People often fail to do that whole "counter build" thing, even though its reasonable. That said, the Orthrus is still wildly powerful, and we need some dulling of the pointy sticks.
I will continue to disagree with this.
Lets look at some other Pirate Cruisers.
The Stratios. 600+ DPS, 70K EHP Tank, Cov Ops Cloak, Scanning Bonuses The Phantasam 600DPS+ 40K EHP Tank,100mn AB
Both of these ships produce more DPS than even a HAM Orthrus, with better tanks, Both of these ships are capable of countering Orthrus at ITS Range (Phantasm with Beams, Stratios with Drones) OR The Orthrus is out of its point Range applying DPS in which case both can leave.
This isn't even getting started on the vast array of ships that have similar strengths and weaknesses at the T1 level (cruisers) let alone the T2 level (Frigs/Dessies/Cruisers) or the T3 Level (Dessies/Cruisers) or the BC level.
Yes the Orthrus is a great ship, it is very good at finding and holding prey, and in many cases the unprepared (aka specifically targeted) prey get destroyed. This is what hunter ships are very good at doing. In a situation where an Orthrus is exposed to any risk I can think of a dozen Cruiser and under ships that can take it on and walk away.
FYI Phantasm is the hard counter to Orthrus. It reduced is applied DPS by more than half, it is faster with an AB than the Orthrus.
Orthrus is not OP or wildly powerful. It has a niche use, and it is very good in that role. In almost all other cases it is just a ship...
And this of course is ignoring entirely that EVE is not a solo game, and looking at stuff in a vacuum is stupid.
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Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
419
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Posted - 2015.04.26 07:54:23 -
[17] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: People often fail to do that whole "counter build" thing, even though its reasonable. That said, the Orthrus is still wildly powerful, and we need some dulling of the pointy sticks.
I will continue to disagree with this. Lets look at some other Pirate Cruisers. The Stratios. 600+ DPS, 70K EHP Tank, Cov Ops Cloak, Scanning Bonuses The Phantasam 600DPS+ 40K EHP Tank,100mn AB Both of these ships produce more DPS than even a HAM Orthrus, with better tanks, Both of these ships are capable of countering Orthrus at ITS Range (Phantasm with Beams, Stratios with Drones) OR The Orthrus is out of its point Range applying DPS in which case both can leave. This isn't even getting started on the vast array of ships that have similar strengths and weaknesses at the T1 level (cruisers) let alone the T2 level (Frigs/Dessies/Cruisers) or the T3 Level (Dessies/Cruisers) or the BC level. Yes the Orthrus is a great hunter ship, it is very good at finding and holding prey, and in many cases the unprepared (aka specifically targeted) prey get destroyed. This is what hunter ships are very good at doing. In a situation where an Orthrus is exposed to any risk I can think of a dozen Cruiser and under ships that can take it on and walk away. FYI Phantasm is the hard counter to Orthrus. It reduced is applied DPS by over 70%, it is faster with an AB than the Orthrus with MWD. Orthrus is not OP or wildly powerful. It has a niche use, and it is very good in that role. In almost all other cases it is just a ship... And this of course is ignoring entirely that EVE is not a solo game, and looking at stuff in a vacuum is stupid.
The problem with this is that the Orthrus has a fantastic ability to choose its engagements and can simply avoid players in ships that pose an inherent threat to it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but some trade-offs for that potential wouldn't be unwarranted.
Personally I think OP's suggestion is a fantastic incremental balance tweak to the ship, and just the sort of thing CCP like to do to adjust a ship's performance, especially if RLML performance on this ship is a problem area. |
Mario Putzo
1236
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Posted - 2015.04.26 14:26:29 -
[18] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote: The problem with this is that the Orthrus has a fantastic ability to choose its engagements and can simply avoid players in ships that pose an inherent threat to it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but some trade-offs for that potential wouldn't be unwarranted.
Personally I think OP's suggestion is a fantastic incremental balance tweak to the ship, and just the sort of thing CCP like to do to adjust a ship's performance, especially if RLML performance on this ship is a problem area.
Every ship in the game has the ability to pick and choose its engagements. The only notable exceptions to this are
A) A covops cloaking ship sneaks up on you B) A Combat Recon ship sneaks up on you.
For everything else there is DSCAN available in space all the time. See something you don't like, warp away. See something you do like. Look for a fight.
In regards to RLMLs, yes the Orthrus can make good use of them. Of course any ship with an AB is also going to reduce the incoming DPS by roughly half since it doesn't get an application bonus, and ya you might not ever be able to catch the Orthrus yourself, but with AB you can buy time to call in back up because EVE is not a solo game, and the best ship to use in every situation is friendship.
The Orthrus and RLMLs (in general) are situationally good, and situationally terrible. Neither is an end all be all in combat effectiveness, both have their counters hard and soft, and both counter other things hard and soft.
That my friend is balance. |
Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static Gone Critical
17
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Posted - 2015.04.26 15:04:58 -
[19] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Suitonia wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:FYI: 25% bonus to rate-of-fire = 33% increase in damage. You have actually BUFFED the Orthrus. No it's the same DPS 5 Missile Launchers multiplied by 1.33x (Rate of fire) is 6.66 effective missile launchers, Multiplied by 1.5x (Level 5 Caldari Cruiser) brings that up to 9.99 Effective launchers, or effectively the same as what we have now. 10 Effective Launchers. This wont make much sense to many people so here is supporting maths. Current :100(BaseD)*2.0(LVL5DMGMOD)/10(BaseROF) = 20DPS Proposed: 100(BaseD)*1.5(LVL5DMGMOD)/7.5(25%ROF) = 20DPS In all aspects they share the same period of 0 effective DPS during reloads. Which effectively means the damage output will remain the same. Impact on RLMLs however will be neglible as spewing their load faster only facilitates the ability to blast through rep cycles that much easier. Didnt you just do the math? the DPS will be the exact same even if its spewing the RLML faster.
The impact should be quite good since the effective damage an orthrus can deal will be lowered by 25% with RLML before it needs to reload.
Note that the RLML on an orthrus is atm insane as it has perfect application to any cruiser (and probably to most destroyers as well) or larger in a 63km radius. The HAM version which deals about the same DPS has about 30km range and will not apply perfectly to cruisers all while the RLML also requires less PWG and CPU than the HAMs. |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep
501
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Posted - 2015.04.26 16:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: People often fail to do that whole "counter build" thing, even though its reasonable. That said, the Orthrus is still wildly powerful, and we need some dulling of the pointy sticks.
I will continue to disagree with this. Lets look at some other Pirate Cruisers. The Stratios. 600+ DPS, 70K EHP Tank, Cov Ops Cloak, Scanning Bonuses The Phantasam 600DPS+ 40K EHP Tank,100mn AB Both of these ships produce more DPS than even a HAM Orthrus, with better tanks, Both of these ships are capable of countering Orthrus at ITS Range (Phantasm with Beams, Stratios with Drones) OR The Orthrus is out of its point Range applying DPS in which case both can leave. This isn't even getting started on the vast array of ships that have similar strengths and weaknesses at the T1 level (cruisers) let alone the T2 level (Frigs/Dessies/Cruisers) or the T3 Level (Dessies/Cruisers) or the BC level. Yes the Orthrus is a great hunter ship, it is very good at finding and holding prey, and in many cases the unprepared (aka specifically targeted) prey get destroyed. This is what hunter ships are very good at doing. In a situation where an Orthrus is exposed to any risk I can think of a dozen Cruiser and under ships that can take it on and walk away. FYI 100mn Beam Phantasm is the hard counter to Orthrus. It reduced is applied DPS by over 70%, it is faster with an AB than the Orthrus with MWD. Stratios is a soft counter it can hit the Orthrus in any range the Orthrus can keep it pointed, with near perfect application itself. Orthrus is not OP or wildly powerful. It has a niche use, and it is very good in that role. In almost all other cases it is just a ship... And this of course is ignoring entirely that EVE is not a solo game, and looking at stuff in a vacuum is stupid.
A Ham Orthrus Actually does exceptionally more DPS than 600. Here is a T2 Fit HAM Orthrus, Obviously if you were flying an Orthrus then Faction Scram > Faction Point & Faction BCUs would be a priority, and very reasonable upgrades but I've limited the fit to T2 Modules only for the sake of argumentation and ease of comparison. I would also like to point out that the Orthrus gets exponentially better with force multipliers like Snakes, Links, and Faction) I have also left obvious implant upgrades absent.
http://puu.sh/hrvNq/a6d5083f3b.png 906 Max DPS with Rage (783 DPS without Heat) 30km Optimal. http://puu.sh/hrw24/6b70ecd360.png 784 Max DPS with CN (680 Without Heat) 36.5km Optimal http://puu.sh/hrw6h/78adb6b7a9.png 633 Max DPS with Javelin (551 Without Heat) 54.7km Optimal
However I am not here for the HAM Orthrus, despite it out-damaging every Caldari Battlecruiser without it being kinetic locked, and only having 10% less DPS than the Nighthawk, while being more than 100% faster than all those ships. It is certainly powerful but it has weaknesses in the current meta-game and requires webbing support in a gang to apply damage, and it's not nearly as powerful without links+faction. Hams are completely different when you have a 27km linked heated domination scram
RLMLs are effective against all sizes of targets, your post reads as you're suggesting that RLMLs are a weapon system tailored specifically for dealing with frigates, however, an Orthrus with Fury missiles right now with 3 T2 BCUs will do over 40k EHP of damage before needing to reload, with select-able damage type, If you count a set of Acolyte II drones into that equation, they will do about 4.4k EHP of damage in 60 seconds, which brings it up to 44k damage. That will kill pretty much every BUFFER FIT cruiser in the game. Not to mention that you need a ship which can potentially catch a 2.3km/s ship (Before links/snakes) that can field a 26km defensive scram in the worst case. The Orthrus is not made of Glass and there is actually a really tanky, semi-pimp fit which has a XLASB and a shield extender with damage control. A Vexor/Thorax will die to an Orthrus even in Blaster Optimal. Unlike HAMs which struggle with Frigates, RLMLs can 2 shot the majority of frigates in the game, and 3-4 shot even buffer fit pirate frigates like worms.
The DPS figures I'm using have reloads factored off. I'm doing that only to show how much effective DPS it does before reloading. Typically, an Orthrus takes around a minute to reload, assuming you can heat for the first 10 cycles of RLML, then turn off heat. So the DPS figures are accurate for the first minute of combat.
http://puu.sh/hrxvF/d5e3a56187.png
Unlinked 'Semi Pimp' fit. 42.6K (47K) Damage before reloading, 24k EHP + 19K EHP regenerated from the XLASB assuming you only use the charges and never use it for cap, and that you don't get a reload, puts this Orthrus up to 43k EHP. 850 DPS while heating. 850 DPS (735 Cold). With Faction it does 712 DPS with heat. The Orthrus does more damage than most GANK FITTED Blaster Cruisers, with Light Missiles to 57km+.
The "Worst Case" Linked fit with implants, just wanted to leave it here http://puu.sh/hrxR3/5d59f82f57.png . 930 DPS. 3.7km/s without heat, 31k EHP + 25k EHP regenerated from XLASB charges (56k EHP total). This can break dual rep battleship fits with light missiles.
My proposal is, despite the Orthrus being absolutely dominating right now (no pun intended) that RLML Damage per clip is reduced.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4371
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Posted - 2015.04.26 18:03:42 -
[21] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:My proposal is, despite the Orthrus being absolutely dominating right now (no pun intended) that RLML Damage per clip is reduced. No. RLMLs are in a good place, and the Orthrus is fine as it is.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Mario Putzo
1243
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Posted - 2015.04.26 18:33:39 -
[22] - Quote
And all of those fits will get dunked by a Phantasm...or a Stratios, whats your point? Orthrus is fine, it is good at taking select engagements, and poor in other areas, just like most other ships in the game. If it was so dominant everyone would be using them...but they aren't they are using Ishtars, Vexors, Vexor Navies, and pretty much anything and everything that has drone bonuses.
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. |
Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4371
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Posted - 2015.04.26 18:34:59 -
[23] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. And the plot thickens...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Khanaesh
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
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Posted - 2015.04.26 23:18:47 -
[24] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. And the plot thickens...
What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter? |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3634
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 01:13:41 -
[25] - Quote
Khanaesh wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. And the plot thickens... What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?
Probably long scrams and fast missiles. |
Praxis Ginimic
Best Kept Frozen.
877
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Posted - 2015.04.27 02:05:36 -
[26] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: People often fail to do that whole "counter build" thing, even though its reasonable. That said, the Orthrus is still wildly powerful, and we need some dulling of the pointy sticks.
I will continue to disagree with this. Lets look at some other Pirate Cruisers. The Stratios. 600+ DPS, 70K EHP Tank, Cov Ops Cloak, Scanning Bonuses The Phantasam 600DPS+ 40K EHP Tank,100mn AB Both of these ships produce more DPS than even a HAM Orthrus, with better tanks, Both of these ships are capable of countering Orthrus at ITS Range (Phantasm with Beams, Stratios with Drones) OR The Orthrus is out of its point Range applying DPS in which case both can leave. This isn't even getting started on the vast array of ships that have similar strengths and weaknesses at the T1 level (cruisers) let alone the T2 level (Frigs/Dessies/Cruisers) or the T3 Level (Dessies/Cruisers) or the BC level. Yes the Orthrus is a great hunter ship, it is very good at finding and holding prey, and in many cases the unprepared (aka specifically targeted) prey get destroyed. This is what hunter ships are very good at doing. In a situation where an Orthrus is exposed to any risk I can think of a dozen Cruiser and under ships that can take it on and walk away. FYI 100mn Beam Phantasm is the hard counter to Orthrus. It reduced is applied DPS by over 70%, it is faster with an AB than the Orthrus with MWD. Stratios is a soft counter it can hit the Orthrus in any range the Orthrus can keep it pointed, with near perfect application itself. Orthrus is not OP or wildly powerful. It has a niche use, and it is very good in that role. In almost all other cases it is just a ship... And this of course is ignoring entirely that EVE is not a solo game, and looking at stuff in a vacuum is stupid.
THIS. So much this.
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Mario Putzo
1247
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Posted - 2015.04.27 02:22:43 -
[27] - Quote
Khanaesh wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. And the plot thickens... What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?
Its ability to point and engage at long ranges while having a high velocity to help reduce sentry drone tracking. Due to how drone fleets typically function (kite, warp to ping if something gets to close, abandon/launch new drones, repeat) the Mordus ships in general function as great tackle and offensive ships against them.
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Khanaesh
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
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Posted - 2015.04.27 02:24:36 -
[28] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Khanaesh wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. And the plot thickens... What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter? Probably the part where it has very fast missiles for the drones and a decently long point to keep the drone boat locked down even at their extended-ish engagement ranges.
How does the missile velocity help with drones? Why is the point range bonus important for countering drones? |
Khanaesh
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
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Posted - 2015.04.27 02:30:10 -
[29] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Khanaesh wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. And the plot thickens... What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter? Its ability to point and engage at long ranges while having a high velocity to help reduce sentry drone tracking. Due to how drone fleets typically function (kite, warp to ping if something gets to close, abandon/launch new drones, repeat) the Mordus ships in general function as great tackle and offensive ships against them.
How do the proposed changes stop the orthrus from doing this? |
Mario Putzo
1247
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Posted - 2015.04.27 03:00:33 -
[30] - Quote
Khanaesh wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Khanaesh wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that. And the plot thickens... What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter? Its ability to point and engage at long ranges while having a high velocity to help reduce sentry drone tracking. Due to how drone fleets typically function (kite, warp to ping if something gets to close, abandon/launch new drones, repeat) the Mordus ships in general function as great tackle and offensive ships against them. How do the proposed changes stop the orthrus from doing this?
Never said they did. Just pointed out that Orthrus performs well against a certain type of ship that is clearly the dominant meta right now read into that what you will. |
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