Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
46
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 11:03:39 -
[121] - Quote
Sorry to be a stick in the mud but could we have a 'lock rotation' option? I've gotten used to a flat 2D map with tenal/branch as the clusters 'north pole'. I see a point in allowing you to rotate the map but I can see times where a static map base is useful.
|
Dark Armata
Exit-Strategy Exit Strategy..
149
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 11:11:05 -
[122] - Quote
Have spent some time scanning with the new map.
To say not impressed is a huge understatement.
The lag/delay needs to be completely removed. Circle needs to be a cursor. Icons need to more "background" when you have probes out. Currently can make probes very hard to use. Probe/Dscan/Overview/etc needs to be able to be on top. Selecting a probe result to display on the map is very buggy, some times they show, sometimes not.
Please have someone spend a couple hours scanning with the new map before making the final decision to remove the old one!
I like scanning, I really do. However removing the old map for the current version of the new map will be terrible for scanners.
W-Space IS Best Space
|
Liz Aun
ASH TO DUST
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 11:20:25 -
[123] - Quote
While the new map looks good it is not very good for scanning.
- It is very hard to see the orbital lines for planets
- Bookmarks and icons clutters the view
- The zoom level can't go as close as the old map, making it much harder to fine tune your probes for the weaker signatures
- The circular mouse pointer makes it extremely difficult to grab your probes or rezise them
I like the new map but i propose that the old system map is kept as a dedicated probing map |
Jenshae Chiroptera
1426
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 11:33:52 -
[124] - Quote
arsonist Igunen wrote:the new map is bad and you should feel bad I know this is some of that rubbish that echos in empty heads but think about it. Here is someone trying to make something new. If you want someone to feel bad about making new things then CCP will dwindle down to safe and boring very quickly.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 13:13:45 -
[125] - Quote
I find it really sad that I have never heard anyone say that the scanning map is good. Neither in the forum, nor in starter corp chat, nor in other chats. It is sad because it proves the point that it was pushed out too early :c
Now I know from personal experience that a game company cannot be blamed in it's entirety for decisions. It is easy to say "blame CCP" when nobody knows what goes on behind the curtain. My guess is, the starmap team said "it is not ready" but someone else in marketing, management or elsewhere said "It's booked for this update, so we ship it, just continue working." Or it could have been like "let's release it and see what happens with the feedback". Both scenarios are not really helpful and I still think the system map should have been more polished before the "official" default release, and that pushed back to the 2nd June expansion.
Again, I understand the need for a new map, and I understand the possible necessity of needing to build it up from the ground because maybe the old map was one of those dreaded "legacy code" things where no change could be made. Or it was more feasible to create an entirely new map that connects better with branching connectivity through other parts of the game of which some are yet to come? I don't know for sure, but I know that I want to help as best as I can to make the new map worthwhile c: I'm more or less required to use it all the time so I might as well help.
I fear we have some "incarna" problem. Forcing captain's quarters upon people didn't work so well, and I sincerely hope that the new starmap will not become a second coming of Incarna-rage. I do look forward for all the improvements made to the starmap, and I look forward to carry my weight to at least try and getting there c:
Oh and a last thing why it is so important that I mentioned starter corporation; I'm not sure if you know, but all the helpful people in CAS, from veterans to "still on trial" have a much harder time to get new players around in Eve. There are a lot more questions and irritations coming from new players than before with opportunities and we need a lot more manual guidance. The same with the starmap. The best thing we could do to help them is tell them how to activate the old map, and all of them have been thankful for this.
The consensus of all the dozens of players I see daily in my corp chat is: "new map looks (a bit) more pretty, but is a lot less useful." |
Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:44:39 -
[126] - Quote
There is a probe bug where you occasionally can't click on one of the faces of one of the probe cubes, as a different label underneath or near the cube receives the click. Even though the probe face appears to be the frontmost object in the scene. |
FreshZone
Goat Herders Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:55:08 -
[127] - Quote
You really should be able to see the distance to moons/planets in the map like in the old one. Its really difficult to figure out what is in d-scan range or not |
Lamajagarn McMyra
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
15
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:09:11 -
[128] - Quote
Just logged in today to notice this new map thing, while it looks pretty sweet i unfortunately found it unresponsive with tendencies towards lagging. Bookmarks and the probe locations stuff covers up to much also. As for the cursor i first thought it was a joke as i heard corpies talk about in on teamspeak but it is indeed more horrible than expected. Noticed we still have the option of using the old map, may bob bless you for this but could you also make it possible to access it through the probe scanner window.
Can't comment on the new starmap as of yet as i can't seem to figure out how to swap into it even.
|
Kaliba Mort
Patriotic Tendencies Executive Outcomes
9
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 17:37:14 -
[129] - Quote
The map looks nice, but once you zoom in to system level for probing, it is much less functional than the old solar system view.
1. I don't really want to see all the colors outside the solar system - they reduce the contrast of what I'm doing inside with probes 2. Not enough zoom level 3. At high zoom level, the rotation can be "jerky" (round off errors?) 4. The new window obstructs other windows - sometimes you want the map in the background, not to be in the foreground obstructing directional, scan results window, chats, etc...
Overall, for probing, the old solar system only view is far superior.. and please enable the option of having the new map fullscreen in the background, as with the old map. Or at least, window that does not overlap other windows.
|
|
CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
5071
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 17:49:28 -
[130] - Quote
Hello
Posting to let you all know that we've been receiving an enormous amount of feedback on the new map, particularly concerning the probing interface. Even though we moved the new map in as the default in this release we are still very hard at work trying to improve it. We are certainly glad we left the old map available for you in the mean time while we work to smooth out any discomforts or problems with the new one.
Expect some crucial fixes to be patched in very soon but also please be patient while we go through all the feedback and try to tackle some of the more complex problems. Hopefully with the next major release we will have a probing interface up to snuff but we won't remove the option to use the old map until that's the case.
Thanks for all the good feedback here as well as through bug reports, direct EVE mails and through the CSM. o/
@ccp_rise
|
|
|
Ragnar Snowed
Trantor Investment La Division Bleue
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 18:32:32 -
[131] - Quote
Hello,
thanks to left the old map availlable, probe scanning isn't usable with the new map.
an other way to use the map is for dscan and the new map isn't usable in this way :
I can't locate planets or moon and align my camera from where I am to a planet and dscan with 30-¦ for find someone
|
Wilj0
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 18:35:36 -
[132] - Quote
Hi,
I agree with other people that the zoom in animation when the map opens has to go. Just like the old map, give us an option to disable animations.
I personally like the zooming inertia, but I can see how it can be annoying to others. If you do remove it, make it an option to enable/disable please.
I would like a button that zooms me out to star map and in to solar system with a cardinal north as suggested previously. Using your scroll wheel 5 times and rotating the map takes too long. This won't be as much of an issue if I could have multiple instances of the map opened at a time where one will show me the solar system and another the star map. But having only one map to zoom in and out with between the two takes too long.
Select a solar system before jumping into it and zoom into solar system view. Now jump into that system and the probing signatures do now show up automatically as you jump in. You will need to close the map and open it again.
Here is a prototype for a new probe interface. The new look blends better with the theme in Eve and it's radial menu (make it look like the radial menu). It will also improves user experience since the interface will not get in the way of the signature you're scanning and will always be on top of any markers and labels and have clicking priority. So no more selecting a map marker and rotating the camera around when you meant to move the scanning probes or not be able to move the probes away from the center of the solar system because of all the cluttered markers on top of their interface. Also, currently if you zoom out the probe interface covers the spheres and the only way to resize the the probe's scanning strength is zoom back in until you see the blue sphere to click and drag them or use the Probe Scanner window, select all probes, right click and select the size. These added steps could be life or death.
Prototype Probe Interface Example
Note that there is no x, y, z grid movement buttons. This is because the interface will move the probes perpendicular to the current camera angle therefore the UI can always face the camera and be easy to click on. You can even add new key bindings to move and scale the drones (up, down, left, right, num+, num-) even faster.
The UI's outer ring allows you to move/position the probes. The buttons on the top, bottom, left and right are obviously for moving the probes only horizontally or vertically. The buttons on the corners let you move the probes in any direction. The inner ring lets you scale the probes. The inner ring can be removed and you can use the corner buttons for scaling probe strength and let the up, down, left, right buttons move the probes in any direction (don't lock to an axis).
Note the cross-hairs on the center of the UI. This cross-hairs is 3D pointing at the cardinal directions of the galaxy. It serves two purposes. One is to pinpoint exactly the center of your current scan. The second is to give the player a reference to orient himself when spinning the camera around while positioning the probes for a scan (left, front, top).
The interface should come with a scaling slider option to increase/decrease the size of the UI. The UI should not scale when you resize the map window. |
Tiran'Sol
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 18:41:05 -
[133] - Quote
A bit of feedback. I really like the general look of the new map. It looks "great", however sadly I need significantly more time recognizing and processing information. I consider the following things a regression:
- Color and size indicator of activity. Distinguishing 1 perosn in a system vs 0 person in a system is hard. This is partly because the color isn't distinct enough from the standard color of solar systems in the overview and partly because the circles are rendered too small.
- Cynogens listings are huge. Provi is a huge orange dot now. The rendered circles are overlapping and way too big, making it impossible to distinguish systems.
- General colors of system connections don't have enough contrast. In particular with new background. Please have the map have more contrast
- Dscanning using the system map doesn't work anymore. We used to jump in, hit the system map button and be able to look around into a direciton and scan. With the new map this is gone as it centers around the sun and not where in the system you are. This is a major drawback as we now are bound to clumsy in-game overlays and 10s delays till they show up.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1141
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 18:55:20 -
[134] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Posting to let you all know that we've been receiving an enormous amount of feedback on the new map, particularly concerning the probing interface. Even though we moved the new map in as the default in this release we are still very hard at work trying to improve it. We are certainly glad we left the old map available for you in the mean time while we work to smooth out any discomforts or problems with the new one.
Expect some crucial fixes to be patched in very soon but also please be patient while we go through all the feedback and try to tackle some of the more complex problems. Hopefully with the next major release we will have a probing interface up to snuff but we won't remove the option to use the old map until that's the case.
Thanks for all the good feedback here as well as through bug reports, direct EVE mails and through the CSM. o/
Do you have any plans to look at the statistics granularity?
It's been mentioned a LOT and I don't recall seeing any notes about it. Apologies if I missed one. |
Circumstantial Evidence
178
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 19:38:11 -
[135] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote:Sorry to be a stick in the mud but could we have a 'lock rotation' option? I've gotten used to a flat 2D map with tenal/branch as the clusters 'north pole'. I see a point in allowing you to rotate the map but I can see times where a static map base is useful. +1 Abstract view is nice, pan/tilt/zoom control is nice, but, a consistent fixed frame of reference is a hallmark of the old 2D map.
Zoom inertia: another vote that this has too much (very cool looking) float in it, leading to undershoot/overshoot of desired result. |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
536
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:34:14 -
[136] - Quote
Aside from all the issues with fullscreen, pan speed responseness, probe icons getting in way of your ability to even click the scan resposition square; why the heck are the moons not viewable? You can't zoom in as far now, meaning you can't pick out individual moons for d-scan or navigational purposes.
Twitter - TG_3
Ex EVE Blogger - posts still available at Through Newb Eyes
Chat channels in-game; "RvB Spooning R US", "RvB Ganked", "Basket"
|
Jackie Cane
Chaos Gate
23
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 22:33:46 -
[137] - Quote
So a few pointers for the new map.
1) When in fullscreen mode i spent a good 20 minutes or so looking for the map control panel, only to realize it was at the center top. This was because the color of the panel was black, on top of a black background, plus the icons are super tiny. The panel color should be like a light gray or some contrast color so people know where it is. Also the buttons could be a bit bigger. The map controls should be clearly labeled as controls..... not just "Map"
2) The station service window does not automatically close when I open the map in fullscreen.
3) A focus on destination button would be nice
4)why is the flat map ( 2D ) option called abstract instead of 2D or flat map? How will future generations know that QYZM-W is the true north of EVE ?
5) the "color by" menu could stand to be wider so that the list of options can each fit on a single line
6) Recent menu selections should be collapsable
Other than that it looks really nice, and it seems to be coming along pretty well. |
Nico Gasha
Emasculation Services
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 03:16:11 -
[138] - Quote
The new map is not beta. Its more like an epsilon submoron. It locks up the minute you try to move it around. At one point it zoomed off the side of the page and I couldn't get it back to center at all. The old map, you can just grab it an move it around very easily. If I can't even do this, I won't use it. I disabled it immediately. |
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
145
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:31:07 -
[139] - Quote
argh ... missed the link before posting this in the old thread ...
Yeah the new map is pretty and i like the ideas but the usability as far as serious scanning goes leaves a lot to be desired.
takes more clicks to be able to resize probes.
when dragging probes as groups, approaching the top or the bottom of the map focus changes and movement is reversed.
sometimes probes completely disappear off the map. have to relaunch map to get them to reappear.
groups of signatures disappear and become unveiwable on map you have to repeatedly click on the sig id. so it will show briefly.
signatures disappearing all together.. dont know what to make of this one, will scan something down to 70 - 80+ % next refinement poof its gone. figure it was a weird false positive, scan down something else. enlarge scanning area .. and there it is again may or may not be able to scan it down depending on ?. regardless sigs are disappearing off the map.
while i was able scan successfully last night there was a lot of frustration involved. that was not the case with the old map.
suggest you have a dev scan down all the drones in a system, so they can experience first hand the issues that are being alluded to in this thread. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
707
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 06:52:00 -
[140] - Quote
Issue: Star map. Setting a series of waypoints for a long route.
When setting up a long series of waypoints across a region, for a ghost hunting patrol for example, perhaps a route 60 jumps long, the new map overloads you with unnecessary information that does not add anything of value, but distracts.
Consider, which is better?
Old map or New map
You can clearly see that the old map fulfills the requirements for display of a route without unnecessary eye candy, AND has a somewhat better perspective, better overview of the region.
This is what i would suggest.
1) Add option to turn off constellation highlighting. This is just annoying, have you tried to plot a route around jita? Look at this mess... Map screenshot 2) Add option to control/remove system name fade-in. Sometimes, I dont care about system names. Actually, i dont care about system names MOST of the time. Just take up map screen space. 3) Add option to display all systems as standard dots with NO color. In new map, even actual color of suns is still multi-colored and annoying/distracting. Eye candy, nothing else. 4) Add option to display all jump connections as simple grey lines. No differentiation between regional and standard gates please. all connections should be the same type of line. No multicolored weirdness please. 5) Route animation and color is also distracting. When the stars are colored by security status on new map, everything is just one red line... Look at this, where is my route? Map screenshot This is just godawful.
Bottom line. New map is pretty, shiny, lots of eye candy, but for the love of god, please give me a basic version with just dots and lines and everything turned off. its a map, not a children's coloring book.
Issue. Scanning.
When scanning, I just need sun, planets, orbits in a thin grey line for ease of orientation, and a detailed level of zoom so i can tell which moon, belt or a nearby safespot a ship is at. Currently, I cant even zoom in enough to see where the asteroid belts are.
For scanning, new map is completely unusable until you add a level of zoom that allows me to see which moon/belt a ship is at.
Also, remove all eye candy please, when Im scanning i could not care less about what color the sun is. Just give me schematic outlines of the system. |
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
964
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 13:22:49 -
[141] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:arsonist Igunen wrote:the new map is bad and you should feel bad I know this is some of that rubbish that echos in empty heads but think about it. Here is someone trying to make something new. If you want someone to feel bad about making new things then CCP will dwindle down to safe and boring very quickly.
On the one hand you're right. Innovation is both key and to be appreciated. On the other hand - I don't give out trophies or sprinkles for 5th place.
A lot of folks are looking for some turtle feed back on the color stuff. Specifically, to pull any data from the zoomed out space I have to zoom in and hover over a system to get any info out of it. Can we get some feed back on making the color gradient more meaningful for 'jumps in the last hour', 'folks active and gankable', 'afk alts docked in station', 'ishtars are here (npcs killed in the last hour)'
PVP minded folks use the star map a lot. They won't be using the new star map functions much at all. We want to be able to quickly pull data from the various tabs. Right now it just isn't possible. Speaking of tabs - I know this create a colorful button that has no connection to the things it does is 'a thing' these days, but one of the useful features of the original star map is the clearly laid out and easily readablt/accessible panel that came with it. I can quickly click through a large number of labelled filters. The new one - you have to go to the upper left corner of the map, pick a picture, pull down a menu, pick a subsection, scroll to the item you want and click it.
You've gone from an always visible set of tabs where you were at most 2 clicks away from anything you could want to scroll, click, click, scroll down and click. This is not an enhancement.
You've updated mid 80s graphics to current standards - totally awesome!!
You've obscured the utility of the old map in 2 ways: 1. The hard to discern color gradient (we'll call it the 'where's Jita?' feature. 2. You've gone from 2 clicks to anything in the old map to a series of buttons to pull downs to menus to scroll... OK there it is "CLICK"
You're trying to swap out my MP-5a for a sling shot. I don't want a slingshot - I want a P-90. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
711
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 13:40:08 -
[142] - Quote
As a follow-up, here is a radical idea:
rework probing itself. As yourself, what does switching to a different map to combat probe add to a game? Nothing really.
scanning/probing should be a seamless experience. Right now, as you jump into system, and if you have anomalies, sigs enabled, you see them around you as you look around your ship. Red/green icons on your gameplay window, like in this screenshot.
Unknown ship/structure contacts should be like that as well, and if you deploy probes, they should be probed out seamlessly and automatically by your ship computer. The only variable should be time.
You jump in, your ship computer picks up a list of contacts, they are displayed on your screen as icons and in your probe window as a list. You deploy probes, hit scan, little timers start ticking down each contact individually in your scan window, gradually signal strength bars are filling up, and eventually, contacts become 100% green.
Variety in tech 1, tech 2, faction probes should probably affect speed of system scanning, and/or how many sigs can a ship computer work on at once.
And you could probably leave manual scanning in the game as well for those times when pilot skill is required.
But really, with new eye candy map, automatic scanning would work better. |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
284
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 14:05:22 -
[143] - Quote
Also, the new map doesn't work for scanning at all.
http://imgur.com/K5GCIyd
Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
964
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 14:17:19 -
[144] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:As a follow-up, here is a radical idea:
Stuff that doesn't justify lazy scanning method
But really, with new eye candy map, automatic scanning would work better.
I'd think getting burned out of your wh for being bears would at least keep you quiet for a few days. WH space is about being the opposite of lazy. Scanning is about the opposite of lazy. You want automatic anything.... go to null. (It occurs to me that there are quite a few folks willing to help you get there)
Seriously, every cry for automation in scanning gets us one step closer to eve being a 'warp to anom' only game.
For those that like to scan - there are scannable signatures. For those that don't like to scan - there are anoms. For those that don't like to scan but want to warp to scannable signatures - there is practice.
CCP has already provided everything needed on this issue. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
8005
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:16:54 -
[145] - Quote
My post will concentrate on scanning issues.
1. Scanning in New Eden system is broken, probes don't show their scan range properly. They are poping into view or minimizing until not visible while you zoom out and in a little. 2. Marker for moving probes - visibility when selected isnt improved. still light blue on white? Maybe add cursor change to indicate. Shading too contrastive. Here is the image how I imagine it working better. 3. Full screen mode window - you can't move a view while clicking and moving mouse while its in the corner of the screen, because of cursor mode changing in the corner. 4. Probe globes - "glueing" to cursor for moving works differently on globes that are in center and those that are on the corners of the probes bunch. Those in center "glue" to the cursor while cursor is on the border of the globe, those that are on corners glue it little nearer the center, and not so much on the border like those in center. They should glue equally, right from the border and little to the center.
There should be an option to swith "center map on active system automatically" after every jump.
Custom ship skins | Since 2014 | Character creator style "repaint" | Bring back the dream
|
Shazbot Shenanigan
Waves of Aegir Phoebe Freeport Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:46:35 -
[146] - Quote
Is it me or is the option to color lines totally gone from the new map?
In the old one i like to have my lines colored by standings and stars by something else. I can't do the same in the new map (either at all or the option for it is too well hidden :S )
|
Memphis Baas
352
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 20:20:54 -
[147] - Quote
Wilj0 wrote:Hey Memphis,
I complained about the same thing, but someone pointed out to me that you can disable the background noise for the beta map from the Esc menu -> Audio -> Advanced Audio Settings -> Map & ISIS Volume.
Thanks, that kinda works. It disables ALL map sounds, including the beeps and clicks when you select things, which I liked to hear. I just wanted the humming background sound gone.
In any case, I used the map, attached to the right side of the screen, and it's nice that it offsets the camera, but it completely disables any additional camera offset that I may have set up in the Graphics settings. There's a thread here discussing the camera offset and brackets at the edges of the screen. Maybe they'll fix that in the future.
For CCP, the planet orbit lines in the local map are damn useful. I understand, visually, where I am in space when I look at the system map and the icons. On the other hand, I am totally confused when I'm looking at my ship in-space, even with "show all brackets."
Please give us an option to enable the orbit lines IN SPACE, so that the space scene looks a little bit more like the local map.
The lines would help us understand our position relative to the planets better, and with a little more zoom-out distance may even let use probes straight from the space scene, not even needing the local map. Not that I really care about that, I just want to be able to figure out where I am by just looking around.
|
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1415
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 23:22:39 -
[148] - Quote
The map needs to be tied to the overview like the current map.
If i see someone within one AU of a celestial beacon, i want to be able to go to my probing alt and open my map, click that beacon in the overview and have it highlight in my map like the current one does. Currently i have to spend time clicking on every cluster to see where the beacon is.
Heres a crazy thought, why not hold back on iterations until your new 'effort' is at least as functional as your last one?
Cant believe i had to say that.
Actually, i can. |
BadMrFr0sty
Vitriolic Animosity Diplomatic Immunity.
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 03:14:53 -
[149] - Quote
1) ^^^ 2) A circle for a pointer is painful for probing 3) With the old map, when i mouse over an item it'll show me how far away it is fairly quickly. The new map doesn't tell me how far away things are. I suppose I could add that stuff to an overview tab, but I don't want to clobber an overview tab with planets... |
Dant Perst
Dark Matter Industrial Corp
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 09:05:02 -
[150] - Quote
Ditto to all the comments regarding scanning (probe, d-, etc). As it stands, the new map with all the lovely bells and whistles is not an improvement, rather a detriment. Simple solution is to maintain both maps, or allow one to toggle between them. The new map is a dealbreaker. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |