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Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
142
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Posted - 2015.05.14 01:12:47 -
[121] - Quote
Tabor Murn wrote:Spin this however you like Amarrian. The fact that you invoke the name of Arkon Sarain in your post does him a tremendous disservice. I think he at least would have the decency not to refer as his fellow delegates as "malcontents" nor would he rush to IGS to smear his opponents.
Your kind made it quite clear that no Matari voice was welcome in this sham of a conference. Amarr and Caldari delegates outnumbered their Minmatar and Gallente peers. It was only natural to expect that every Minmatar voiced commission was either voted down, or twisted to your purposes before the commission was even formed. Every Amarr or Caldari proposal sailed through. More than once were Minmatar delegates silenced by the chair of the commitee before being able to voice their objections.
It's quite clear what sort of peace your lot are after. The same as always. You wish to get your way and everyone else must bend their knee to your wishes.
As I said, the minutes will doubtless reflect my praise for the delegates' accomplishments today. The commission that you refer to we accepted exactly as your side proposed it except that we wished for the two issues be decided separately. We support both causes of combating the illegal slave trade as well as preventing slave abuse and would have entertained we simply thought the questions were best addressed separately with the knowledge that future proposals from both could be combined by the General Congress if necessary. I was honestly surprised such offense was taken for dividing the question, which the majority of delegates seemed to also thing was the right and proper course of action.
Personally I would have not pursued the division, even though I think the combination of issues at the committee stage is deleterious to their resolution, had I known the reaction the you and the other two delegates would have.
As to your claim that Matari representatives were not permitted to speak that is simply not true, again as the minutes will reflect. They were afforded the same rights of discourse by parliamentary procedure as other delegates and were only reprimanded when speaking out of turn. In fact, I believe the Honorable Delegate Ayallah made the longest speech permitted in today's proceedings despite possible time violations.
I would advice the conference organizers to leave an open invitation for your return and I hope that, upon reflection, you see fit to come back and help us in this grand undertaking.
On a personal note, I would very much appreciate it if you would refrain from bearing false witness of my devotion to the Honorable Doctor's work and implying that I am doing a disservice to his memory. He was a dear friend in life to me and your words, I am sure spoken in haste, hurt me.
Peace in our time.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
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Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
456
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Posted - 2015.05.14 15:07:59 -
[122] - Quote
In the interests of candidness, I have submitted the following for consideration within the conference administration. With permission, I am copying it here for the delegates and public to view and offer feedback.
Liam Antolliere wrote:Chair and Administrator Onzo, Given the recent mishap regarding the structure of the conference and the tallying of votes, I feel a review of structure is in order. This oversight has caused a loss of confidence in the conference and a loss of interest and enthusiasm by at least one party and likely more. I propose the following restructure: Each representative polity (faction or corporation) should convene to elect a representative to speak and vote on the polity's behalf. This will relegate each political faction's interest to a singular vote. There are a few ways this could be accomplished, none of them overly graceful but some less complex than others. The most simple solution would be to organize parties into groups based on national affiliations (Amarr Empire, Minmatar Republic, Gallente Federation, Caldari State, Angels, Serpentis, Guristas, Independent). Pros:
- Fewest vote total (making easier vote tally)
- Eliminates largest discepancy of partipant population (evens the numbers the most)
Cons:
- Does not account for divisions within factions (Empire families, Federal voter blocs, etc)
- Bolsters power of "swing" votes (independent vote becomes most crucial on every topic)
- Increases likelihood of ties (fewer voting parties, more clear divisions, voters abstaining due to internal divisions)
Another way would be to permit internal divisions gaining representation. The best way to bring about this organization would be to have each faction's representatives convene and divide themselves into one, two or three individual polities based on political divisions within the faction. There is a caveat however; in order to prevent abuse of the divisions (one party claiming as many divisions as possible in order to gain more votes), each faction will need to be limited to the same number of divisions based on the minimum number afforded by any indivdiual polity. (Lowest common denominator). Pros:
- Allows for more nuanced approach to topics
- Considers internal political divisions and gives them a voice
- Increases overall voter representation
Cons:
- Eliminates smaller discrepancy of participant population
- Still subject to abuse if voter groups rally by factional banner on topics
- Increases vote tally
Perhaps a compromise between the two could be found? However, those are the two simplest solutions to the dilemma. Obviously we wish to encourage continued participation from as many parties as possible and we owe an unequivocal, and public, apology to the Minmatar delegation that was overshadowed due to a raw democratic process since it is our failure to notice the voter discrepancy that led to the problem. I would also strongly recommend a reconvening of this session following the restructure to reapproach each topic under the new structure and permit a more fair and balanced resolution. That, however, is your discretion. Respectfully, ~O.J. Antolliere, PRO
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
723
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Posted - 2015.05.14 15:46:40 -
[123] - Quote
I don't know. It's all indeed not very graceful. I particularly see problems when it comes to Independent Delegates, their views could differ in various ways on various points, likely more often than the other groups.
Maybe if we apply one of these structures, it would still be best if we still allowed all delegates to vote on each proposal, but the delegates' votes would only decide what their polity/faction vote would be.
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Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4824
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Posted - 2015.05.14 16:55:55 -
[124] - Quote
We should obviously weight the vote allocation of the different factions. Give the mainstream factions a number of votes and allow the total of the Independent factions to equal a single mainstream faction - allowing them to act as a tiebreaker but not giving them the same say as a major faction.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
356
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Posted - 2015.05.14 17:10:08 -
[125] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:We should obviously weight the vote allocation of the different factions. Give the mainstream factions a number of votes and allow the total of the Independent factions to equal a single mainstream faction - allowing them to act as a tiebreaker but not giving them the same say as a major faction.
This suggestion makes the most sense out of the various I've seen circulated so far today.
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Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
457
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Posted - 2015.05.14 17:42:41 -
[126] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:We should obviously weight the vote allocation of the different factions. Give the mainstream factions a number of votes and allow the total of the Independent factions to equal a single mainstream faction - allowing them to act as a tiebreaker but not giving them the same say as a major faction.
This is essentially what our internal discussion has been leaning toward. We are still discussing the specifics and the eventual decision will be announced here. In the meantime, please continue to provide feedback as it helps arrive at a solution that would be most equitable for all involved parties.
Thank you.
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
345
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Posted - 2015.05.14 19:00:50 -
[127] - Quote
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:As I said, the minutes will doubtless reflect my praise for the delegates' accomplishments today. The commission that you refer to we accepted exactly as your side proposed it except that we wished for the two issues be decided separately. We support both causes of combating the illegal slave trade as well as preventing slave abuse and would have entertained we simply thought the questions were best addressed separately with the knowledge that future proposals from both could be combined by the General Congress if necessary. I was honestly surprised such offense was taken for dividing the question, which the majority of delegates seemed to also thing was the right and proper course of action.
Personally I would have not pursued the division, even though I think the combination of issues at the committee stage is deleterious to their resolution, had I known the reaction the you and the other two delegates would have.
As to your claim that Matari representatives were not permitted to speak that is simply not true, again as the minutes will reflect. They were afforded the same rights of discourse by parliamentary procedure as other delegates and were only reprimanded when speaking out of turn. In fact, I believe the Honorable Delegate Ayallah made the longest speech permitted in today's proceedings despite possible time violations.
I would advice the conference organizers to leave an open invitation for your return and I hope that, upon reflection, you see fit to come back and help us in this grand undertaking.
On a personal note, I would very much appreciate it if you would refrain from bearing false witness of my devotion to the Honorable Doctor's work and implying that I am doing a disservice to his memory. He was a dear friend in life to me and your words, I am sure spoken in haste, hurt me.
Peace in our time. It was not accepted exactly as I said but instead split into two issues which effect the commission I proposed, but do not have the same purpose, intention, or scope. The fact that it was able to be split in half before I even had a chance to counter, clarify or suggest my own alternative into two commissions on related subjects as you said is equal to what all delegates get but was still unacceptable.
Having read your responses here and that you sent privately and having spoken to other Delagates from the Amarrian side I believe we have a solution that will be proposed today.
I would like to thank you and the other delegates who I have spoken to over the night for you candor and dedication to the ideals of peace.
-áFear The Tribes
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4829
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Posted - 2015.05.14 21:11:08 -
[128] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:We should obviously weight the vote allocation of the different factions. Give the mainstream factions a number of votes and allow the total of the Independent factions to equal a single mainstream faction - allowing them to act as a tiebreaker but not giving them the same say as a major faction.
This is essentially what our internal discussion has been leaning toward. We are still discussing the specifics and the eventual decision will be announced here. In the meantime, please continue to provide feedback as it helps arrive at a solution that would be most equitable for all involved parties. Thank you.
Okay. Given the dynamic nature of attendance, the way the votes should be counted would be to tabulate them as before and then divide the number of faction votes by the number of voters from that faction, on all sides of the question. For example, if the Matari have two delegates voting then each of their votes add 5 points to whatever side each of them picks. If the Amarr have 5 delegates then each of their votes adds 2 points to whatever side each of them picks.
So if 1 Matari and 1 Amarrian vote for A and 1 Matari and 3 Amarrians vote for B and 1 Amarrian votes for C you get:
A = 7 votes B = 11 votes C = 2 votes
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Kale Silence
Sebietar Scavenging and Hacking
83
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Posted - 2015.05.14 22:49:18 -
[129] - Quote
I'm curious.
Why do the votes matter? You have no decision-making authority over me
"Love me or hate me, but money don't judge me. I don't care about your opinion, unless you intend to pay me. Then I care."
- Anonymous
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Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution Evictus.
121
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Posted - 2015.05.14 22:53:16 -
[130] - Quote
Kale Silence wrote:I'm curious. Why do the votes matter? You have no decision-making authority over me
That's quite the ego to assume the votes have anything to do with you. |
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Kale Silence
Sebietar Scavenging and Hacking
83
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Posted - 2015.05.14 23:00:30 -
[131] - Quote
Vizage wrote:Kale Silence wrote:I'm curious. Why do the votes matter? You have no decision-making authority over me That's quite the ego to assume the votes have anything to do with you.
Well thus my question.
"Love me or hate me, but money don't judge me. I don't care about your opinion, unless you intend to pay me. Then I care."
- Anonymous
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Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1006
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Posted - 2015.05.14 23:04:27 -
[132] - Quote
It is to try to assess whether or not the Conference can come to conclusions without having to have month long debates and discussions. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
4830
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Posted - 2015.05.15 05:11:06 -
[133] - Quote
Kale Silence wrote:I'm curious. Why do the votes matter? You have no decision-making authority over me
Why do you think we give a damn about you? This is about pro-offering suggestions aimed at solving problems between the Empires, not a single itinerant Matari capsuleer. You'll do what you damn well always have - what all of us do - whatever you want. Frankly, suggesting ways to the Empires to rein Capsuleers in would be a bit self-defeating of the conference.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
1431
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Posted - 2015.05.15 08:12:52 -
[134] - Quote
Tabor Murn wrote: Your kind made it quite clear that no Matari voice was welcome in this sham of a conference. Amarr and Caldari delegates outnumbered their Minmatar and Gallente peers.
The only time any Minmatar or Gallente should speak is to ask 'Would you like Fries with that?' after the Amarr and Caldari have ordered their burgers.
Anything else coming from the mouths of either race would just be a lie anyway.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
594
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Posted - 2015.05.15 08:35:54 -
[135] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Tabor Murn wrote: Your kind made it quite clear that no Matari voice was welcome in this sham of a conference. Amarr and Caldari delegates outnumbered their Minmatar and Gallente peers.
The only time any Minmatar or Gallente should speak is to ask 'Would you like Fries with that?' after the Amarr and Caldari have ordered their burgers. Anything else coming from the mouths of either race would just be a lie anyway.
yes we remain silent when you enjoy the special sauce on your burgers soo much
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Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
542
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Posted - 2015.05.15 11:22:33 -
[136] - Quote
Don't feed the racist agent provocateur's trawling, Lan. It's simply not worth the effort.
Tabor Murn wrote: It's quite clear what sort of peace your lot are after. The same as always. You wish to get your way and everyone else must bend their knee to your wishes.
While you're at it, you should go and hold Tiberious' hand regarding his 'PPC organizers are Angel sympathizers' conspiracy theory.
You do understand the person who was in charge of approving admittances to the conference is a Federal loyalist and ethnic Gallente himself, right?
- Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim
Angels are never far...
Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
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Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1006
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Posted - 2015.05.15 12:10:57 -
[137] - Quote
Leopold Caine wrote: You do understand the person who was in charge of approving admittances to the conference is a Federal loyalist and ethnic Gallente himself, right?
It was not meant seriously. You do understand what a joke is, right?
Besides, it is not impossible given the possibility of Federation corruption and Serpentis ties that there would be Gallente sympathetic to the Cartel. I don't think that is the case here, and I feel neither does Tiberious, but it is not an impossible situation. |
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
542
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Posted - 2015.05.15 12:43:17 -
[138] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Leopold Caine wrote: You do understand the person who was in charge of approving admittances to the conference is a Federal loyalist and ethnic Gallente himself, right?
It was not meant seriously. You do understand what a joke is, right?
I haven't got the impression Mr. Tabor Murn was in a joking mood in regards to his post; if so, I don't understand where's the comedic appeal in the whole thing.
If you were referring to Tiberous', and merely don't know how to quote something properly, again... comedic appeal? A bit too much to expect from a Sansha, I know, but...
- Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim
Angels are never far...
Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
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Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
128
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Posted - 2015.05.15 13:05:45 -
[139] - Quote
I like Pieter's suggestion (the one with the A, B, C and the vote tally and such) and it is my most favorite of all presented.
However, if we are going to go with a Republic voting system I would suggest the following:
Everyday, each political entity (Angel Cartel, Amarr Empire, Minmatar Republic, etc) votes on who will represent them in that days proceedings.
If a member within these entities wanted to propose a commission, the commission would first be proposed to the Delegate's respective entity. The people within that entity would then vote amongst themselves whether or not to propose the Commision.
If the entity voted to propose the vote, it would then be proposed to the General Congress. Each entity then vote amongst themselves to reject or accept the Commission, and the Representative would vote based on their Inner-Entity Vote.
Again, I would much rather go with Pieter's idea, but if you are determined to go republican, this is an idea. |
Jili Tonari
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2015.05.15 13:49:49 -
[140] - Quote
This is a noble effort but...
Can this conference take all Matari from the Empire and send them home?
Can this conference give the Caldari people their homeworld?
Can this conference end the border wars?
Can this conference end organized piracy?
Can this conference communicate with Drifters?
Can this conference save the Jove (if it is not already too late)?
Can this conference end slavery?
Can the results of this conference sway our peoples or governments?
Is this more than an exercise in ego?
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Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
128
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Posted - 2015.05.15 14:28:53 -
[141] - Quote
Jili Tonari wrote:This is a noble effort but...
Can this conference take all Matari from the Empire and send them home?
Can this conference give the Caldari people their homeworld?
Can this conference end the border wars?
Can this conference end organized piracy?
Can this conference communicate with Drifters?
Can this conference save the Jove (if it is not already too late)?
Can this conference end slavery?
Can the results of this conference sway our peoples or governments?
Is this more than an exercise in ego?
1: 5% Chance 2: 95% Chance 4: 100% Chance 5: 50-50 (Because apparently there are pirates as delegates) 6: 0% Chance (not a goal) 7: Unknown 8: Don't put your hopes on it. 9: 50% Chance 10: Not at all. |
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp Nox Draconum
46
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Posted - 2015.05.15 14:34:54 -
[142] - Quote
The answer, Jill, is an optimistic "maybe" ... therefore I think it's worth the effort to try.
*wanders off singing "Optimistique Moi" softly* |
Evi Polevhia
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
1006
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Posted - 2015.05.15 15:03:02 -
[143] - Quote
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote: 4: 100% Chance
Put down the drugs, sir. |
Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
458
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Posted - 2015.05.15 15:49:23 -
[144] - Quote
Jili Tonari wrote:This is a noble effort but...
Can this conference take all Matari from the Empire and send them home?
Can this conference give the Caldari people their homeworld?
Can this conference end the border wars?
Can this conference end organized piracy?
Can this conference communicate with Drifters?
Can this conference save the Jove (if it is not already too late)?
Can this conference end slavery?
No, nor is it intended to any of the above.
Jili Tonari wrote:Can the results of this conference sway our peoples or governments?
Only time will tell.
Jili Tonari wrote:Is this more than an exercise in ego?
Perhaps not for everyone, but for some of us; yes, it is more.
Your questions represent a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and intent of this conference, which would be rectified by reading through the original post and perhaps the first two pages of discussion.
In brief: the conference is designed to be an airing of ideas and open discussion regarding what various parties and interests around the cluster would pursue in the name of peace. Then, to establish commissions and groups to devise workable solutions toward reaching those goals to provide an action plan going forward.
That action plan can be followed by those of us intent on doing so, shared with the major powers of the cluster and generally used to represent an ideal beyond each of us individually: the ideal that peace can be sought after if we strive to do so and put that ideal into a workable form.
Nothing more, nothing less. It makes no presumptions of power or official backing.
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
458
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Posted - 2015.05.15 15:55:41 -
[145] - Quote
A restructuring of the Conference has been decided upon internally based upon feedback and internal discussion, below is the proposed restructuring of the Conference in terms of voting representation and tallying:
Each delegate will need to register a group they intend to participate on behalf of from below:
Amarr Empire Gallente Federation Minmatar Republic Caldari State Indepent Interests (includes pirate factions, independent capsuleer interests, corporate interests, etc)
Each of these groups is provided a total voting power of 10. Each delegate within each voting bloc will have an individual voting power equal to 10 divided by the number of delegates participating under the group. (So a group with five delegates representing it would have a voting power of 2 for each individual within it).
This will allow each individual within a voting bloc to maintain their individual voting power and vote according to their own convictions and stances without having to vote in party with their bloc but also limit the ability of one voter bloc overpowering another simply by having more representation.
It is our sincere hope that this restructuring serves the conference and its delegates more effectively and allows for a more even and fair representation of each involved group.
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Tabor Murn
Kaitaua Whamere
106
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Posted - 2015.05.15 17:03:40 -
[146] - Quote
Leopold Caine wrote:Tabor Murn wrote: It's quite clear what sort of peace your lot are after. The same as always. You wish to get your way and everyone else must bend their knee to your wishes.
While you're at it, you should go and hold Tiberious' hand regarding his 'PPC organizers are Angel sympathizers' conspiracy theory. You do understand the person who was in charge of approving admittances to the conference is a Federal loyalist and ethnic Gallente himself, right?
Mr. Caine. My objection was not with the process by which delegates were approved, but with the imbalanced voting procedures initially in place and the inevitable abuse of that imbalance by whichever party was in the majority. M. Antolliere and the other organizers of the event are graciously making an effort to correct the previous problems with the conference.
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Farlas Ibana
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.05.15 17:27:48 -
[147] - Quote
Why is the Veldnaught, - the only cap ship in hi-sec - in Pakhshi today?
And why is heading for the station housing the peace conference at full sub light speed?
. . . . . . . . . . OH NO, NOT AGAIN . . . . . !!!! |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
370
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Posted - 2015.05.15 17:43:34 -
[148] - Quote
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote:Jili Tonari wrote:This is a noble effort but...
Can this conference take all Matari from the Empire and send them home?
Can this conference give the Caldari people their homeworld?
Can this conference end the border wars?
Can this conference end organized piracy?
Can this conference communicate with Drifters?
Can this conference save the Jove (if it is not already too late)?
Can this conference end slavery?
Can the results of this conference sway our peoples or governments?
Is this more than an exercise in ego?
1: 5% Chance 2: 95% Chance 4: 100% Chance 5: 50-50 (Because apparently there are pirates as delegates) 6: 0% Chance (not a goal) 7: Unknown 8: Don't put your hopes on it. 9: 50% Chance 10: Not at all. 1 and 3 don't mesh my friend.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
460
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Posted - 2015.05.15 18:15:30 -
[149] - Quote
Published with permission from the standing Chair of the Conference:
Letter wrote: The Chair wishes to address the Matari delegates who walked out of the Conference. At the start of tonight's session, the Chair will be issuing a full, frank apology to the issue of Matari under-representation in the voting system I inherited. Just as you were free to leave as was your right and will, if you will hear the Commission's words, you are free to return. I will be ordering immediately after the apology is read out for it to be included in the minutes of the session, in full, and published by Mr Antolliere on the IGS.
Lastly, the Chair will begin this session by revisiting those Commissions that caused the Matari walk out. It is understood Delegate Ayallah, by her IGS post, has worked hard with the other Delegates to propose a new Commission, this will be floored and voted upon using the new method. I also invite Delegate Tabor Murn to address the Conference in the same light.
Once revisitations are done, if there is time the session will be dedicated to further Commissions. Due to the recent delays to the normal scheduling of the sessions, the planned dinner on the 16th will be held on the 17th to allow one more day of the General Congress in order to elect each Commission's officers.
On a final note, the Chair reminds those Delegates unable to attend a given session, that they are free to mail proposed Commissions over this mailing list, and the Chair will read them out on the Delegate's behalf.
Kind Regards
Utari Onzo Chair of the General Congress
"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
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Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
134
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Posted - 2015.05.15 19:32:32 -
[150] - Quote
I sent a commission through mail. No one has responded. It was on Day 3.
As some of the less proper would say: "Just sayin'" |
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